''You'll never be a manly man...''

[captains]

(/ ''girly girl'' for the ladies on here, because I wanted to hear from y'all too! Which is why I'm putting this in the Transgender Talk sub.)

Jeez, I feel like I'm posting a lot here these days. Lots of downtime at work, I guess.

Anyway, the thread title is something my mom said to me after I came out. It was a smidge disheartening, if just because it accidentally hit in that strange Gender Failure place, but ultimately she's probably right. I know that after I transition, I'll be seen as soft, even feminine, to people who see me as 100% boy.

That's pretty weird to me. I'm used to being the most butch person in the room, and for the friendly teasing I receive to be because I'm read as overtly masculine, even a little bro-y. But I'm coming to realize that what's seen as manly on a 'girl' is pretty different from what's seen as manly on a guy. Ain't no one gonna whistle when I do a pull up or open a pickle jar anymore.

Wacky stuff, right? For you folks who were 'gender non-conforming' (in regards to your birth sex) prior to transition, did you find that you stayed manly/girly when you were situated in your correct gender? Or was it a little whiplashy for you? Did anyone else find/fear that they went from feminine man --> tomboy, butch --> ... god help me, I was called a twink the other day. 

[Amy The Bookworm]

I'm ... not sure anyone should aspire to be a so called 'manly man'. The few I know are real pigs.

As for if you still have some feminine qualities, you know what? effeminate men, or masculine men who have some feminine qualities are still men.

I'm a trans woman. The few times I've gotten the chance to go fully into girl mode, I wear lip stick, spend forever on my hair, wear a dress, move and talk in a feminine manner, don't understand men (...never have...) and so on. But some traditionally masculine things I won't let go of are the fact that I'm a huge geek! Nothing, not even transition, will come between me and my video games and my star wars collection.

And I'm ok with that.

[Indoctrinated]

I totally missed the point. Sorry.

[captains]

I sure hope I won't be seen as an ->-bleeped-<- regardless of whether I'm masculine or feminine. Being kind, considerate and approachable are all traits which are important to me no matter of how my beard is coming in. I wouldn't throw that away if it were the most girly thing in the world. Of course, like you, and like most enlightened folks, I don't think chauvinism is equivalent to manhood, and I feel comfortable with myself as a '''''sensitive''''' guy.

@Amy: As a fellow geek, I feel you! I guess what I'm asking is ... was it strange for you to have this part of you that was once considered ''typical'' (video games/geek culture) on a guy suddenly be perceived as ''gender non-conforming'' when you were out as a girl? Did it take some getting used to? Because that's what I'm starting to experience, and it's a little funny.

My workout habits, which were considered ''masculine'' on a woman, are now totally normative; my soft hands and bookish bend, which were unremarkable for a girl, are now read as particularly gentle or soft. Gender roles are funny things.

Am I making sense? I don't mean to call anyone's gender into question at all, or anything like that. I don't think that gender performance is equal to gender identity, and I especially don't think that maleness/femaleness/non-binaryness is composed of a rigid set of societally approved requirements.

[LoriLorenz]

I was always considered a tom boy, and had to be TAUGHT how to be "prim" and "feminine" (particularly in the presence of one woman, who has VERY traditional values...) I refused to wear dresses and skirts, and now choose dress pants over a skirt/dress. I have a few of those loose fitting garments still in my closet and they have not been touched in a few years... (maybe time for the donation bin).

I would rather be one of the guys than one of the girls any day.

Amy, as a by-birth female, I have ALWAYS been proudly Geek. LLAP my dear!

[FTMax]

I've always presented very masculinely and I'd like to think it's stayed about the same since starting to transition. I think I wore a dress maybe once in my entire life? Always tied my hair up until I decided to cut it all off. Always played with the boys, got messy, wanted to be outside, etc. Very much a tom boy in my youth, which translated to very butch in my teen years. The first time I tried to transition, I actually ended up becoming more androgynous because of the fashions that were in at the time (yeah, I make a really cute "scene" boy  ). I didn't end up fully transitioning at that point, and I think that's a big part of what has influenced my feelings on gender presentation and masculinity now.

I'm not aspiring to be an ->-bleeped-<-  But I would say "manly man" is something I aspire to and would like to identify with someday. As it is now, I'm more bro and less lumberjack, and that's just not good enough for me.

[ImagineKate]

My wife looked at my face and my done eyebrows and said, "they look weird." I asked," so do they look feminine?" She said,"no they dont!"

I dunno, I think they do to a degree. She's in denial.

She also said she never saw signs... Maybe because I hate being an effeminate man because an effeminate man is still a man!

[Rachel]

I am a GEEK

I will never look like a  girl and I am a jean and top type woman. I am about as much a woman as 1/2 the woman I work with.

[ImagineKate]

I agree about the jeans part. I mean I do enjoy dresses and skirts but for the most part I'm happy wearing jeans and a nice top.

[Ash]

I got the whole you'll never be a girly girl speech from the madre too.
And I kind of experience the same thing as you, but in reverse.
I'm the most effeminate guy right now when I'm presenting as a boy with some freedom. By far. Outdo a lot of my female friends even. Although I can go into grumpy straight boy mode too 
But when I'm fully free among my friends, I'm not quite ladylike all the time.
But I'll always love my sports. Especially my footy. But I don't know of any of my female friends with even a passing interest in it.
Although I'm still a Princess. Just one that will end up on the counch, jeans, hoodie, snapback and playing my video games like the little nerd that I am.
Even though I wouldn't mind being the pinkest, sparkliest Princess in all the Queendoms 

[Skyler]

I understand where you're coming from. But like many others said I would never aspire to be a "manly man" or a "stereotypical guy". I am perceived as quite "feminine" for a guy i suppose. Funny enough i became even more feminine when coming out as a T guy because I became more comfortable with my gender. It is indeed funny how gender stereotypes work out as now im not perceived as masculine but as feminine...I suppose thats society for you.

But i'm happy to be a pretty boy none the less.

[Arch]

I know that after I transition, I'll be seen as soft, even feminine, to people who see me as 100% boy.

Why do you think this is true? It sure as heck hasn't been true for me.

[Devlyn]

Responsible men are better than manly men. Responsible men know to follow rules and respect people's wishes , and if a lady asks responsible men not to swear in her house, they don't swear in her house.

11. Foul or obscene language, and/or subjects belongs on the street, Please do not bring it on to my site.

[captains]

Responsible men are better than manly men. Responsible men know to follow rules and respect people's wishes , and if a lady asks responsible men not to swear in her house, they don't swear in her house.

11. Foul or obscene language, and/or subjects belongs on the street, Please do not bring it on to my site.

Oops, sorry! I know I can get foul mouthed. Will edit when I'm not mobile replying.

Also, I'd like to clarify again that my question had nothing to do with manliness or masculinity in and of itself, nor the legitimacy of male/femaleness in gender non conforming individuals, cis or trans. People across the gender spectrum present in a variety of ways, none of which, in my opinion, carries any more inherent worth than any other.

I was just curious about they way people's gender presentation was perceived by others after their body began to change. Sorry if I touched any nerves, not my intention at all.

[captains]

Why do you think this is true? It sure as heck hasn't been true for me.

Ho ho, so this is what I was curious about! Honestly, I just keep getting told so by my friends and family, and ... I dunno, I figured they probably weren't wrong. I guess I tend to assume that people notice traits which are considered incongruous before they notice the more normative ones. Right now, that seems to be my more masculine traits.

I do have feminine mannerisms, though -- some so-called girly traits and feminine tendencies -- and I wouldn't be surprised if those were what stood out once I was read by society as male. Like the timbre of my voice. Of course the pitch will change, but I get a lot of commentary on my aforementioned unladylike vocabulary. When I pass, though, the swearing is never noticed one way or another. Instead, what I hear is gossip about the dynamism of my voice (... and by that I mean people telling me I sound 'gay.')

I was always offered misplaced reassurances that I "wasn't too boyish," and I took that to mean that I read as very Girl, despite my internal sense of self. But maybe that was all rubbish, idk.

Did you find that you stayed on the "same plane," so to speak?

[Arch]

If you do have mannerisms that are typically female, then I can see that people might read you as a femme man or a gay man. In my experiences with FTMs here in town, I found that I was reading a lot of them as gay or bi when they were just the opposite. I realized that I was picking up on feminine-style markers--speech inflections, hand gestures, and so on. Some of these guys come across as very MALE but have a few mannerisms that seem femmy or gay. I'm not sure how else to put it.

Before they transitioned, a lot of these straight guys had spent much of their time in lesbian spaces and actually hadn't spent much time around men. I figure that they either picked up certain mannerisms or didn't bother to erase them. As a gay trans man, I spent most of my time hanging around with other guys (mostly straight, though) and either didn't pick up the "feminine" mannerisms or unconsciously eradicated them. Consequently, I'm read as straight pretty much everywhere, even in gay circles. My gay friends, who know nothing about my past, agree that I'm one of the butch ones. Not obvious. Straight-acting. (Well, a lot of cis gay men are, too.)

I'm not sure what you mean by the same plane. I was pretty butch before transition--I mean that I wasn't really feminine in any obvious ways except for my body--and I come across as masculine now. I may be middle-aged and slowly falling to pieces, so I'm not read as a strong blue-collar guy who works on cars for a living or anything like that. But as I said, nobody seems to think I'm at all feminine. Of course, I can't go around to random strangers and ask them, "Do I seem at all femmy to you?"

[JustASeq]

I do wear dresses,skirts etc almost daily, but even when wearing jeans I am  presenting as female like usual. Doesn't mean I don't have muscles or go to the skatepark and show up everyone at the park and still come of as female to the people I encounter . People come in all shapes, sizes and personalities and have varying degrees of interest in a wide range of activities and subjects. That was something I am glad I realized early on, otherwise I wouldn't be as happy overall or have the confidence I do now.

No one can really just say someone is feminine or masculine without being sexist, either through internalized oppression or willing ignorance.

I can see both sides of the coin since after all I am like everyone else, a product of the patriarchal system and I perpetuate it, even if it is unwillingly. Feeling like you see yourself in the mirror is great for your self esteem, however it really bugs me that society will still register somebody as a certain gender for how they look, act or what activities they enjoy.

I could ramble on about my opinion on feminine and masculine forever. When it comes down to it, I feel like the best people I know are a blend (not always equal parts) of the two. (weird right? I contradicted myself! But it's because the sexist concepts of feminine and masculine, while I may not agree with some definitions, have been programmed into me over my lifetime by society.)

[suzifrommd]

Of course, like you, and like most enlightened folks, I don't think chauvinism is equivalent to manhood, and I feel comfortable with myself as a '''''sensitive''''' guy.

Whoever is saying that a sensitive guy can't be manly, or that manly means insensitive, that person should be asked "Who gave you the monopoly in defining manliness?"

The meaning of manliness is something that every man gets to define for himself.

[Edge]

When I was pretending to be a woman, I'd either confuse people because I have a lot of masculine traits, but like purple and skirts (for example) or people would assume I'm masculine. For awhile after I came out, I got a lot of people telling me "it's ok to be an effeminate man" which is true and fine, but it was with the insinuation that they see me as effeminate. Now, I kind of expect people to see me as feminine, but people generally see me as more masculine.

The meaning of manliness is something that every man gets to define for himself.

I like this and agree.

[captains]

Whoever is saying that a sensitive guy can't be manly, or that manly means insensitive, that person should be asked "Who gave you the monopoly in defining manliness?"

The meaning of manliness is something that every man gets to define for himself.

This is exactly what I'm saying? I was attempting to contrast Manliness (TM), the stereotype of men as brutish, rude and unfeeling, with Manliness The Reality, which as you said, is deeply personal.

I can't tell if people are willfully misunderstanding me or if we're all just violently agreeing with each other, but it's getting uncomfortable for me. I really, really, REALLY had no interest in debating about gender roles when I made this post. Hopefully that's clear, no matter where the discussion goes. It's what I was asking at all. (Defensiveness not directed at you, Suzi! I just woke up feeling like this was something I should continue to clarify, since I seem to be struggling to communicate here. I'm done now, I swear)

Thank you everyone for your responses regardless, though. I appreciate your thoughts and stories.