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Are crossdressers demonized in the TG community?

Started by Elizabeth, August 13, 2007, 12:24:40 AM

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Elizabeth

Hello Ladies,

I say that because the phenomenon we call crossdressing is almost exclusively a male endeavor. Mostly because women are not persecuted for crossdressing. It is perfectly acceptable for women to wear men's anything. From underwear to a suit and tie.

When I first came out of the closet I went to a crossdresser forum. I didn't know that there was a difference between crossdressers and transsexuals. I thought it was the same thing. Transsexuals crossdress. I thought those who claimed to only do it once in a while, were just in denial, something I knew a lot about.

I spent a great deal of time arguing with crossdressers and offending many of them as well as their SO's by proclaiming they were all headed for transition eventually. That like me, they would let go of the denial eventually, and just admit they really wanted to transition. But as time went on, I started reading and learning about transsexualism and crossdressing and learned that crossdressers are indeed something different.

Many like Cathy Anderson had used Jungian psychology to explain crossdressing as part of the "male anima" which contains the female part of our psyche.  After all, we are all the product of the union of a male and a female. But when I read this material, which many crossdressers swore by, it just was not what I was feeling. I didn't feel another part of me wanting out.

"Jung's Anima Theory and How it Relates to Crossdressing"
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/anima.htm

Then I started listening to crossdressers talking about how they started dressing. Unlike me, almost all were sexually motivated, at least at first. Most had a long history of crossdressing, I had only done it a few times and it was not to get off. It was to feel like a person. Finally I figured it out. I was not a crossdresser at all. They were completely different things.

During this time I had been in a crossdresser forum. I had heard crossdressers talking about other sites and being demeaned by "true transsexuals". I could not believe that anyone who had gender issues would demean anyone else simply because their gender expression was not the same as theirs. But when I stepped into the transsexual world, crossdresser became a bad word. I mean, would I be labled as a sex crazed ->-bleeped-<- dressing as a woman just to get off, thereby putting a stigma on transsexuals?

Indeed I have been shocked and surprised by the way the transsexual community has demonized crossdressers as the source of all of our troubles. People vehemently denying they are a crossdresser to defend themselves against attack.

But I have to say, crossdressers are some of the warmest loving human beings I have ever met. I owe my life to a handful of them who held me up when I was too weak to hold myself up. I don't know what motivated crossdressers to begin with, but I do know that they have a feminine part of themselves that must be expressed. Some in public, for others private is fine. Still others are transsexuals who are hiding in the crossdresser closet unwilling to accept the real truth about themselves, like me.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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TheBattler

Thanks for the link Elizabeth - it looks like  very interesting read that I will explore when I have more timr.


Some of the TS people do like like Crossdresses because they do not want to be identified with any "Guys in a dress". Many cross dresses will identify as Male and hence the TS people do not want to be near them. But what I am also finding is those same CDs also have a large female side that needs to be recognised. I fould it interesting what Alice Novic (see http://www.aliceingenderland.com/CouldIBeTS.html).

Quote
For me, crossdresser describes an MTF trans person who lives his life primarily as a man. And a transsexual is an MTF trans person who has decided to live as a woman. So, to me, my TS sister, you and I live different lifestyles, but are we deep down different people? I think you sensed it yourself: we're not.

I do know the TS people do not want to be see as a guy in dress and will try and separate themselves away. But in the end we are part of the same comunity and have similar struggles.

Alice
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Nero

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 12:24:40 AM
I don't know what motivated crossdressers to begin with, but I do know that they have a feminine part of themselves that must be expressed.

I agree. I think there are a lot of different motivations for crossdressing. Some men have a strong feminine side that needs expressed, as you say. Some may have some form of GID. Some are purely sexually motivated.
And some, I think, just like to dress up - after all, it was only a few centuries back that men's clothes rivaled women's in fashion and frilliness. It was also fairly common place for men to wear makeup and take as much care with hair styling as women.
Men are stifled in today's society. Too many taboos. Of course there are men that like pretty clothes and like to dress up and paint their face. It's really not an exclusively female trait. Only in today's society. ::)
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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cyanide

i am confused actually.... because i for one do believe that CD and TS are the same. am i wrong?

Elizabeth: you mentioned that you now relize that CD and TS are indeed different... in what way?
(for a second i was happy that someone agreed with me ;) )



now i am not so sure what to think.
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Kate

Quote from: cyanide on August 13, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
i am confused actually.... because i for one do believe that CD and TS are the same. am i wrong?

Take a peek at Standard Terms and Definitions 2 ;)

~Kate~
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Elizabeth

Quote from: cyanide on August 13, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
i am confused actually.... because i for one do believe that CD and TS are the same. am i wrong?

Elizabeth: you mentioned that you now relize that CD and TS are indeed different... in what way?
(for a second i was happy that someone agreed with me ;) )



now i am not so sure what to think.

1. I don't enjoy anything about being male
2. I want to alter my body permanently
3. I am not motivated to do this from sexual turn on

In those ways we are different. I don't want to look like a woman, I want to be a woman. All the time.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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TheBattler

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 09:37:52 PM
Quote from: cyanide on August 13, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
i am confused actually.... because i for one do believe that CD and TS are the same. am i wrong?

Elizabeth: you mentioned that you now relize that CD and TS are indeed different... in what way?
(for a second i was happy that someone agreed with me ;) )



now i am not so sure what to think.

1. I don't enjoy anything about being male
2. I want to alter my body permanently
3. I am not motivated to do this from sexual turn on

In those ways we are different. I don't want to look like a woman, I want to be a woman. All the time.

Love always,
Elizabeth

1 - Ok cross dresses generly do not mind being male - some do however much prefer they where female
3 - Do not generlise - there are many reasons for cross dressing. I am gettig ready for a ball this weekend. I am not cross dressing fo a turn on - I am trying to find out as much as possible about myself.

Alice
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Elizabeth

Quote from: Alice on August 13, 2007, 09:59:18 PM
...
1 - Ok cross dresses generly do not mind being male - some do however much prefer they where female
3 - Do not generlise - there are many reasons for cross dressing. I am gettig ready for a ball this weekend. I am not cross dressing fo a turn on - I am trying to find out as much as possible about myself.

Alice

It's all about how it starts. I recognize that many crossdressers do not dress for sexual turn on, now. However, it's rare that this was not the original motivation when the crossdressing began. If this does not apply to you, I am sorry for offending you, but it is one of the differences between crossdressers and transsexuals.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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TheBattler

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 10:04:13 PM
Quote from: Alice on August 13, 2007, 09:59:18 PM
...
1 - Ok cross dresses generly do not mind being male - some do however much prefer they where female
3 - Do not generlise - there are many reasons for cross dressing. I am gettig ready for a ball this weekend. I am not cross dressing fo a turn on - I am trying to find out as much as possible about myself.

Alice

It's all about how it starts. I recognize that many crossdressers do not dress for sexual turn on, now. However, it's rare that this was not the original motivation when the crossdressing began. If this does not apply to you, I am sorry for offending you, but it is one of the differences between crossdressers and transsexuals.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I still do not like it. What about the girls who start out as CDs and end being TS. I know one girl who started out a CD - had the depression and the like - did not mind being a guy etc - but has ended up findout out she is infact closer to female then male. I myslef is in a similar situation. It is just so hard to generlise people so I prefer we did not do it.

Alice
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SarahFaceDoom

Crossdressers are definitely demonized and treated as second class in the T community.  I think when I was just starting to transition, I wanted to avoid identification as a CD so much that I missed many opportunities to correct people's stigmas about them.  Now that I am much farther along in transition, I tend to be a lot more open towards everyone in the T-community.  I just try to understand them on their level and get to know them as people first, as I would want others to do with me.  And hopefully through that I can be an example for others.
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cyanide


Quote from: Alice on August 13, 2007, 09:59:18 PM
What about the girls who start out as CDs and end being TS.,,

Alice

this is actually what i am talking about.  it is not about the personality, etc. (and i also think that people who crossdress for sexual desires are called transvistites aren't they?  not sure).
the way that i actually think CD and TS are similar is that i believe many of us started out crossdressing and then 'branch' out into different spectrums of the TG category.

i for one considered myself a crossdresser for a while. but recently, i've considered looking into doctors and begin hormone therapy.
i am still unsure about SRS yet. (and speaking of which, what about those who only go half way?  are they more demonized?)


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Luc

I knew a transsexual who was vehemently against crossdressers, despite her being a chat op on a transsexual chat site. If a CD asked for her help, she would either ignore them, pawn them off on another op, or belittle them in ways they probably didn't really understand.

She didn't live a perfect life; indeed, she was far from it. She hated children (by her own profession), loathed anyone she felt might be beneath her as far as intelligence was concerned, and nitpicked on every little thing she could about every person she met. Truly, she was one of the most inconsiderate, conceited women I have ever met.

Transsexual, cross-dresser, gay, straight, black, white... we're all people. Some are kind, some brash and offensive. Is there anything wrong with cross-dressing? Of course not! If you're not hurting yourself or others, and if you're happy, I say go for it! Judge each human as just that, a human... and disregard clothing choices.

And btw, it's long troubled me, that double standard that dictates women are allowed to dress in men's clothing, but not men in women's. Unisex clothes, anyone?

Dino
"If you want to criticize my methods, fine. But you can keep your snide remarks to yourself, and while you're at it, stop criticizing my methods!"

Check out my blog at http://hormonaldivide.blogspot.com
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louise000

I don't know the reason why and maybe it's very wrong of me, but I know I would feel hurt and demoralised if someone were to say to me "Hey, you're not transsexual, you're a ->-bleeped-<-!".
But it's not likely to happen outside the "tg community" because to the general public they are one and the same. It's easy to say we should educate the public, but quite frankly I don't think they would be interested in listening to us. As far as many people are concerned we're all perverts.
Sorry but it's true and anyone who thinks otherwise is living in la-la land.
Louise
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Shana A

The hierarchy within trans communities has bothered me since day one of my involvement with it. When I first realized I was transgender, I went to various groups and meet lots of people. I quickly realized I wasn't a crossdresser, I just didn't feel things the same way as CDs I talked with. I also went to TS groups, and hung around with gay drag queens too. I didn't quite fit in with any group. I never felt better than anyone else, just different. I'm still figuring out who I am on the gender spectrum. 

We're all gender variant in some way, and need to work together against the discrimination that we suffer from society, not fight amongst ourselves. I look at the person, not the label. I have friends in all walks of life. Drag queens, post op TS, gay, straight... even republicans  ;D

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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gennee

Quote from: DeanO on August 14, 2007, 02:32:44 AM
I knew a transsexual who was vehemently against crossdressers, despite her being a chat op on a transsexual chat site. If a CD asked for her help, she would either ignore them, pawn them off on another op, or belittle them in ways they probably didn't really understand.

She didn't live a perfect life; indeed, she was far from it. She hated children (by her own profession), loathed anyone she felt might be beneath her as far as intelligence was concerned, and nitpicked on every little thing she could about every person she met. Truly, she was one of the most inconsiderate, conceited women I have ever met.

Transsexual, cross-dresser, gay, straight, black, white... we're all people. Some are kind, some brash and offensive. Is there anything wrong with cross-dressing? Of course not! If you're not hurting yourself or others, and if you're happy, I say go for it! Judge each human as just that, a human... and disregard clothing choices.

And btw, it's long troubled me, that double standard that dictates women are allowed to dress in men's clothing, but not men in women's. Unisex clothes, anyone?

Dino

The person you talked about most likely had her own issues to deal with.

Gennee


Posted on: August 14, 2007, 09:01:40 AM
I am a crossdresser and I have felt the less-than-friendly attitudes of transsexuals towards crossdressers. The thing is that I feel a kinship towards transsexuals. I am not transsexual and have no desire to have surgery but I support the transgender community regardless. I'm happy and content as both male and female. 

Listen, TG's have it tough dealing with the straight world. Can't we just respect our differences? If you feel good about who you are and are not ashamed about it, that goes a long way toward liberated living in this world.

Gennee


:)
Be who you are.
Make a difference by being a difference.   :)

Blog: www.difecta.blogspot.com
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BeverlyAnn

To give a simple answer to a complex question, in some quarters, yes CD's are demonized, second class, shunned or however you want to phrase it.  I've told the story here before but once when I was hostessing a reception for newcomers at Southern Comfort, I overheard one of my newbies (CD) ask a question at a big roundtable discussion that was going on.  She received basically what amounted to a sneer and the comment "You wouldn't understand, you're just a CD" from one of the TS participants.  However another girl, also TS, to the sneerer to task, chewed her out for being elitist and then answered the newbies question. 

But I did find in working the conference for the number of years that I did, most TS are very caring of all people in the gender spectrum and I've seen many a TS take a CD under their wing, so to speak.

Quote from: DeanO on August 14, 2007, 02:32:44 AM
I knew a transsexual who was vehemently against crossdressers, despite her being a chat op on a transsexual chat site. If a CD asked for her help, she would either ignore them, pawn them off on another op, or belittle them in ways they probably didn't really understand.

She didn't live a perfect life; indeed, she was far from it. She hated children (by her own profession), loathed anyone she felt might be beneath her as far as intelligence was concerned, and nitpicked on every little thing she could about every person she met. Truly, she was one of the most inconsiderate, conceited women I have ever met.

Deano, say it ain't so.  No one would act like that would they?  I'm being facetious here. ROFL

Beverly
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RebeccaFog


   I agree with the notion that CDs are demonized within the TG community.  There is evidence of it here on this site in all the references to the mysterious "man in a dress".  The reference is often belittling toward the person or concept of the person who is the "man in a dress".

  Personally, it does not make me happy to see that some people are considered inadequate or fakes.  People are people.  We actually need more men in dresses in this world.  Not only would it be an indicator of social acceptance for gender variation, but those men would probably be happier with their lives and might make more of a difference in this uptight bitter culture.

  I am only going to say this once.  There is nothing wrong with a man in a dress. I think I've seen some young men wearing obviously feminine clothing lately. Maybe the future will get better.  Maybe good enough that a man in a dress won't be sneered at or put down by anybody.


I guess this rant was brought to you by my sense of indignation.  Harrumph!  >:(
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 13, 2007, 12:24:40 AM
Hello Ladies,

I say that because the phenomenon we call crossdressing is almost exclusively a male endeavor. Mostly because women are not persecuted for crossdressing. It is perfectly acceptable for women to wear men's anything. From underwear to a suit and tie.
Bear in mind that this freedom of women's was bought at a price about a hundred years ago.  In the United States, at least, the original crossdressers were suffrigettes wearing pants.  They were villified much the same way MtF CDs are today.

Also bear in mind that FtM CDs still are with us today.  There is a difference between women who wear pants and ties and so on, and women who crossdress.  Of course there is the difference of intent to present as male.  But there are also the attempts to create beard shadows and packing.

Posted on: August 15, 2007, 04:39:16 PM
Quote from: BeverlyAnn on August 14, 2007, 05:11:50 PM
when I was hostessing a reception for newcomers at Southern Comfort,
I keep promising to join you one of these years.  *sigh*
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Megan

Quote from: Rebis on August 14, 2007, 06:43:34 PM
...We actually need more men in dresses in this world.  Not only would it be an indicator of social acceptance for gender variation, but those men would probably be happier with their lives and might make more of a difference in this uptight bitter culture...

Perhaps we need more men in dresses that are aware of and concerned about women's issues.

When I came out of the closet one of the first things I did was join a CD group. After doing that I was able to discover quickly that my issues were significantly different from typical CD issues, even though we had much in common. I saw that some of their gender identity issues that were remarkably similar to my own, and yet there was an emphasis on clothing and appearance that was different from what I felt.

While I don't go to events often, I still belong to that CD group even though I am full time and preparing for SRS. My therapist was a little surprised when I mentioned it. But I don't think we should build a wall between CDs and TSs, and this is my way of building bridges instead.

One thing I have noticed about the CDs I know is that while some of them may be very good at walking in high heels, they have not walked in a woman's shoes. They go to their CD events, often bringing their wives along (and occasionally their children), and then they return to their "straight" world and their male privilege. I don't think that is wrong, but I wonder how much they learn from it. I can't say that I ever hear them talking about equal rights or women's issues. These are things other women I know sometimes talk about, and I have talked with CDs' wives about such things, but not the (MTF) CDs themselves.

So I agree that we could use more men in dresses in the world, but I would happier if I saw them working to change the world.
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cyanide

Quote from: Megan on August 15, 2007, 06:16:45 PM

While I don't go to events often, I still belong to that CD group even though I am full time and preparing for SRS. My therapist was a little surprised when I mentioned it. But I don't think we should build a wall between CDs and TSs, and this is my way of building bridges instead.


i am surprised that she is surprised.  are we REALLY that different?
again, i still consider that most of us started with crossdressing. 

Quote
Perhaps we need more men in dresses that are aware of and concerned about women's issues.


One thing I have noticed about the CDs I know is that while some of them may be very good at walking in high heels, they have not walked in a woman's shoes. They go to their CD events, often bringing their wives along (and occasionally their children), and then they return to their "straight" world and their male privilege. I don't think that is wrong, but I wonder how much they learn from it. I can't say that I ever hear them talking about equal rights or women's issues. These are things other women I know sometimes talk about, and I have talked with CDs' wives about such things, but not the (MTF) CDs themselves.


you may have a good point here.... but ,IMHO,(this is not directed at you btw :D ) i don't think there is a need to divide between the two groups just because the CDs don't talk about these issues. And, just because the TSs talk about these equality does not make them relate to a genetic female more.
i think this is more of a core personality problem that can do without the TG intervention.
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