*TRIGGER WARNING* Trouble In Transtopia: Murmurs Of Sex Change Regret

[Devlyn]

  ...The issue is the growing number of 'regretters'.  The question is "Why?"

More people getting a surgery that is essentially brand new?

[Dee Marshall]

Making the argument that it is society's fault for not accepting behavior that it deems inappropriate is a red herring and a "cop out" IMHO.  The issue is the growing number of 'regretters'.  The question is "Why?"

Are we seeing a "growing number of 'regretters'", or are they simply being played up more? I haven't seen any proper analysis by anyone that implies that it's risen numerically or by percentage. I don't think anyone really knows. What we have seen is a small group of examples with no context. My problem is that writers seem to latch onto them to generate sensationalist articles. I take those anecdotes as no more significant than I do the positive ones we more often see here, and a good deal less gratifying. I'd love to see such a study done, but I personally won't do it for a number of reasons.

[Brenda E]

I also see a "knee-jerk" reaction on the part of the "community" to demonize the author for bringing these issues to light.

The author isn't bringing anything to light.  She's writing third-hand comment bait for bigots.  Her article is has few - if any - genuine facts presented in an unbiased manner, and the issues she's bringing to light are inflammatory, dishonest, and designed solely to generate a self-perpetuating frenzy of vile comments.  I'm not sure why we're even debating whether the article is legit journalism or not (it's not), or whether the author is unbiased or has a rather disgraceful agenda ( - it's the latter, thus making her personal beliefs and values a legitimate target seeing as she's inserted them into her work.)

The issue is the growing number of 'regretters'.  The question is "Why?"

Not sure this is accurate.  The real question is whether the percentage of regretters is growing.  Since more transgender people are finally getting access to treatment, there's going to be more regretters.  This is a function of the greater numbers of transitioners, not a greater proportion of regretters.

[Susan522]

More people getting a surgery that is essentially brand new?

They have been doing these surgeries in the US since the late 1960's.  Even earlier in Europe and other parts of the world.

The author isn't bringing anything to light.  She's writing third-hand comment bait for bigots.  Her article is has few - if any - genuine facts presented in an unbiased manner, and the issues she's bringing to light are inflammatory, dishonest, and designed solely to generate a self-perpetuating frenzy of vile comments.  I'm not sure why we're even debating whether the article is legit journalism or not (it's not), or whether the author is unbiased or has a rather disgraceful agenda ( - it's the latter, thus making her personal beliefs and values a legitimate target seeing as she's inserted them into her work.)

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.  I will grant you that the studies noted are seven to nine years old, but I do not see that as a reason for invalidating them.  What did you think of the Guardian article, that I referenced above?  Did you read it? Or just not bother because you see anything that questions the "approved" trans* mantra as merely an effort to"generate a self-perpetuating frenzy of vile comments".   I do not agree that her pointing out the obvious shortcomings in the current protocols are not "genuine facts presented in an unbiased manner", nor that "the issues she's bringing to light are inflammatory, dishonest" or otherwise non-existent.

In case you missed it, it gist of the article is the outright denial that a problem even exists!  Until thereal problems of diagnosis and appropriate treatment protocols are addressed in an adult and unbiased fashion, this condition will remain little more that a political football to be kicked around for the political advantage of both sides of the political spectrum.

But please....Do carry on.

[Devlyn]

They have been doing these surgeries in the US since the late 1960's.  Even earlier in Europe and other parts of the world.

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.  I will grant you that the studies noted are seven to nine years old, but I do not see that as a reason for invalidating them.  What did you think of the Guardian article, that I referenced above?  Did you read it? Or just not bother because you see anything that questions the "approved" trans* mantra as merely an effort to"generate a self-perpetuating frenzy of vile comments".   I do not agree that her pointing out the obvious shortcomings in the current protocols are not "genuine facts presented in an unbiased manner", nor that "the issues she's bringing to light are inflammatory, dishonest" or otherwise non-existent.

In case you missed it, it gist of the article is the outright denial that a problem even exists!  Until thereal problems of diagnosis and appropriate treatment protocols are addressed in an adult and unbiased fashion, this condition will remain little more that a political football to be kicked around for the political advantage of both sides of the political spectrum.

But please....Do carry on.

OK, so 50 years. Compared to the 1,960 years worth of transsexuals since Jesus walked the earth. And who knows how many transsexuals before that. I stand by my comment, this is brand new.

[Susan522]

OK, so 50 years. Compared to the 1,960 years worth of transsexuals since Jesus walked the earth. And who knows how many transsexuals before that. I stand by my comment, this is brand new.

Hmmm....I think the OP was about "Murmurs Of Sex Change Regret".  I am not aware of any actual sex-change surgeries prior to 1932 when the first was attempted on Lili Elbe.  I think that trying to reference "the 1,960 years worth of transsexuals since Jesus walked the earth. And who knows how many transsexuals before that..." is a it of a red herring, wouldn't you agree?  No?  I guess not

[Devlyn]

If the first generation of people to receive these surgeries is still processing their life with it, how is anyone supposed to have an accurate picture yet? Weymouth has one of the biggest Herring Run/fish ladders in the world. You don't want to play that game with me. Wouldn't you agree?  No? I guess not.

[Susan522]

If the first generation of people to receive these surgeries is still processing their life with it, how is anyone supposed to have an accurate picture yet? Weymouth has one of the biggest Herring Run/fish ladders in the world. You don't want to play that game with me. Wouldn't you agree?  No? I guess not.

Guess again.  You fished out the red herring.  Now you wanna play games.  No Thanks!

[Jill F]

C'mon folks, we're not playing this game.  Please stop or this thread will end up getting locked.

[Paige]

I do not see these arguments as having been "debunked" or "bogus".  I see serious mistakes being made in how people are treated and lives being ruined.  Sadly I also see a "knee-jerk" reaction on the part of the "community" to demonize the author for bringing these issues to light, (then justify that demonization), and seemingly afraid or unwilling to examine an obvious short coming in the treatment protocols for people like yourself who apparently suffer from a wide variety of possibly related disorders.

Making the argument that it is society's fault for not accepting behavior that it deems inappropriate is a red herring and a "cop out" IMHO.  The issue is the growing number of 'regretters'.  The question is "Why?"

Hi Susan522,

It seems to me that Carrie Liz made some excellent points on this thread about the article in question that you have chosen not to address.  Instead you've generalized all responses as "knee-jerk".   

Also before you ask "Why", I think you should explain what you mean by a "growing number of regretters".   With a growing number of people transitioning  there would naturally be more people who regret transition.  But I think the implication of your statement is that the percentage of regretters in the transitioning population has grown.  This article, the 2004 article you linked to and you haven't given any evidence to prove this.

Finally, I would like to thank you so much for suggesting I have a wide variety of related disorders.  That was so sweet of you.

Have a lovely night,
Paige

[Eva Marie]

Are you not attacking the messenger, rather than the message?

Serious regrets and de-transitions are a seemingly growing reality and the reasons for these regrets should be looked at objectively in order to possibly understand what went wrong.  Would it not be more constructive to examine the arguments first before just dismissing them as "willfully ignorant 'knee-jerk' reactions"?

I followed a couple of the links provided and found this one to be interesting and  informative:  http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/31/health.socialcare

What I wrote was referring to the person that wrote that article; not the messeneger. It is my opinion that she carefully cherry picked her facts to present a one sided argument. The fact that she uses Dr. Paul McHugh as a reference in related articles (who is generally not regarded as a credible resource by the trans community from what I can tell) should tell you a lot.

What I would *like* to see is a balanced article that fairly represents all sides - the good and the bad - and let the reader decide how they feel. 

Since you said:

Serious regrets and de-transitions are a seemingly growing reality and the reasons for these regrets should be looked at objectively in order to possibly understand what went wrong.

I believe that we are in agreement on this. You made the same point that I was trying to make - this article IMO only presented one side of the issue.when we ought to be looking at all sides, and don't forget that not all of these surgeries are abject failures. How many people are alive today because they received appropriate medical care for being transgender? That fact seemed to be pretty much glossed over in that article.

I realize that people's feelings about this issue are running high and it was not my intent to start an argument or attack anyone - My intent was to point out how unbalanced and one sided I thought the article was.

My apologies if I offended anyone.

[Cindy]

Debating and discussion of such articles is important. This can and should be done in a logical and informative way.

Opinions will differ, that is why we debate. It is a healthy exchange of ideas.

The addition of snide like comments at the end of  posts belittles your opinion and accomplishes nothing except to make you look foolish and incapable of reasoned expression.

Please think when you post.

In a world where acceptance of trans*people is at best marginal I would have thought that lateral violence to each other would be seen as unproductive.

[Susan]

I responded to the article.

The science is clear, when the guidelines are properly followed there is little to no regret post Gender Reassignment Surgery.

In one study...

     An inception cohort was retrospectively identified consisting of all
     subjects with gender identity disorder who were approved for sex
     reassignment in Sweden during the period 1972-1992. The period of time
     that elapsed between the application and this evaluation ranged from
     4 to 24 years. The total cohort consisted of 218 subjects. The results
     showed that 3.8% of the patients who were sex reassigned during 1972-1992
     regretted the measures taken. - Factors predictive of regret in sex reassignment by
     Landén M1, Wålinder J, Hambert G, Lundström B.
     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9570489

In another study...

     Altogether 325 consecutive adolescent and adult applicants for sex
     reassignment participated: 222 started hormone treatment, 103 did
     not; 188 completed and 34 dropped out of treatment. Only data of
     the 162 adults were used to evaluate treatment...After treatment
     the group was no longer gender dysphoric. The vast majority
     functioned quite well psychologically, socially and sexually.
     Two non-homosexual male-to-female transsexuals expressed regrets. -  Sex
     reassignment: outcomes and predictors of treatment for adolescent and adult
     transsexuals by Smith YL1, Van Goozen SH, Kuiper AJ, Cohen-Kettenis PT.
     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15842032

8 people in the first study, and 2 in the second study. People suffering from regret are hardly a screaming throng.

I should know, as I run the website (Susan's Place Transgender Resources, https://www.susans.org) mentioned in this article.

It is the largest transgender support resource in the world. Since 2006 7,175,530 Unique visitors made 12,936,461 visits resulting in 79,153,463 Pageviews to my web site. Over 14,000 transsexuals and their  supporters have made 1,370,755 posts since I switched my forum software back in 2003. 

So I guess you could call me as close to an expert on transsexualism as you will find here.

I must say it was so great to see my site referenced in the article here because it brought this caltrop to my attention.

You see I just love rebutting people who make false and misleading statements about my web site. I don't even have to rely on my memory, you see everything is documented, and archived so it's all still there.

One thing I can say outright is that we have had very few posting of regret.

Since I made the rules and set the policy on the site, I can tell you there is absolutely no policy against discussion of post-op regret on my web site.

Here are the policies

     People suffering from post-op regret have every right to discuss
     the topic, until they start hijacking SRS and transition threads
     with the post-op regret themes...

     They also cannot attempt to discourage people from
     having SRS, any more than I want people
     encouraging people to do so.

     That being said Post-op Regret would make an acceptable
     topic. Discussing the short comings of SRS would make a
     excellent thread. Discussing ways to improve outcomes
     from therapy. Etc.

     The topic isn't banned what is banned is hijacking threads,
     and using their personal regret as the basis to say other people
     shouldn't consider transition or SRS as a means of dealing with
     severe GID.

That is the site's entire policy on the subject.

In the 19 years I have been running the web site we have prohibited exactly one user from talking about the subject after they had around 50 posts and an entire thread to state their views and to contribute something constructive, they simply kept repeatedly blaming others for their own actions and repeating the same arguments why they were not responsible for their choices ad nauseum.

We spent hours dealing with this individual before doing so. They were finally banned, for posting that they were planning on reaching out to groups who they knew would attempt to hurt the transgender community.

There seems to be one common thread in people expressing regret for having SRS and it's a glaring one. Lying to their therapists to get what they want.

Your article references Sheila Jeffrey's book, "Gender Hurts." which includes a quote from our then forum admin Dennis.

Which for the sake of discussion, I will include in my response.

     "The reaction from the transgender community was fast, furious, and abusive, particularly in the
      Susans.org discussion forum as described in Sheila Jeffrey's book, 'Gender Hurts.'"

I took a look at the quote and it was so heavily edited as to be unrecognizable.

     Finch first desertion of the cause on the Susan's.org discussion forum,
     where 'Dennis' comments on Finch's legal case against the Monash
     clinic, 'this is a joke! And calls him a 'media whore' (Susan's.org,
     Dennis, 2007). Another commentor, 'Melissa', says, 'people like
     this make me sick... I'm sorry people who regret transitioning should
     be shot. They are a waste of oxygen', and 'Helen W' says that Finch
     should be 'laughed out of the courtroom', and calls him an 'arch
     manipulator') (idid.).

     They reject the idea that regretters really exist and say that they do not
     know of any.

Here is the reality of what they said in the complete context. You can read it for yourself at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,11302.0.html

It started with Dennis making a statement about Mr. Finch's case against the clinic...

     There's one in Australia who's suing his doctors, even
     though he fudged his answers the second time round of
     psychiatric testing. The first time, he was rejected:

     http://www.realityresources.com/alanfinch.htm

     I hope he loses.

     Dennis

He was followed two post later by Melissa whose quote also appeared in the book but very heavily edited let's look at the entire quote

     People like this make me sick.  HE decides to lie and
     then blames everyone else just so he doesn't have to
     accept responsibility for his actions.  In doing so, it
     harms all "real" transsexuals as a whole.  People
     like this are actually on of the reasons my parents are
     having a hard time accepting this.  They are worried I
     will have the same regrets, but if anything, I have been
     *extremely* honest with people.  I'm sorry, people who
     regret transitioning enough to detransition should be shot.
     They are only a waste of oxygen.
   
     Melissa

There is no excuse for the last line and that should been caught and edited by the moderation staff on the site as it violates the terms of service. Since it has existed for so long and has been quoted in the book, I shall leave it as is, but will publicly state it should've never been allowed there in the first place, and I apologize to anyone who has been affected or hurt by it.

Now let's look at what Helen said...

     I wish Mr. Finch would be laughed out of the courtroom.
     And it sickens me that Leach and his crew are using this
     "arch manipulator" as an example.  And where did that
     10% dissatisfaction statistic come from?

     And the friend who outed Mr Finch as a pathological liar
     is accused of suffering from, "the hellish emotional confusion
     which results from crossing gender lines." 

     I have a high level of suspicion of the veracity of
     anything that is on that site.  I think Mr. Leach is an
     exploiter and a thief who preys on the insecurity and
     internalized worthlessness that trans people feel for his
     own gain.

     helen

Further down in the thread Dennis states,

     I agree with you Helen, about being suspicious of anything
     on that site. I have seen Mr. Finch in other contexts though.
     He was featured on a Fifth Estate program about transitioning.
     In addition to being a liar, he is also a media whore.

     Dennis

Then we have the fact that even though quoting my web site then making extensive and subjective claims about it neither this author, nor Mrs. Jeffreys ever attempted to contact me to fact check, nor to get the position of my web site or my self on the subject which is extremely unethical when making such broad-brush claims about it.

There is a common thread with Mr. Finch, and the other postop regret advocates I have recently seen. They have all stated at one point or another that they made false statements to their doctors and psychologists to get the end results they wanted. Once they got it, they realized that they made a mistake. Rather than accept responsibility for their actions and the role they played in their situation they blame the system for not protecting them from their own deception. 

I don't see how anyone can find it acceptable when someone who does so, attempts to turn around and then blame those medical professionals for not protecting them from their own deception.

The transgender community recognizes regret as a possible outcome but basically points out that these regret'ers made the choices they did, and they chose to have the surgery; and if they don't like it tough. No one forced them to climb up on that operating table. It is this lack of personal responsibility and culpability is what that the transgender community objects to.

If a transgender person is honest with themselves, and honest with the medical professionals who oversees their transition, anyone who would suffer from potential regret should be caught and excluded from the transition process long before they could reach an operating table. If they were not they have our sympathy Gender Reassignment is not for everyone.

Yet many of these people are attempting to prevent others from seeking treatment that medically recognized as the only truly successful solution for relieving severe gender dysphoria.

My web site has been in existence since 1996, and is the largest transgender community in the world. Between 1996 and 2014 I have seen perhaps 10-20 people stating that they regretted their surgery. I have seen thousands saying how happy they are to be finally themselves. 

I don't begrudge those who regret their surgery and would be happy to provide support to them. There are a couple of proviso's

1. They cannot hijack non-regret threads by members with post op regret posts.
2. They are welcome to discuss their situations, their regret, provided that is is not for the purpose of simply wallowing in self pity but instead is an active attempt to improve their lives.

Self pity has never helped anyone.

That is my point of view, which also makes it the point of view of my web site.

[JLT1]

Susan,

You worked much of the night on the response.  You defended the site so that people like me can find others and find help.  I really hope you don't have to work today. 

Thank you doesn't over it,

Hugs,

Jen   

[blink]

Thank you doesn't over it,

I scroll down from propping the post and see I'm not the only one with this exact sentiment. Thank you really doesn't cover it. But
thank you, Susan, for this website, and for your outstanding, fact-based response to that article.

[stephaniec]

I don't known this my sound like an over simplistic response, but if some ones taking a knife to my genitals he/she better have my consent to be doing that and my own personal acceptance of whatever consequences if given that consent.

[Devlyn]

C'mon folks, we're not playing this game.  Please stop or this thread will end up getting locked.

Debating and discussion of such articles is important. This can and should be done in a logical and informative way.

Opinions will differ, that is why we debate. It is a healthy exchange of ideas.

The addition of snide like comments at the end of  posts belittles your opinion and accomplishes nothing except to make you look foolish and incapable of reasoned expression.

Please think when you post.

In a world where acceptance of trans*people is at best marginal I would have thought that lateral violence to each other would be seen as unproductive.

I apologize for my part in that. I'll also say thank you, Susan for pulling all that information up.

[Susan]

This situation is also a great primer on why it's so very important to watch what you say, and how you say it,  and to always consider how others will view your posts. Because people who wish to harm the transgender community will most certainly look for ammunition amongst these forums.

[Susan522]

This situation is also a great primer on why it's so very important to watch what you say, and how you say it,  and to always consider how others will view your posts. Because people who wish to harm the transgender community will most certainly look for ammunition amongst these forums.

I strongly agree and I am very appreciative of Susan for providing us with those pesky yet all important FACTS.

These discussions are important.  These issues are more than just important.  They are quite literally matters of life and death.  That fact cannot be overstated.  I am glad that the the forum has stepped up to their responsibility to maintain order without throwing anybody under the bus.

You all have a great day

[Wynternight]

Wow Susan. That was one hell of a well done response. I'd be interested to see how some people react to it. You simply can't argue against what you said there.