Voice training, who and what

[Stephe]

Most people out there are going to register as one gender or the other and the last thing on there mind is if someone is transgender, it's just not on their radar unless they are looking for it.

Unless you live in San Fransisco 

[suzifrommd]

I used CandiFLA. I found it hard to figure out, but once I did, everything that came out of my mouth sounded feminine.

[ImagineKate]

One of the employees at one of my clients has a 20 year old cis-daughter who has an extremely natural deep voice, deeper than a lot of cis-men. If you heard her from the next room or on the phone, you would swear male (or maybe FTM) despite her resonance being on the feminine side. However when your looking at her and hearing her voice, you don't think male because the brain see female and voice becomes female.

In my case it is important that I sound unmistakeably female when people don't see me, such as on the telephone. This is why it is very important for me to get my voice down right. It is also important for me to just do this naturally without even thinking about it. I can probably accomplish this with training? Let's see if I can.

[anjaq]

Stephe - may I ask you something baout your voice - I have not heard it yet, but did you analyze it before the training? What was your original pitch? I found that for people with an above average male pitch range (130-150 Hz) it seems to be a lot easier to just do it with training. Getting from there to 180+ seems to work fine. Those that are in the lower male range (100-130 Hz) originally seem to struggle more. I rarely heard of someone coming from that range saying that having a female voice without long term effort was well achieved. For me it was like that - I managed but the constant strain cost me voice health in the long run because I tried to push it up from my original 100-110 Hz voice :\

Just as with the face, it is with voice as well. There are always some ciswomen who have a few of the male markers - but usually those are only a few and are well compensated. Plus I know that for example Dr Kim does surgery as well on Ciswomen who feel their voice is annoying because they are misgendered on the phone. I think to rely on visual appearance is not the best idea. Again from my experience, my voice was like that - as long as I was visible, people gendered me correctly, in darkness or when people are standing behind me or on the phone, I was misgendered - and consequently once I was in sight people were looking VERY closely at my appearance - and I dont have the advantage that this is so perfect that it will eleiminate all doubt.

My feeling is that voice surgery alone cannot work. It HAS to be supplemented by voice training. So one needs the voice training in any case. if one is really happy after doing that, its fine, but I think if it still is hard to keep up, if it is straining too much or if it is still low enough to be annoying because of its ambiguity - I tend to think nowadays that a good voice surgery can be an option to make live easier.

In my case it is important that I sound unmistakeably female when people don't see me, such as on the telephone. This is why it is very important for me to get my voice down right. It is also important for me to just do this naturally without even thinking about it. I can probably accomplish this with training? Let's see if I can.

I totally understand. Doing it naturally, in a relaxed way, without straining, without conscious control and without slips - and not ambiguous and with the need to rely on other gender markers. A no-worry result, that is desireable - something you totally can forget about. I guess with enough training a lot can become habit, but if the habit is counteracting physiology, it may still not always work in the long run?

I will listen and maybe audio reply to the vocal part of the discussion later when I am at home

[Stephe]

My feeling is that voice surgery alone cannot work. It HAS to be supplemented by voice training. So one needs the voice training in any case. if one is really happy after doing that, its fine,

If you note, I am talking to someone here who has done no serious voice training whatsoever and is already talking about saving the money up for surgery (ahead of FFS or other things she needs/wants). If this person had said "I've been seeing a voice therapist twice a month for a year, am living full time so I get a lot of practice and I still get misgendered", I wouldn't have said what I did.

My main point is I notice that VERY few transwomen seem to be willing to pay for the services of a professional voice therapist and expect to learn this from watching utube videos with no feedback.  It's so much easier when a therapist who understands this stuff is listening and can then say "OK this week I want you to work on _____" because they can -hear- what the problem is. My pitch is still lower than ideal but I haven't been misgendered on the phone in years and part of my job is answering the phone all day. Inflection and intonation is a huge part of this and it's very difficult to sort that out on your own. I also learned other small things from her like how to feminize my cough, a loud obviously male cough is something you don't want to do sitting in a stall in a crowded ladies room.   

And yes if you are living full time, your female voice just becomes your natural voice without thought. It's no different than everything else you have to relearn, how to sit, stand, walk, etc. I would have a hard time -finding- my old male voice at this point.

[suzifrommd]

It's so much easier when a therapist who understands this stuff is listening and can then say "OK this week I want you to work on _____" because they can -hear- what the problem is.

I hope that's true for most folks. Wasn't for me. Everything I learned, I learned from youtube and reading posts here. I went to a professional speech therapist whose specialty is working with trans women. I found her advice unhelpful and counterproductive, and I do better ignoring it.

[anjaq]

If you note, I am talking to someone here who has done no serious voice training whatsoever and is already talking about saving the money up for surgery

Yes, that is true - but she did say she wants to try voice training first, just wants to keep that surgical option open and if needed have the money at hand - if not, she can use it for FFS or GRS

My main point is I notice that VERY few transwomen seem to be willing to pay for the services of a professional voice therapist and expect to learn this from watching utube videos with no feedback.  It's so much easier when a therapist who understands this stuff is listening and can then say "OK this week I want you to work on _____" because they can -hear- what the problem is.

Yes - ideally. I am sometimes not sure how good mine is, she basically asks me what *I* want to work on. But then she and a few others think my voice is rather ok, so maybe thats why.
But I agree that simply watching some youtube videos are not enough and voice is a hugely important thing. I dont see too many people rushing towards surgery yet, as there still is a widespread fear of it around and I believe more people are willing to just keep an insufficiently feminized voice rather than having surgery (and in many cases also rather than doing a lot of voice therapy)

My pitch is still lower than ideal but I haven't been misgendered on the phone in years and part of my job is answering the phone all day. Inflection and intonation is a huge part of this and it's very difficult to sort that out on your own. I also learned other small things from her like how to feminize my cough, a loud obviously male cough is something you don't want to do sitting in a stall in a crowded ladies room.   

That would be horrible indeed. I am not sure how my cough Is, I guess I never really gave so much about it :\ - Voice therapists here do not seem to have that issue in the program.
I think intonation and inflection (prosody) is a huge part. I believe however that I am struggling a bit with it because I am at the samt time watching resonance and pitch. I feel like I am already pushing my pitch up quite a bit, to go up even more as part of speech melody seems to be harder. If I drop my pitch to the original, I have a wider range of pitches I can use for that, but below a certain point (according to my speech therapist around 140 Hz) the perception of my voice flips to male again, no matter what else I do - so that is really something that I dont know how to solve with speech therapy.
As I said, for some, 140 Hz is already their low "male" pitch, so in that case there would not be an issue. This is why I asked you about your original pitch. If it was in that range, I think you may have an advantage. The difference between 110 and 140 Hz may not be huge but it is very much in a crucial area :\

And yes if you are living full time, your female voice just becomes your natural voice without thought. It's no different than everything else you have to relearn, how to sit, stand, walk, etc. I would have a hard time -finding- my old male voice at this point.

Hmm - ok.
I am not sure if I relearned sitting, standing and such really... I think this is easier - just relax and it works. With voice, just relaxing means to go into a low pitched voice. The changes in resonance and probably also prosody seem to "stick" - I treid to make a really male voice and could not produce anything that was not at least more androgynous - at low pitches it works more towards being a male voice. But it is hard to do. Resonance and tone are just burned into my head it seems. But for some reason pitch does not work that way. To a degree it does - I usually average 30 Hz higher than my original relaxed speech, but that is barely enough, on some occasions it gets better and on some it gets worse. My theory is that this is possible what makes some people so frustrated with the concept of "with voice therapy everyone can get a feminine voice" - it works well if the voice originally was close to gender neutral range, it works only with constant effort if the voice was in the lower male range. It is not impossible to get a feminine voice. I can squeak and I can talk more feminine if I want to but its not coming naturally and effortlessly. Without effort, the best I seem to be able to do is to get a very low pitched "radio speaker" female voice.[/quote]

[ImagineKate]

If you note, I am talking to someone here who has done no serious voice training whatsoever and is already talking about saving the money up for surgery (ahead of FFS or other things she needs/wants).

Yes, I am, and I don't see anything wrong with planning ahead. Surgery is a plan B, but from the successes here I can see it becoming a supplement to voice training which I had planned to do anyway. But I plan ahead, that's just how I am.

As I've mentioned before - FFS is not really that important to me. In fact, not even GRS/SRS is. I do plan to get those eventually but let's be realistic - if I don't visually pass 100% but I open my mouth and out comes an unmistakeably feminine voice, I will definitely pass. As I've also said, I have a lot of situations where I am heard and not seen, and I don't want to get "sir'ed" for those.

If this person had said "I've been seeing a voice therapist twice a month for a year, am living full time so I get a lot of practice and I still get misgendered", I wouldn't have said what I did.

I don't see how this approach would even work. It's like the approach of 1 year RLE before starting HRT. To me this is "winging it" because I'm trying out something which may or may not work without a plan B. Also, given some of my medical conditions it is not unwise to enquire about pre-requisites so I can incorporate it into my overall health plan.

My main point is I notice that VERY few transwomen seem to be willing to pay for the services of a professional voice therapist and expect to learn this from watching utube videos with no feedback.  It's so much easier when a therapist who understands this stuff is listening and can then say "OK this week I want you to work on _____" because they can -hear- what the problem is. My pitch is still lower than ideal but I haven't been misgendered on the phone in years and part of my job is answering the phone all day. Inflection and intonation is a huge part of this and it's very difficult to sort that out on your own. I also learned other small things from her like how to feminize my cough, a loud obviously male cough is something you don't want to do sitting in a stall in a crowded ladies room.   

I actually am seeking out the services of a speech pathologist. I was actually exploring the full spectrum including the free and not so free options, along with surgical options. I was just inquiring as to what works for everyone. As stated, I am a complete newbie to this. Anyway, my therapist has referred me to a speech pathologist who I am setting up an appointment with. It's also why I've considered Kathe Perez, because of her professional credentials.

And yes if you are living full time, your female voice just becomes your natural voice without thought. It's no different than everything else you have to relearn, how to sit, stand, walk, etc. I would have a hard time -finding- my old male voice at this point.

At the same time I see a good few trans women who, despite looking absolutely gorgeous, remove all doubt that they are trans when they open their mouths. These are people who have seen speech pathologists, not just those who DIY.

[ImagineKate]

I'm sorry but I simply have to disagree. Even if the surgery has zero risks, unless you are flush with cash, it seems like a bad priority to pick vocal surgery over other transition expenses for this perceived  "slipping back", which I've never experienced. If you are living full time, you get plenty of practice daily just living. The only way I could see slipping back would be someone living part time trying to flip back and forth between a male and a female voice.

If you are going to spend some money, spend it on some personal -in RL- voice training and go as far as you can with that before you have your voice surgically altered. Don't just do a few online voice courses or watching fee youtube videos and assume that is as good as it will get.  As someone else said, your voice isn't that far off now.

That higher voice takes a conscious effort. I also just listened at work, and wow, the sound is terrible. I wasn't using a good setup to record, just what I thought was a good headset (Heil with a HC-5 wide range element) but it was mismatched to the computer. I'll probably try the sound booth at work and see how that goes.

Interestingly enough I can get "ma'med" at the drive thru with enough effort, or if I've been stressed (argument with wife, usually) I go into a high pitched voice. I just wish I could make it stick.

My glasses aren't helping either. They make me sound all nasal and stuff. I need new ones anyway, or I could get some contacts.

I have to disagree with that recording, it sounds awful. It screams "guy" and "forcing it" at every turn...

[anjaq]

As I've mentioned before - FFS is not really that important to me. In fact, not even GRS/SRS is. I do plan to get those eventually but let's be realistic - if I don't visually pass 100% but I open my mouth and out comes an unmistakeably feminine voice, I will definitely pass.

Yes, I believe this. I think due to the media people are somehow having that image in the head of the gorgeous woman who is however trans (OMG!) and the only way to tell it is by the voice or the adams apple (or adams apple removal scar). So they would much rather suspect a woman who looks perfectly female to be trans if the voice is really off than an masculine woman whose voice is unmistakeably female.

I don't see how this approach would even work. It's like the approach of 1 year RLE before starting HRT.

Well not quite because without HRT you cannot get the changes you need, with voice therapy you are seeing some changes that you will need - but yes - if one has the possibility, it does pay off to get informed, save money and consider this option, so that whole process is not just starting in case speech therapy alone is unsatisfactory.

[anjaq]

Ok. I had the chance now to hear the voice recordings. Kate, your original voice is at 120 Hz which is just a bit higher than mine which was at 110 Hz. Your resonance and inflection int he first recording are rather male-ish, I am sorry. The second recording is better in some ways, pitch is more at 150-160 Hz - Which again is the pitch increase I have seen go well for many without straining too much. In my case I can comfortably speak at 140-150 Hz. Sadly that is still a bit on th elow side, but of course the parameters from voice therapy are very important there - if you get the 160 Hz and would have a good resonance it would go long ways. Also in the second recording you are using your vocal range more freely, giving more pitch variation - a lot more. I think you are on the right way there, but it will be a bit more training before the voice can clearly be identified as female

Julia from Madrid - your voice really is very good. What do you mean by "pretty much just voice training" - what else did you do? - Your pitch is nicely at 200 Hz, which is great and the desire of those like Kate (or me), but so hard to achieve. Can you tell what your original voice was in terms of pitch? Your voice sounds like it was trained to do audio recordings for radio or books or TV - Very good vocalization and cleanliness of the voice. This helps all voices to be better - male and female voices

[anjaq]

So I did some rambling about voice http://vocaroo.com/i/s0NZcWfNZJAu - I guess the content is just me babbling but you can hear my voice there. Average is about 150 Hz but some passages are just back down at the 120 Hz range.

[Stephe]

I don't see how this approach would even work.

It's clear now you know way more about this subject and transition in general than I do. I'm sorry I gave you such poor advice. Good luck!

[ImagineKate]

It's clear now you know way more about this subject and transition in general than I do. I'm sorry I gave you such poor advice. Good luck!

*thud*

Ok I guess

[ImagineKate]

Yes, I believe this. I think due to the media people are somehow having that image in the head of the gorgeous woman who is however trans (OMG!) and the only way to tell it is by the voice or the adams apple (or adams apple removal scar). So they would much rather suspect a woman who looks perfectly female to be trans if the voice is really off than an masculine woman whose voice is unmistakeably female.

Thank you. Someone who understands!

And as I've said - many people know me by my voice alone, rather than seeing me in person. Amateur radio, podcasts and conference calls. I do many of those activities and it is important for me to be gendered unmistakeably female. If I can do that solely with training, great! If I need surgery, well at least I'd have saved the money. If I don't, the money can be used for other stuff. I always believe in being 2 steps ahead. It has worked very well for me in my life.

Well not quite because without HRT you cannot get the changes you need, with voice therapy you are seeing some changes that you will need - but yes - if one has the possibility, it does pay off to get informed, save money and consider this option, so that whole process is not just starting in case speech therapy alone is unsatisfactory.

For sure. So I start off with training AND save money for surgery if needed...

I also do "get" people who view voice surgery as risky and unnecessary. It's the same way that I view breast implants. Plenty of cis women have small breasts, and they are perfectly fine. Breast implants are also only a temporary thing. I don't think I would ever want it unless I needed reconstruction due to breast cancer or similar. But if people want it, and it makes them feel better, great. Their money, their risk, their body... same with me and my voice.

[ImagineKate]

Ok. I had the chance now to hear the voice recordings. Kate, your original voice is at 120 Hz which is just a bit higher than mine which was at 110 Hz. Your resonance and inflection int he first recording are rather male-ish, I am sorry. The second recording is better in some ways, pitch is more at 150-160 Hz - Which again is the pitch increase I have seen go well for many without straining too much. In my case I can comfortably speak at 140-150 Hz. Sadly that is still a bit on th elow side, but of course the parameters from voice therapy are very important there - if you get the 160 Hz and would have a good resonance it would go long ways. Also in the second recording you are using your vocal range more freely, giving more pitch variation - a lot more. I think you are on the right way there, but it will be a bit more training before the voice can clearly be identified as female

Thanks anjaq. I am happy with honest criticism. Be as brutal as you need to be. I'm a big girl, I can take it.

As said, I have zero training and I'm pretty much not really making any effort in the 1st recording. That is my natural speaking voice. The second recording is more or less a halfway try, almost mrs. doubtfire-ish, lol. I know I have a long ways to go, which is why I'm looking at all of my options.

I'm not on HRT yet anyway and I am not presenting female except at home and at my therapist's office, and partially at work. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row and I'll have more voice training by the time I'm ready to go full time.

At this point I'm leaning towards the speech pathologist my gender therapist recommended. I'll give her a try first and see what she says. She is supposed to be pretty good and deals with singers and transgender clients.

Meanwhile I'll try a few more recordings just to see what my voice can do without straining it.

[anjaq]

Haha - yes speaking of being scared of VFS - the surgeon I had a consultation with today told me that 30% of his patients are happy with the voice post op. That are horrible odds... So i guess it makes a huge differenc who you choose

[Jessika]

Thanks anjaq. I am happy with honest criticism. Be as brutal as you need to be. I'm a big girl, I can take it.

As said, I have zero training and I'm pretty much not really making any effort in the 1st recording. That is my natural speaking voice. The second recording is more or less a halfway try, almost mrs. doubtfire-ish, lol. I know I have a long ways to go, which is why I'm looking at all of my options.

I'm not on HRT yet anyway and I am not presenting female except at home and at my therapist's office, and partially at work. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row and I'll have more voice training by the time I'm ready to go full time.

At this point I'm leaning towards the speech pathologist my gender therapist recommended. I'll give her a try first and see what she says. She is supposed to be pretty good and deals with singers and transgender clients.

Meanwhile I'll try a few more recordings just to see what my voice can do without straining it.

I try to practice my voice while I'm on my 5 mile walks. I'm failing at hearing anything that would resemble even an effort. I want a nice voice over time but don't know where to start. So frustrating that I don't even try much at all.

[Seras]

1) Oh my! Julia-Madrid such a refined enunciation :O
You sound like you could (with a *slight* accent adjustment) be a proper English lady. So many people come out sounding like Americans, I love it. You make me feel like a common oik

2) Obviously Kate you do not sound female in either of those recordings. Nice luck on the lack of voicebox though wish I was that lucky. I look like I am halfway through swallowing an ostrich egg. Anyway clearly your pitch is not high enough, nor is your resonance and thus your tone of voice sounding correct. For me pitch was easy, the real challenge was resonance. I say "was" tentatively since my voice is still very much a WIP and I have only just got it to a point where I think it sounds acceptable.


---

Anyway since you asked, this is what I did, over a very long period of time, on and off for about 3 years or longer even maybe (first thing I worked on).

1) Get really anxious and embarrassed about practicing, plus, over the fear of trying in case I failed. All i could really do was sing along with stuff in the car when I was driving. Obviously female musicians. So that was pretty much all I did for a few months. I would occasionally try practicing easy phrases or counting in a high pitch. I didn't even know about resonance at this point. This lasted a long time since I was too scared and embarrassed to even practice properly.

2) I had to go all femmed up for an appointment at the UK GIC (don't ask) so I was worried and wanted to be able to speak, so I practiced non stop for 4 months. I tried loads of stuff. It was like banging my head against a wall. Nothing worked. I tried candifla, I tried that deepstealth stuff, pretty much if it was on youtube or well known at all I got it checked it out and discarded it.

3) After about 4 months I got pissed off. I had been to the appointment and I just didn't speak to anyone except the doc, easy. I quit for a while.

4) I started up again after only dabbling very occasionally at the beginning of the year since I got on hormones and I was gonna need to get this stuff down. I learned more stuff about resonance from some topics on another forum. Learned about keeping up the larynx better and some good exercises on how to do it, like apparantly I have muscles and stuff under my chin between chin and your neck. I finally figured out how to tense them all and stuff to get some control. I still sounded terrible but I kept practicing for a few months and actually made some progress. I did eventually get pissed off again and quit, however I kept doing exercises to pull up the larynx and other such things.

5) I practiced on and off very sporadically between then and about a month ago then I started practicing again and it is like I actually made progress without trying. I honestly think it is all about the muscle control, building and development of that. Maybe HRT matters to some degree too, plus I did give up smoking 3 months ago though I never smoked much anyway. Oh and also, if you are having trouble like I did/am, a whole lot of determination.

---

Anyway here is my current male voice (100% usage IRL so it is not warped or anything from speaking en femme):
https://soundcloud.com/olivia1988-1/startedfromthebottom/s-DG8mH - Average 105hz

Here is probably my best recording so far:
https://soundcloud.com/olivia1988-1/quitegoodnow/s-ecRiu - Average 250hz

I have been told by people on the does my voice pass thread that I sound OK so I guess I am now willing to believe it.
Anyway I hope this convolution was of some use. Really though like I said all about muscle control, at least as far as I can tell anyway.

[Julia-Madrid]

1) Oh my! Julia-Madrid such a refined enunciation :O
You sound like you could (with a *slight* accent adjustment) be a proper English lady. So many people come out sounding like Americans, I love it. You make me feel like a common oik

Thank you darling    I'll never get totally rid of the slight South African edge to it...     But I'd be happy to try being a proper English lady - just help me find a nice single member of the landed gentry....

Your voice sounds pretty good, by the way!

xxx
J