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Endocrinology text confirms medical hormones can cause transsexuality?

Started by HughE, November 04, 2014, 08:47:06 AM

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HughE

Here is a link to the first part of chapter 23 from Williams Endocrinology, "Development of Reproductive Systems". It explains in an amazing level of detail how the process of sexual development in the unborn child takes place, and how the whole thing is driven by hormones.

https://www.inkling.com/read/williams-textbook-of-endocrinology-melmed-polonsky-larsen-kronenberg-12th/chapter-23/development-of-reproductive

I think the information given there makes a very strong case that administering estrogens or progestins to a pregnant woman during the second half of the pregnancy, can produce people who appear to be male but have female brains.

First of all, there's a diagram covering the key events as far as physical male development are concerned:

Fig 23-1 "Events temporally related to sex differentiation in the male fetus"

This shows that differentiation of the male genitalia is complete by 13 weeks after conception, and the only things going on for the remainder of the pregnancy as far as physical sexual development is concerned are: Testis descent, and "External genital growth". My interpretation of this, is that if you have normal testosterone for the first 13 weeks, but then something goes drastically wrong with your testosterone production later on in the pregnancy, there won't be much physical indication that anything untoward has occurred. The only signs that anything has gone wrong are that your penis could end up shorter than it would otherwise have done, and that you might have abnormalities associated with maldescent of the testicles.

Reading through the next few sections makes it clear that any fetus has the potential to develop as either male or female irrespective of genotype; that the Y chromosome contains very few genes, and that its main function is to cause the gonads to develop as testicles rather than ovaries; and that the sex you develop as (your phenotypic sex) is entirely determined by what hormones are present during your prenatal development.

"The developing gonad produces several steroid and peptide hormones that mediate sexual differentiation and result in the phenotypic sex seen at birth. Alfred Jost first showed the importance of fetal testicular androgens in this process in 1947.12 In his classic experiments, Jost demonstrated that surgical removal of the gonads during embryonic development of the rabbit resulted in development of female reproductive characteristics, regardless of  chromosomal sex of the embryo."

Now we get to a really key bit of information.

Fetal Leydig Cells and Steroidogenesis
Fetal Leydig cells develop within the interstitium of the developing testis and secrete androgens by 8 to 9 weeks' postconception (see Fig. 23-1 ).164 Luteinizing hormone/human chorionic gonadotropin (LH/hCG) receptors are present on the Leydig cells only from 10 to 12 weeks' post-conception, suggesting that the initial secretion of testosterone is independent of hCG and fetal LH. A massive expansion in fetal Leydig cells occurs between 14 and 18 weeks' gestation, resulting in marked increase in testosterone secretion at about 16 weeks.165,166 Fetal Leydig cell steroidogenesis is stimulated by placental hCG during the first two trimesters of pregnancy, but the developing hypothalamic-gonadotroph system produces significant amounts of LH from about 20 weeks' gestation.167

In other words, around 20 weeks after conception, there's a transition from processes independent of the fetal pituitary gland and its secretion of LH, to pituitary LH as the driver of testosterone production. This means that exposing a male fetus to a drug that specifically interferes with pituitary LH synthesis will have little effect on testosterone production for the first 20 weeks after conception, but from about 20 weeks onward, will start to impact testosterone production more and more. It's difficult to overstate the importance of this fact in relation to synthetic female hormones (estrogens and progestins) as a cause of MTF transsexuality.

Although Williams doesn't have much to say about when the brain development responsible for gender identity later in life takes place, there's a paper I linked to earlier discussing the effects of testosterone on brain masculinization in Rhesus monkeys:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/

In the Rhesus monkey, testosterone exposure during the first half of the pregnancy mainly affects genital development, whereas in the second half of the pregnancy, the main effects are to drive male brain development. Similar results are seen in sheep. If the same applies to human beings (and why wouldn't it?), then any drug that interferes with LH production will, if it's given during the second half of the pregnancy to a woman whose unborn baby happens to be male, be likely to result in a person who appears to be male, but whose brain has developed as female.

Both estrogens and progestins are known to interfere with LH synthesis, and have been (and in some cases still are being) given to pregnant women during the second half of the pregnancy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progestogen#As_antigonadotropins

To me it looks like a massive mistake has been made, one that has been ongoing for decades. Considering how widely used these substances are, there must be a very large number of people alive today who've already been exposed -  people who look male, but had some or all of their sexually dimorphic brain development occur as female. This is most likely something that's continuing to happen even now. No wonder transsexuality and gender variance have become so much more common in recent years.

What do people here think? Does what I'm saying make sense? If so, what to do about it?
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PinkCloud

My mother did not use anything at the time she was pregnant of me. I was born 15 months after my sister. Now there is a theory that claims that when you are born so quickly after a female birth, some hormones might still be lingering around in the womb affecting the outcome of the second birth, especially so quickly after the first birth. Since it seems all hormone induced, who knows...  :)
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Raelyn2

That makes sense to me. My mom was on all sorts of hormones for 8 year trying to get pregnant. Once pregnant with me she had to stay in bed and on other drugs to keep from miscarrying. She had 2 miscarriages prior. After I was born she immediately got pregnant again for my sister with the same difficulties. She says that she felt like a science project.  No telling what kind of garbage they were giving her back then.
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Joelene9

  DES, a strong estrogen was prescribed to women from 1948 to 1971 to prevent miscarriages. A large number of us "Boomers" have noticed that the transgender, fertility and sexual malfunctions is probably brought on with this drug in both sexes. This study adds to that. It is hard, if not impossible to look at out mothers' medical files whether or not they took the drug while pregnant with us. A lot of litigation is the cause of the sealing of the medical histories. These histories may be opened after the Boomers are long gone and our current situations may not be recorded properly.

Joelene
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Raelyn2

That's lovely isn't it. Kind of like asbestos. Nah, don't worry. This is perfectly safe. Everyone will be fine. 
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Jill F

I'm pretty sure I'm a DES casualty.  When I had my orchi, I told my doc that one of them had vestigial "girl parts" removed from it.  He didn't get into details, but he said what was left of them was "umm, interesting".  My brother had cryptorchidism, but seems cool with being a cisguy.

And people like to hate us, discriminate against us and marginalize us for something we were born with.  Nice. 
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Raelyn2

People hate because deep down they are scared they have some of the same thoughts and feelings.  Cast the first stone; judge not, lest ye be judged; or the Harper Valley PTA song. If they aren't scared then why get so worked up?
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Raelyn2

I apologize, I pushed this off topic. That is a great article and thank you Hughe for posting it.
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Raelyn2

If a fetus has the chance of being miscarried the doctors and expecting mothers are going to do whatever they can to save the baby. It would be hard to tell the mother that her child may die due to the fear of hormone imbalances. That would cause fire in the streets for sure.
If this is a cause, then it didn't stop in '71.
I question whether the percentage of people that are transgender is going up or going down. Are there more now because people are more willing to admit it or because there are just simply more people in the world?
Were the fetuses in the 1800's miscarried in those cases with a result of fewer instances of ->-bleeped-<-?
Does anything they give the mother really help her carry to full term? Would it have survived if nothing were done? Are they just throwing a handful of gravel hoping to hit the target?
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carrie359

Such an interesting article.. thanks for sharing.  I was born 1959... and have female digit ratio in both hands over 1.0... and a woman's carry handle..which I just found out about not long ago.
My soon to be ex thinks my Mother took DES but she is not here to confirm.  My Mom smoked so may have been considered higher risk..
My sis which is two years younger had all kinds of DES issues all her life ...but until now and my research never knew it could have been DES.
Anyway..love the research.. so interesting..
Carrie
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Raelyn2

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carrie359

Toni,
No worries.. I did not know about it either.. but not everyone will have it.
If you hold your hands at your side.. and then face the palms of your hands forward.. most women's arms will stick out at about a 30 degree angle.
If you google it you will find but not much on it out there.  Women have for a reason.. and its all about breast feeding....
I used to body build and the angle of my arms made it hard to do some of the things other guys did.. I never knew why.. until now.  Here is a link to a study comparing males to females mine happens to be above average even for a female.. basically I fall into the highest angle for a female.. and with finger digit ratio..
http://www.scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=jms.2010.40.44
Carrie

Here is the conclusion of the article.. :
CONCLUSION

In conclusion, this study demonstrated that the carrying angle is significantly greater in females than in males, so it can be considered as a secondary sex character. The recorded measurements might be helpful in management of disorders of the elbow and its reconstruction after fractures. Moreover, the proposed method in this study is simple, easy and accurate as it alleviates the effect of any deviation of long bones of the arm and forearm
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Jill F

Quote from: carrie359 on November 08, 2014, 02:29:00 PM
Toni,
No worries.. I did not know about it either.. but not everyone will have it.
If you hold your hands at your side.. and then face the palms of your hands forward.. most women's arms will stick out at about a 30 degree angle.
If you google it you will find but not much on it out there.  Women have for a reason.. and its all about breast feeding....
I used to body build and the angle of my arms made it hard to do some of the things other guys did.. I never knew why.. until now.
Carrie

I never knew about that.  Just confirmed this in the mirror.  Maybe that's why I (as my dad put it) "throw like a girl".  Mind blown.
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helen2010

Great post and a very good read.  The evidence continues to mount.  It really doesn't change things but brain gendering is very real.

Safe travels

Aisla
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carrie359

Quote from: Aisla on November 08, 2014, 02:34:27 PM
Great post and a very good read.  The evidence continues to mount.  It really doesn't change things but brain gendering is very real.

Safe travels

Aisla

I wish we had the internet when we were kids.. ugh.. I would have been fighting to get hormones at a very young age.. but then I would not have kids.. today.. so I suppose I am not complaining..
Just going to push on and live.. a great life..
Carrie
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Raelyn2

That's crazy, I totally have a large carrying angle. I'm not sure about the upper arm to forearm ratio. I can't find any examples online to compare.
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