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Understanding how cis people think

Started by ImagineKate, October 22, 2014, 06:51:39 AM

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ImagineKate

My wife and I are still fighting a lot. One minute she is cool and accepting and another we are like oil and water.

I asked her last night if she ever thought about what it was like to live as a man and to be a man. She said it never crossed her mind even once. I asked her if she was sure and I found that amazing because all my life I have wanted to be a girl/woman and i think about it pretty much constantly.  I thought most people thought about it at least once. I was hoping she would understand but having never had the thoughts and dysphoria she doesn't.

I am wondering if it really is like this in the cis world. Don't people at least think about their gender at least once in their lives?
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Ms Grace

To be honest, I can believe it. If they're comfortable being the gender they are the thought of actually wanting to be the other gender has probably never entered their mind in any notably serious way.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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Mark3

I don't really know how CIS peeps think of it themselves.? Some I know have told me they have fantasized about being the opposite sex..
Most others I know though, seem indifferent to the whole concept.? They may be accepting of me or others, probably are,
but it has nothing to do with their real lives or to them, so it's just like any other minority, they empathize somewhat, but can't imagine themselves as one of them(us).?
"The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond life and death."
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gennee

I agree that most people seem indifferent to the concept of being the opposite gender. I think some have thought about it but aren't willing to admit it.

:)
Be who you are.
Make a difference by being a difference.   :)

Blog: www.difecta.blogspot.com
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Anna-Maria

Hey :)

Cis people are cis because they never experienced issues with their subconscious sex. What doesn´t mean they don´t have one. They also do but it fits neatless in to their assigned and consciously recognized sex. That´s the whole thing. And the only thing we differ from them. We have the struggle with our subconscious sex that tells us, our body should be shaped differently. More female or more male likewise.

Julia Serano wrote about this in her book "Whipping Girl" and I just can recommend it to read. You´ll learn alot about Cis-Sexism, Cis-Sexual Assumption, and subconscious sex.

In one case she made a test with an almost cis auditory. She asked them, if they would agree to transition if she would grant them USD 10 mn for doing it. Noone agreed? She then asked individuals why they denied to enter the deal. The answer has been unisono and revealing: "Because I am a woman/man! It just would not feel right!"

Here we go with cis-subconscious sex.

Normally they´re not aware of it, like heteros were not aware of their sexual orientation  30 years ago. And that´s also the main reason why it is so hard for them to understand trans people.

xoxo
"Think pink, but don´t wear it"
Karl Lagerfeld







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suzifrommd

Quote from: Anna-Maria on October 22, 2014, 11:24:13 AM
Cis people are cis because they never experienced issues with their subconscious sex.

This is right on the money.

They rationalize their gender identity. "I was socialized that way." "Women are so much more understanding than men" (or from the males, "I just don't understand women they way I do men"), etc., when really it's their subconscious gender that has them associating and expressing their gender as a member of their birth sex.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Sosophia

so we are discriminated for being more aware ?
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Sosophia on October 22, 2014, 12:51:44 PM
so we are discriminated for being more aware ?

We are discriminated against because people don't understand why we do what we do.

Partly our fault. We've abdicated the responsibility of educating people about us and let the news media do it for us.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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CalmRage

an unfitting forum member's 0,02$

who says CIS-people never question their gender? I have and i am cis and i AM NOT in denial regarding my gender.
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cynthiaverdejo

I'm more transgender than I'd like to admit bit some people who are cisgender do wonder about their gender. Just because they decide they are not trans, we shouldn't assume all cisgender don't ask questions about themselves.
  We can't understand what they must go through, because we're not in their shoes and vice versa.
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Sosophia

often it felt to me that peoples dont want to be "educated" about it that once i m out there sigh they go back to how it was before  in there mind , too big to consider seriously ,  would changes things in their psyche and tough that they dont want changed it could alienate them in somes ways socialy , but i v come to respect that  even if its a pain to live with , and i would feel like i m too aggressive towards them , but maybe its just because its mostly like this in my family i see things this way.
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Chloe

Quote from: Sosophia on October 22, 2014, 12:51:44 PM
so we are discriminated for being more aware ?

From a random radio show I overheard while in Phoenix:

"" Act like a Lady but think like a man ""

Now I ask you, who do you think they were talking to and which do you think is rarer??

( ps edit: in terms of heightened 'awareness' transpeople transcend cis ways of thinking why would anyone think they are anymore 'normal' than us?? )
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
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Sosophia

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Paige

I'm guessing like most things in this world this isn't black and white.   Just like some people dysphoria seem to be different then others, I would bet that there are some cisgender people who've occasionally thought about being the other gender and other who haven't.  There's probably a spectrum where people fall on.   I'm just guessing but I would think there's more than the two options of either you have dysphoria or you've never had any gender confusion in your life.  Probably the non-binaries on Susan's can speak best about this. 

Perhaps the other thing to think about is how honest cisgender people are going to answer that question.  Considering that society is far from being totally accepting, I wouldn't be very surprised if a lot of cisgender people would never admit it even if they thought about it.

Paige :)
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Foxglove

Quote from: Anna-Maria on October 22, 2014, 11:24:13 AM
Hey :)

Cis people are cis because they never experienced issues with their subconscious sex. What doesn´t mean they don´t have one. They also do but it fits neatless in to their assigned and consciously recognized sex. That´s the whole thing. . .

I think this is a very good post.

You can't read people's minds and so it's impossible to know what they're really thinking unless you ask them--and a lot of them couldn't give you an answer if you did.  But from what I've seen of cispeople's responses to TGism, it seems to me that the key to their thinking is basically simple: they link the notion of gender to the genitalia alone.  That is, they don't make the distinction we make between "gender" (which is psychological) and "sex" (which is physiological).

We know that there is a psychological dimension to gender (and some unfortunate cispeople like David Reimer also discover that fact), but I think that most cispeople are either unaware of that dimension or they don't realize the importance of it or they simply don't think about it much because they don't have to.  After all, given that their bodies match their minds, their bodies give them all the data they need.  The body is immediate, pressing, visible, tangible.  It tells them all they need to know so why look further?

Over and over and over (ad nauseam) you will hear them assert that if you have male equipment, you're male, and if you have female equipment, you're female.  For so many of them it's that simple.  It's your genitalia alone that determine what you are.  Either they cannot grasp what you're telling them about the psychology, or they simply dismiss it as a mental disorder.

You can see some of their thinking in the misconceptions they have about us.  E.g., a lot of them think that we think that by having SRS you change from a woman to a man or from a man to a woman.  I.e., they seem to think that we're normal men and women like them who have surgery and then claim to be normal women and men like them.  Our mental disorder lies in the fact that we want to be other than we are.  Their mistake lies in their failure to grasp the importance of the psychological facet of gender.  They think we're "men who want to be women" or "women who want to be men".  They don't really grasp the basic notion of TGism.

We transpeople are always (painfully) aware of the psychological dimension of gender because our circumstances give us no choice.  But cispeople don't have the same pressing need.

And finally the notion that you can be psychologically male and physically female or psychologically female and physically male is so outlandish and repugnant to them that many of them don't even want to make the effort to grasp it.
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Christine Eryn

My sister and parents think of things as being absolutely black or white, there is no on the fence for them. They are old fashioned and brought up in very conservative ways. Even nowadays, my sister (who is older than me) says things like "chick flicks are not for guys" and "girls don't drive cars like that" and other nonsense.  ??? Some people can't get it in their minds others are different.
"There was a sculptor, and he found this stone, a special stone. He dragged it home and he worked on it for months, until he finally finished. When he was ready he showed it to his friends and they said he had created a great statue. And the sculptor said he hadn't created anything, the statue was always there, he just cleared away the small peices." Rambo III
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cynthiaverdejo

It's all very concrete to people sometimes and we probably function on another level. I've always associated my gender identity to my body but I've learned that it's not the case for me.

I'm physically happy but I also suspect I'm genderqueer because I think females are a certain way and males are another way.
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Sephirah

I never really think too much about my head, or arm, until it starts aching. Then the only thing I can think about is how much it hurts and how much I want it to stop hurting.

I guess people only think about certain things when they have a reason to think about certain things. When everything's working as intended, we're far too busy with more pressing matters. When something becomes a more pressing matter... then we start to think about it. How many folk do you hear who have completed transition and become themselves say that it's something that just doesn't play on their mind anymore? Isn't that one of the end goals? To be able to not think about it anymore?
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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Anna-Maria

Quote from: Foxglove on October 22, 2014, 02:11:20 PM
I think this is a very good post.

You can't read people's minds and so it's impossible to know what they're really thinking unless you ask them--and a lot of them couldn't give you an answer if you did.  But from what I've seen of cispeople's responses to TGism, it seems to me that the key to their thinking is basically simple: they link the notion of gender to the genitalia alone.  That is, they don't make the distinction we make between "gender" (which is psychological) and "sex" (which is physiological).

We know that there is a psychological dimension to gender (and some unfortunate cispeople like David Reimer also discover that fact), but I think that most cispeople are either unaware of that dimension or they don't realize the importance of it or they simply don't think about it much because they don't have to.  After all, given that their bodies match their minds, their bodies give them all the data they need.  The body is immediate, pressing, visible, tangible.  It tells them all they need to know so why look further?

Over and over and over (ad nauseam) you will hear them assert that if you have male equipment, you're male, and if you have female equipment, you're female.  For so many of them it's that simple.  It's your genitalia alone that determine what you are.  Either they cannot grasp what you're telling them about the psychology, or they simply dismiss it as a mental disorder.

You can see some of their thinking in the misconceptions they have about us.  E.g., a lot of them think that we think that by having SRS you change from a woman to a man or from a man to a woman.  I.e., they seem to think that we're normal men and women like them who have surgery and then claim to be normal women and men like them.  Our mental disorder lies in the fact that we want to be other than we are.  Their mistake lies in their failure to grasp the importance of the psychological facet of gender.  They think we're "men who want to be women" or "women who want to be men".  They don't really grasp the basic notion of TGism.

We transpeople are always (painfully) aware of the psychological dimension of gender because our circumstances give us no choice.  But cispeople don't have the same pressing need.

And finally the notion that you can be psychologically male and physically female or psychologically female and physically male is so outlandish and repugnant to them that many of them don't even want to make the effort to grasp it.

Absolutely, and good to quote David Reimer (and notable others). What happened to them? They were MAAB and their genitalia were irreparapably destroyed during circumcision or their male genitalia was dramatically underdeveloped, that´s why doctors decided to model them female genitalia and let them grow up as girls. Despite having grown up as girls and being sozialized as girls they all came to recognize, sooner or later, that they should be male. That´s subconscious sex. The brain is neurologically linked to the gender it belongs, that´s also the main reason Gender Dyshporia never dissapears, only exacerbates over time. So was my experience with Gender Dysphoria. The brain, your subconsciousness expect your body to be shaped in a particular way and if it doesn´t fit, because your brain is female linked while your body is male, you´re Trans.

Why do Cis people  mix up genitalias with sex and gender? Why do they think being FAAB/MAAB makes you a woman/man regardless what you´re feeling inside? It´s exactly because of what I described in my previous post. Their brain accepts the body as it is, because the body is shaped the way the brain expects it to be. The subconscious sex will never come to a conscious level as it does in Trans people. That´s also the reason why they can´t understand Trans people. Cis people just don´t have a need for transitioning. They feel complete and this sense of completeness derives directly from the assigned sex being in line with the subconscious sex. For them the thought of changing one´s sex is just monstrous; they wouldn´t do it for whatever you may promise them to gain.

As long as Cis people are unaware about having a subconscious sex too, we will have to face Cis-Sexism and arrogance. This culminates in the perception that Cis genders and bodies are more "natural" than Trans ones. Going back 30 years and you might meet honorable citizens citing that their being heterosexual is natural compared to homosexuality, which is something artificial, unnatural and abnormal. The same argumentation we´re facing now in terms of gender and sex.

Again, as long as Cis people believe that they are the normality, that their genders are natural and denying the fact that also they have a subconscious sex, we have to face Cis-Sexism, prejudice, bigotry and hate.

xoxo
"Think pink, but don´t wear it"
Karl Lagerfeld







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Sheelah

Pardon my ignorance.
What does Cis mean?
Kisses
Sheelah
Ventura, Ca
Kisses,
Sheelah
Ventura, Ca.
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