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Does it make sense that the transsexual brain develops in the womb?

Started by noah732, November 07, 2014, 05:55:32 PM

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peky

Quote from: cathyrains on November 11, 2014, 08:30:32 AM
There's a big difference between gender identity and sexual dimorphism.
Unless you want to make an argument for biological essentialism with regards to gender, no  a foetus does not develop a "gender identity" in the womb.

Gender identity is the product of a specific brain configuration, it is a form of sexual dimorphism.

Like all sexual dimorphic characteristics it manifest along an axis, and like other sexual dimorphic characteristics is biological in nature.

The development and expression of sexual dimorphic characteristics have been ascribed, without a doubt, to an interplay of gene expression, epigenetic factors, and environmental stimulus.

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cathyrains

Quote from: peky on November 11, 2014, 08:51:48 AM
Gender identity is the product of a specific brain configuration, it is a form of sexual dimorphism.

It is? News to me!
Although if you want to continue down the line of biological essentialism then I suppose any feeling, emotion or sense of identity ultimately exists as a neurological state. Frankly I'm not sure we have that strong a grip on neuro pscychology in adults much less foetuses.
Exceptions to the norm do not constitute a spectrum.
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peky

Quote from: cathyrains on November 11, 2014, 08:54:29 AM
It is? News to me!
Although if you want to continue down the line of biological essentialism then I suppose any feeling, emotion or sense of identity ultimately exists as a neurological state. Frankly I'm not sure we have that strong a grip on neuro pscychology in adults much less foetuses.

There is plethora of things that can change brain structure and fuction and thereby changing your feelings, emotions, beliefs, and yes your identity too...

For example there are the documented cases of personality changes due to exposure to xeno-chemicals. The most relevant to our conversation is that of the results of smoking a common drug, usually used to treat respiratory ailments. Well, there are a documented case of a cis-heterosexual male who after smoking said substance self reported to an emergency  center, and demanded immediate SRS. The man in questions never had manifested any trans behavior, according to family members. The man continued to demand SRS for the next few days because he claimed that he was: "a women trapped in a man body." Finally, when the drug effects wore out, the man no longer requested SRS, or claimed to be a transgender. I am sure this is one his buddies and family will never let him get out of it...LOL

I know folks want to believe that there is something else behind the "human mind" other than neurobiology but the evidence for it, scientifically speaking, is non-existing.

In the other hand, the evidence for the neurological theory of the mind and consciousness is overwhelming ...

Of course philosophically or religiously speaking, you know matters of faith, we are free to believe what ever we want... that is at least in my country...

and we can happily agree to disagree...but not scientifically speaking

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cathyrains

Quote from: peky on November 11, 2014, 09:25:21 AM
There is plethora of things that can change brain structure and fuction and thereby changing your feelings, emotions, beliefs, and yes your identity too...

For example there are the documented cases of personality changes due to exposure to xeno-chemicals. The most relevant to our conversation is that of the results of smoking a common drug, usually used to treat respiratory ailments. Well, there are a documented case of a cis-heterosexual male who after smoking said substance self reported to an emergency  center, and demanded immediate SRS. The man in questions never had manifested any trans behavior, according to family members. The man continued to demand SRS for the next few days because he claimed that he was: "a women trapped in a man body." Finally, when the drug effects wore out, the man no longer requested SRS, or claimed to be a transgender. I am sure this is one his buddies and family will never let him get out of it...LOL

I know folks want to believe that there is something else behind the "human mind" other than neurobiology but the evidence for it, scientifically speaking, is non-existing.

In the other hand, the evidence for the neurological theory of the mind and consciousness is overwhelming ...

Of course philosophically or religiously speaking, you know matters of faith, we are free to believe what ever we want... that is at least in my country...

and we can happily agree to disagree...but not scientifically speaking

I have no issue with mind/brain dualism and quite happily accept, nay insist on the neurological theory of mind. However one must be cautious not to fall into neurological determinism.
Exceptions to the norm do not constitute a spectrum.
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LizMarie

One of the most important differences to remember is that structures that affect gender identity and sexuality are "white matter" structures. They are "base" structures, upon which everything else gets built after. So yes, it makes sense that if these structures get switched in utero that everything that comes after results in someone being trans.

All the post birth development is almost exclusively grey matter neural development and connections forming. Those white matter structures had to be in place and functioning well before that in order for the grey matter (thinking areas) to properly develop later.
The meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away.



~ Cara Elizabeth
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Contravene

Quote from: HughE on November 11, 2014, 05:54:40 AM
This is very interesting from my point of view too, because, ever since I found out about the link between DES and MTF transsexuality, I've had a suspicion that progestins could be causing FTM transsexuality.

Doctors don't usually administer progesterone itself to pregnant women, because it has a relatively short biological half life and so has to be given more or less every day. Instead, they usually prescribe one of a range of synthetic hormones called progestins, which are designed to target the same hormone receptors that progesterone does. However, one of the problems with progestins is that most of them cross react with androgen receptors and, to a greater or lesser extent, mimic some of the effects of testosterone (the first generation of progestins were actually derivatives of testosterone!). Although I've mainly just been looking at the effects of DES, it certainly seems very reasonable to me that exposure to progestins could cause FTM transsexuality.

There's actually a known problem of progestin induced virilization, in which baby girls were born with intersexed or sometimes completely male genitals after their mothers were given treatment with progestins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progestin-induced_virilisation

That article talks mainly about danazol, and makes out that exposure to medically prescribed androgenizing hormones is a rare thing, however a lot of women (probably in the millions) were given androgenizing progestins between about 1950 and the mid 1970s, when the fact that they were causing male development in female fetuses was finally spotted. Since progestins were often co-prescribed with DES, in most cases exposure to these drugs is likely to have followed a similar pattern to DES, and taken place too late in the pregnancy to have much effect on genital development, but right in the middle of the critical time when sexually dimorphic brain development is taking place.

The research on sheep and monkeys shows that the critical period for sexually dimorphic brain development doesn't start until after genital development has finished. If the same applies to humans, that means it can't start until at least 13 weeks after conception, which rules out the first trimester. I'm fairly sure that the exposure in my case was during the second trimester only, and I had normal male development during the first and third trimesters. While I don't identify as a woman, I have a gender identity that's kind of a mixture of male and female. So I think the brain development responsible for gender identity later in life must take place throughout the second and third trimesters, and gender identity must be the summation of lots and lots of little differences between the sexes that are built into the structure of the brain during that time (rather than being due to any one specific thing the brain does).

That was really informative, thanks! I'm definitely going to look into this because I'm interested in learning more. I'm also going to try asking my mom about what other hormones she was taking at the time, if any, and whether or not she took the same things when she was pregnant with my siblings.

I have a sister who is very atypical but still identifies as female so I always wondered if it was genetic or if maybe my brain got the full flush of male hormones in the womb which resulted in me being trans while my sister only got a limited amount of the same hormones. According to my parents, a lot of the women on my mother's side are pretty atypical so maybe it's a combination.
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Dread_Faery

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suzifrommd

Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 12, 2014, 05:56:26 PM
Quote from: peky on November 11, 2014, 08:51:48 AM
Gender identity is the product of a specific brain configuration, it is a form of sexual dimorphism.
No it isn't.

Can we at least agree that gender identity appears not to be subject to change by an effort of will? That, unlike deciding you're a Catholic or that you're vegetarian, you can't decide to change your identity, can't be talked into another gender identity, can't be conditioned to be a particular gender identity, etc.

That, to me, would be a strong indication that something physical in the brain his biologically "hardwired" to be a specific gender identity rather than it being the results of some thought pattern or experience.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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cathyrains

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 12, 2014, 06:20:00 PM
No it isn't.


Can we at least agree that gender identity appears not to be subject to change by an effort of will? That, unlike deciding you're a Catholic or that you're vegetarian, you can't decide to change your identity, can't be talked into another gender identity, can't be conditioned to be a particular gender identity, etc.

That, to me, would be a strong indication that something physical in the brain his biologically "hardwired" to be a specific gender identity rather than it being the results of some thought pattern or experience.

I would argue that gender identity, while persistent, is also progressive. Extrapolating back to a foetal "mind" is therefore not particularly helpful or useful.
Exceptions to the norm do not constitute a spectrum.
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Dread_Faery

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 12, 2014, 06:20:00 PM
No it isn't.


Can we at least agree that gender identity appears not to be subject to change by an effort of will? That, unlike deciding you're a Catholic or that you're vegetarian, you can't decide to change your identity, can't be talked into another gender identity, can't be conditioned to be a particular gender identity, etc.

That, to me, would be a strong indication that something physical in the brain his biologically "hardwired" to be a specific gender identity rather than it being the results of some thought pattern or experience.

Gender identity is constructed from a variety of internal and external cues, both consciously and subconsciously. Among those cues is the interaction between your sense of physical self and your physical reality. Gendered behaviour and gender roles are socially constructed, and are imposed upon individuals from a very young age, these can be internalised and normalised, and eventually imposed behaviour can become being seen as an innate trait. The truth is it's more like a positive feedback loop, certain behaviours are gendered, people of that gender seen behaving that way are seen as proving that the behaviour is gendered, thus strengthening the notion that that behaviour is an innate trait to that gender.

What people get wrong is believing that because gender is a social construct that it doesn't have profound effects on people's lives and behaviour, basically the see socially constructed as not being real.

I also reject any notion of there being inherently male and female brains, as going down that path leads to gender essentialism and there being a right and wrong kind of trans. The truth is there are structural differences between male and female brains, but their so slight as to have not tangible effect on behaviour.
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Dread_Faery

Just to add, this is what I believe as it aligns with my own experiences and many of my friends experiences. It allows for persistent and fixed feelings of gender dysphoria as you can't flip a switch to reboot your sense of self to align with your physical reality, without messy assertions of neurosexism and innate gendered behaviour.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 13, 2014, 07:10:01 AM
I also reject any notion of there being inherently male and female brains, as going down that path leads to gender essentialism and there being a right and wrong kind of trans. The truth is there are structural differences between male and female brains, but their so slight as to have not tangible effect on behaviour.

How would you explain the phenomenon of male babies given sex changes to correct anatomical anomalies and not being told about it, being raised as girls in all ways, but insisting they are male when they are old enough articulate that?

Isn't what you're describing exactly the scientific understanding that led to John Money's downfall?
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Edge

Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 13, 2014, 07:10:01 AM
I also reject any notion of there being inherently male and female brains, as going down that path leads to gender essentialism and there being a right and wrong kind of trans. The truth is there are structural differences between male and female brains, but their so slight as to have not tangible effect on behaviour.
I guess it comes down to how one defines "gender." Personally, I reject the notion that gender is the same as gender roles, stereotypes, behaviour, clothes, etc. To me, gender is something much more abstract that we don't fully understand yet, but is a part of the bigger picture of who we are rather than something that controls who we are. If that makes sense. According to what information we have so far on gender (my definition anyway) and the brain (which, admittedly is currently far from complete, but that doesn't make the information we have learned any less), I would say that gender is determined by those brain structures, but those brain structures (and gender) do not determine patterns of behaviour that are illogically associated with gender.
I hope I made sense. I'm not meaning to argue. Just explaining as best I can how I see it. I should also point out that I'm a fan of science, a biology student, and a brain fanboy whose long term plans involve becoming a research neuroscientist because I think brains are the most fascinating things ever.
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Daisy Jane

Left-handedness is also believed to develop in the womb due to hormone imbalances.
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PinkCloud

I think that the brain is pretty fluid. I certainly do not believe that everything is set in stone at birth. Hormones might induce certain structures to develop differently. What enables that to become fixed in nature, I simply do not know. If it is some aberration in the brain, why can't we fix it with psychology? Science seems to be able to cure almost any mental disorder, so why is this gender thing so darn persistent? Why doesn't electroshocks work? why doesn't chemical induced dissociation work? why don't we perform brain surgery to rectify this little problem of ours? Well, because we simply don't know where the problem is located. Maybe identity is just the ghost of the mind, the shadow of the soul, which cannot be captured and dissected?

Science is useful, but I do not like dehumanizing everything into that nihilistic, pessimistic abyss of bits and numbers. One can produce models, theories, and explanations but the map isn't the same as the territory. A thought might be a chemical chain reaction of random flickering neurons, but that same seemingly simple chain of firing neurons produced Beethoven's majestic 5th symphony. And there is no trace of creativity to be found in the human brain. So much for randomness and predictability. Ordo ab Chao, maybe.
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Edge

Quote from: PinkCloud on November 13, 2014, 06:10:04 PM
I think that the brain is pretty fluid.
It is. This is known as neuroplasticity. What it refers to though are the synapses. The connections that are made between neurons can change. This is huge in a lot of ways, but does not have an affect on how many neurons are in a particular structure or the amount of myelin.

Quote from: PinkCloud on November 13, 2014, 06:10:04 PMIf it is some aberration in the brain, why can't we fix it with psychology?
I won't touch the aberration remark. As for why psychology can't fix it, that's because psychology can only work on changing ways of thinking (ie synapses). It cannot change the structures. To me, the fact that it doesn't work is further evidence of it being a structural thing.

Quote from: PinkCloud on November 13, 2014, 06:10:04 PMScience seems to be able to cure almost any mental disorder, so why is this gender thing so darn persistent?
Mental disorders are far from being cured.

Quote from: PinkCloud on November 13, 2014, 06:10:04 PMWhy doesn't electroshocks work?
Electroshock is also unable to change structures within the brain. It's meant to change the synapses. (Personally, I'm dubious about whether it works for anything other than frying people's short term memories, but whatever.)

Quote from: PinkCloud on November 13, 2014, 06:10:04 PMWhy doesn't chemical induced dissociation work?
Dissociation is a symptom of mental illness and I'm not sure how inducing that chemically can be considered "working."

Quote from: PinkCloud on November 13, 2014, 06:10:04 PMWhy don't we perform brain surgery to rectify this little problem of ours? Well, because we simply don't know where the problem is located. Maybe identity is just the ghost of the mind, the shadow of the soul, which cannot be captured and dissected?
Personally, I think it has more to do with the fact that no one in their right mind would perform brain surgery like that unless the patient was going to die of a tumour or something. Brain surgery is extremely risky. Aside from the high risk of death, we don't understand all the details of how the brain works and removing or changing anything could have devastating consequences. It's not so much about the location as it is what are all the things those structures do.
There are many case studies of brain damage and people who have had areas of the brain removed. I'd recommend giving them a look for a better understanding of what I mean.

Quote from: PinkCloud on November 13, 2014, 06:10:04 PMScience is useful, but I do not like dehumanizing everything into that nihilistic, pessimistic abyss of bits and numbers. One can produce models, theories, and explanations but the map isn't the same as the territory. A thought might be a chemical chain reaction of random flickering neurons, but that same seemingly simple chain of firing neurons produced Beethoven's majestic 5th symphony. And there is no trace of creativity to be found in the human brain. So much for randomness and predictability. Ordo ab Chao, maybe.
... Wha...?
That makes no sense. How is a curiosity and fascination about the world nihilistic and pessimistic? How can anyone look at how a chain of firing neurons causing Beethoven's majestic 5th symphony and not find it absolutely beautiful? How can one think that creativity can't be found in the human brain? What about Beethoven's 5th symphony? Is that not creative? Is that not beautiful? How can it possibly be dehumanizing to look at how humans are able to create these things?
Sorry, but this isn't something I will ever understand nor do I ever want to.
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LizMarie

A collection of references about the neurobiological research of the last 25 years and how it relates to being trans.

One Stop Trans Brain Research List
The meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away.



~ Cara Elizabeth
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jennyfer

Thank you, Liz Marie!  Your one-stop list is a great resource for those of us interested in the subject.
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LizMarie

I think it is important to understand that this is a very complicated subject. The brain differences between trans people and cisgender people are substantial, important, and are documented to occur in utero. But at the same time it is important to realize that other factors may play a role here too - the entire "nurture" question.

I do not believe this is a "nature vs nurture" debate at all. Rather, I believe it is a combination of both but that the prenatal hormonal issues are a key component in being trans.

Finally, something I think I forgot to link on my research page is this presentation to the AMA annual meeting in 2011.

http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html

The presentation is about 70 minutes long and documents in utero hormonal issues and how they apply to being trans as well as LGB.
The meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away.



~ Cara Elizabeth
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HughE

It's highly counterintuitive, but the sex you develop as has nothing to do with whether you have a Y chromosome or not. Instead it depends on whether there's androgenic hormones (testosterone and DHT) present during your prenatal development.

In normal male development, the presence of a Y chromosome causes the fetus to develop testicles, which then promptly start churning out the hormones required for male development. However, it's the hormones and not the Y chromosome that cause the fetus to develop as male, and if anything prevents the hormones from being produced or doing their job, then the fetus will instead develop as female instead of male. There's two medical conditions which prove this to be the case: Swyer's Syndrome, and Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS). In Swyers Syndrome, the testicles fail to form and so no androgenic hormones are produced; in CAIS, the testicles form and produce their hormones as normal, however a mutation to the gene for the androgen receptor means that the cells throughout that person's body are completely unable to detect or react to androgenic hormones, so all their development takes place as if those hormones weren't there. Either way, a person who is genetically male (46,XY karyotype) develops as female, and people with these conditions look just like ordinary women, so much so that often the condition isn't even picked up until puberty, when menstruation fails to start.

CAIS is a particularly good example proving how the whole process of sexual development depends entirely on hormones, since, as rare DSDs go, it's relatively common (there are thousands of CAIS women alive today), so people with the condition have been well studied. Also, the only difference between these people and the genetically male people who develop as male is that their androgen receptors don't work (or are missing altogether). Everything else, including hormones, enzymes, Y chromosome and other genes, is unaffected. That basically proves that, in humans, male development is entirely driven through androgen receptors (and, without androgen receptor activation, female development will occur instead).

The really important thing from our point of view is that CAIS women seem to behave exactly like ordinary women, and seem to be universally happy with being female. Out of the thousands of CAIS women worldwide, I'm aware of just a single recorded instance of one with a male gender identity (that one case on it's own doesn't mean a lot, as it could be due to chimerism, or a mutation to a gene somewhere that causes male brain development to take place even in the absence of androgen receptor activation).

By contrast, male babies who were born with a condition called cloacal extropy (which has traditionally involved reassignment to female as part of the surgical repair), had very high rates of dissatisfaction with a female gender identity (in fact it looked like an unmitigated disaster in the paper I read - about half of the patients who'd been reassigned to female had spontaneously reverted to living as male, and even the ones still living as female didn't sound happy about it).

What this shows is that your gender identity later in life depends on brain development that took place before you were born, and whether your identity ends up male or female depends on on whether or not there were androgenic hormones present during the time that brain development was taking place.

The thing I've been trying to make people aware of, is that doctors have for decades been in the habit of giving pregnant women drugs in doses that would suppress testosterone production in adult men, with most of the heaviest exposure to these substances tending to occur too late in the pregnancy to affect genital development or physical appearance, but during what appears to be the critical period when the brain undergoes its sexually dimorphic development. Either a male fetus is somehow magically immune to the effects of these drugs, or they've inadvertently created millions of people who look male but have female brains. Based on what I've seen of the effects of DES, it's the latter, which would explain why there's suddenly so many MTF trans folk about!

Whether medical hormones can also cause FTM transsexuality I don't know, however I suspect some can, and some of the replies to this thread appear to back up that suspicion.
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