Are crossdressers demonized in the TG community?

[SarahFaceDoom]

Elisabeth, I believe I've been in contact in therapeutic circles with much more TS than you and that's what they said. Unless your calling these 40-50 people liars, I stand by what I said. Reality from so many people's mouth sort of trumps what some guy said in the 60's (very different times).

As I said, a TS may crossdress, but its usually not frequent unless they soon transition (its a step to transition) because its of no use to relieve GID.

There are doubtless exceptions, but if something is of no use, of even painfull, you won't do it; seems logical. For cross dressers, there is some relief of whatever GID by dressing, for most TS the relief from GID is only temporary; after a certain amount of time, usually counted in weeks, only anxiety and depression remains.

yeah. For someone with severe dysphoria, the stark contrast of looking male while wearing a dress would most likely be unbearable. Only serving to emphasize the problem.

Well but before puberty you don't really look that gendered.  Or I didn't.

[Elizabeth]

I never cross dressed much before transition and never just to get aroused, but to say it was never arousing is not entirely true either. Not that dressing gave me an erection, but it has made me feel "pretty" and in a way sensual. But to count all the times I was fully crossdressed before transition, that would be twice. About 5-6 more times just in a dress, but no makeup or anything like that. I didn't even buy a wig or breastforms until I was already dressing in women's clothes full time for over a year. It was kinda like, what's the point?

So I get all that. But just because that was my experience, does not mean it's true for everyone. I know a transsexual woman who had surgery last week and she crossdressed for years before being on HRT and in fact called herself a crossdresser and was quite sure she was not transsexual, right up until she admitted she was. Also there are members of this forum that not only crossdressed, but had sex frequently with her male parts and enjoyed it, another supposed taboo in the "true transsexual" world. In fact, I know more than one person in this forum like that.

So since it don't happen to everyone, it can't be a theory that is correct because it does not apply to all transsexuals.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[tinkerbell]

I would like to know what the objective of this thread is:  Is it to say that cross-dressers are the same as transsexuals?  is it to say that cross-dressers are oppressed by the TS community?  or is it to determine the difference between cross-dressers and transsexuals?

My answers to my own questions:

My answer to question number one:  NO
My answer to question number two:  I already answered.  They are misunderstood not demonized.  Problems arise when people try to imply that cross-dressers or ->-bleeped-<-s are the same as transsexuals (pre, non, or post op)
My answer to question number three:  Yes, there is a huge difference.  IMO, and based on my experience with other TS's the difference is abysmal.

tink

Still I ask, what is the objective of this thread? 


tink

[Keira]

There's so little decent study of anything related to TS that its hard to say anything but what we know.

Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics


The information I relayed, elizabeth about non crossdressing prior to transition was in clinical settings, therapy groups lead by two PHD gender therapists linked to hospital gender clinics who also do private sessions with the same persons, including me. These groups last years and are mandatory, some people drop out after SRS or for some other reason while other come back in, so I know people face to face the story of those people quite well, much beyond the anecdotal or anything anyone who reveal in any other settings.

Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics.

Not to mention all the others with various levels of GID that will never really be touched by anybody.

[Suzy]

The problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics.

Not to mention all the others with various levels of GID that will never really be touched by anybody.

This is indeed what makes finding a one-size-fits-all description so very difficult.  Many of the people I talk to IRL have no intention of going the traditional route.  I know all of the anecdotes are true for various settings, but hardly hold water universally.  I know I've said it before, but for standards to work, they first need to be descriptive rather than prescriptive.  Otherwise individuals feel forced into roles to fit the standards.  In that case the standards, while of great benefit to many, become hurtful to others.

Kristi

[taru]

Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics

There is also the problem that many people in "official" care tend to give the expected answers rather than the truth.

[Fer]

Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics

There is also the problem that many people in "official" care tend to give the expected answers rather than the truth.

They've got to be insane then.  If you are not gender dysphoric the worst thing you can do is lie to "outsmart" the system.  Wouldn't you be the affected person if you did this?  What would a person gain by "outsmarting" the system?  I don't buy it, unless "this person" is a nut case.

[louise000]

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that transsexuals crossdress right up to the time they have GRS and change their sex. When they legally become that sex. My feeling is that transsexuals were transsexuals all their lives. So if they were transsexuals all their life, it
would be appropriate for them to be crossdressed all their life, not just after HRT. Because of this, I don't beleive that not crossdressing is symptomatic of transsexuality.

I'm with Elizabeth on this one. I have been diagnosed as transsexual and yes I do crossdress. I'm sure we all have different ways of dealing with gender dysphoria and it is impossible to classify individual people into nice little standard headings which would suit the 'experts'.

This thread has actually made me feel degraded and "not transsexual enough", because although I have not crossdressed for years, as I said in my previous post I recently bought some everyday clothes and began wearing them as often as I could. I felt it was all part of the process of coming out and making a feeble start on the road to transition, even though I still have the fear of being found out by friends or neighbours who know nothing of my gender dysphoria. I now love wearing my clothes and seeing my reflection, because even though I don't wear skirts much I no longer see a man looking back, but a feminine woman and that makes me feel good and natural. Not like when I was in my late twenties, when I destroyed my few items of womens clothing because then - with my then short hair, hairy body and no makeup - I only saw myself as a man dressed as a woman and I was even more disgusted with myself. No so now, because I've found that if I go out dressed, once I'm away from my home patch I'm safe, the people I meet hardly give me a second glance, so either I am passing or they just don't give a damn. And I feel good because I can be ME. The bad and most depressing part is when I have to change back into mens attire just to be acceptable to my wife, friends, family, etc. But I treasure every minute that I can be 100 per cent Louise, because she is me.

I'll have to let the 'experts' decide whether or not I'm transsexual, transgendered, ->-bleeped-<- or transwhatever, quite frankly my dear I couldn't give a damn.

[Elizabeth]

Also, the problem with studies about TS is that many go through a private route and DIY and in fact those may have a very different take than those that go through gender clinics

There is also the problem that many people in "official" care tend to give the expected answers rather than the truth.

They've got to be insane then.  If you are not gender dysphoric the worst thing you can do is lie to "outsmart" the system.  Wouldn't you be the affected person if you did this?  What would a person gain by "outsmarting" the system?  I don't buy it, unless "this person" is a nut case.

What if one thinks the system is FUBAR? I believe that transsexuality is self diagnosed. I don't believe anyone can tell anyone they are transsexual. I believe transsexuals have to say they are transsexual. The reason people lie to therapists is so they won't be denied transition, which they believe is necessary. In the end, transition is something we decide. I could think of nothing more dangerous than to have GRS on someone's advice. This whole notion that "all" transsexuals do this or that or behave this way or that way is all nonsense. Just like all women are different so are all transsexuals. This one size fits all approach can not be correct, simply because it's not correct anywhere else.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[taru]

They've got to be insane then.  If you are not gender dysphoric the worst thing you can do is lie to "outsmart" the system.  Wouldn't you be the affected person if you did this?  What would a person gain by "outsmarting" the system?  I don't buy it, unless "this person" is a nut case.

But if one *is* gender dysphoric it makes sense to get treatment. For those of us in countries with socialized medicine changing therapist to a more understanding one is typically not possible. Thus if one does not fit into what the therapist believes, one can 1) lie and get treatment, 2) say the truth and get no treatment (or black market), 3) move to an another country.

It would be better if there was a therapist that would not require occasional lying, but in the end getting safe treatment is a high priority for many.

[RebeccaFog]

I would like to know what the objective of this thread is:  Is it to say that cross-dressers are the same as transsexuals?  is it to say that cross-dressers are oppressed by the TS community?  or is it to determine the difference between cross-dressers and transsexuals?

My answers to my own questions:

My answer to question number one:  NO
My answer to question number two:  I already answered.  They are misunderstood not demonized.  Problems arise when people try to imply that cross-dressers or ->-bleeped-<-s are the same as transsexuals (pre, non, or post op)
My answer to question number three:  Yes, there is a huge difference.  IMO, and based on my experience with other TS's the difference is abysmal.

tink

Still I ask, what is the objective of this thread? 


tink

The objective is to see how many times we can beat ourselves over the head with a topic that nobody will ever agree on.
   I fail to see that anything will ever be accomplished.  I've yet to see one person state that their point of view has been changed by one of these discussions.

[Kate]

   The objective is to see how many times we can beat ourselves over the head with a topic that nobody will ever agree on.
   I fail to see that anything will ever be accomplished.  I've yet to see one person state that their point of view has been changed by one of these discussions.

Well, I think the goal was to discuss whether CDrs get unfairly picked on by the TS community... not to debate the differences, and who's "real" and who's not and all that fun stuff.

But I think the way threads tend to devolve into that anyway... with a certain segment of the community absolutely freaking out should they ever be lumped in the same category as CDrs... sorta answers the question.

~Kate~

[RebeccaFog]

   The objective is to see how many times we can beat ourselves over the head with a topic that nobody will ever agree on.
   I fail to see that anything will ever be accomplished.  I've yet to see one person state that their point of view has been changed by one of these discussions.

Well, I think the goal was to discuss whether CDrs get unfairly picked on by the TS community... not to debate the differences, and who's "real" and who's not and all that fun stuff.

But I think the way threads tend to devolve into that anyway... with a certain segment of the community absolutely freaking out should they ever be lumped in the same category as CDrs... sorta answers the question.

~Kate~

Exactly, Sweetie.

   It'd be nice if it didn't devolve.  The initial question is a good one but got crushed by the posturing.

[Melissa]

If someone were born with a male body and they are wearing the clothing of a female, regardless of what their motivation is, they are crossdressed. Once transition is complete, one is no longer crossdressed because their body becomes female.

You are a woman. To me you are as much woman as any woman I have ever met. A penis will not make you a man and it does not make you an impostor.

At first these 2 statements look like contradicting viewpoints, until you realize that you define male and man differently as well as woman and female.  I disagree with you saying a person suddenly has a female body once they have GRS--that only gives them female genitalia. 

For instance with myself, my body is completely female with the exception of my genitalia.  To the world who cannot see what I have between my legs, I am female.  To be wearing women's clothes does not come across to society as crossdressing and in fact wearing very male clothing (such as a suit) would probably get me stared at more than anything.  So to say GRS is the line that needs to be crossed for it to not consider being "crossdressing", is a fallacy that somebody not educated with gender issues would likely adopt.

Like I've said before, I personally have no problems with crossdressers doing what they do for whatever reasons, I just am not one.  A label is just a way of associating a set of general characteristics with an individual.  Since I don't have the same characteristics as a typical crossdresser (including the same motivations, whatever they may be), to label *me* as such is tantamount to misappropriation of the facts.

[Elizabeth]

Melissa,

My point in the first one was to point out that all transsexuals crossdress. The second one was to say that yes, transsexuals are their target sex. In my mind there is no contradiction.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Melissa]

My point in the first one was to point out that all transsexuals crossdress. The second one was to say that yes, transsexuals are their target sex. In my mind there is no contradiction.

But doesn't crossdressing mean that one dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex?  Personally, I think it's just semantics. 

I think your overall point was actually that whether one crossdresses (in the sense that they are not yet intending to transition) or not has no bearing on whether somebody is actually transsexual, which I completely agree with.  I did some very minimal dressing in private, but as soon as I attempted it in public, that amplified the dysphoria and after a bit of answer finding, transition soon followed within the next couple of months (although appointments were almost immediately scheduled).  I knew within a week of wearing female clothes in public that I was going to transition in some capacity.

Now as far as you go, I believe your situation is that you are living fulltime as a woman, but at this point cannot start HRT or have SRS due to financial reasons which are due to a medical condition.  However, I am under the impression that if given the means and opportunity, you would physically transition without hesitation and the intention is what makes all the difference in the world.

[Elizabeth]

My point in the first one was to point out that all transsexuals crossdress. The second one was to say that yes, transsexuals are their target sex. In my mind there is no contradiction.

But doesn't crossdressing mean that one dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex?  Personally, I think it's just semantics. 

I think your overall point was actually that whether one crossdresses (in the sense that they are not yet intending to transition) or not has no bearing on whether somebody is actually transsexual, which I completely agree with.  I did some very minimal dressing in private, but as soon as I attempted it in public, that amplified the dysphoria and after a bit of answer finding, transition soon followed within the next couple of months (although appointments were almost immediately scheduled).  I knew within a week of wearing female clothes in public that I was going to transition in some capacity.

Now as far as you go, I believe your situation is that you are living fulltime as a woman, but at this point cannot start HRT or have SRS due to financial reasons which are due to a medical condition.  However, I am under the impression that if given the means and opportunity, you would physically transition without hesitation and the intention is what makes all the difference in the world.

I think you got it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[EricaCD]

[She reads]
[She looks up some of the tricky words]
[She gets confused]

[She resumes shopping online, pausing long enough to be glad that most transexuals and crossdressers remember that what we have in common is vastly more important than the distinctions among ourselves.  That's not to say the distinctions don't matter - they certainly do - but a sense of perspective also helps.  As does a sense of humor.]

[RebeccaFog]

Are TG's crossdressed in the demon community?

[ChildOfTheLight]

Let's say demons are those jerkfaces who don't like TGs.  They think we're all crossdressers out to trick good straight men.  (I doubt they realize FTMs exist.)

Therefore, yes, TGs are crossdressed in the demon community.