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Opinion of MtF's & FtM's concerning androgynes:: Poll Results

Started by RebeccaFog, August 14, 2007, 05:11:04 PM

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RebeccaFog

Hi,

   It's been a few days since anyone has added votes to my poll.  I guess I'll leave it open so that people who change their mind can change their vote.  Also, new people can add votes as they find the poll.

   This post is just a summary of the poll results.  I want to allow others to comment before I do.

    Just for honesty's sake, I am admitting that I edited a few of the questions for this post so they wouldn't be overly long.


As of 8/14/07
Question:      Do FtM's & MtF's think androgynes are wierd or crazy?  (Be Honest)
Androgynes need not respond.


Question# of votes% of votes
I accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.2346.9%
I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative816.3%
It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity.714.3%
Don't understand/know enough about it to have an opinion.48.2%
I really just think it's a phase.36.1%
You people are deranged. Please leave me alone.24.1%
Undecided12%
I somewhat believe it's a valid gender identity / don't know for sure12%
Total Voters: 49



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no_id

So all-with-all that basically means the following:

48.8%     Believes or somewhat believes that Androgyne is a valid Gender Identity
40.8%     Does not believe that Androgyne is a valid Gender Identity
10.3%     Is undecided or unsure

I don't think there's a need to point out that those are close numbers, but I do wonder how everyone feels about it.

Personally, I admit that during the time this poll dragged on I did feel somewhat forced to re-explore my mindset. Nevertheless, in the end all that brought was more confirmation that I am Androgyne.

Additionally, I do feel that asking the same questions outside the TG-community would result in a similiar outcome although it wouldn't suprise me if there was more acceptance for Androgyny, and as an argument I'll attach a quote:

Quote from: Andra on August 10, 2007, 01:57:56 AM
Trans people are often those with the most invested in the idea of binary gender, the idea that even though your gender can end up the complete opposite of your body and chromosomes, any other mix-up is somehow completely impossible.  Most cisgendered people will be completely clueless about androgyne/intergender identities but a fair proportion will accept they exists when its explained to them.  If we explain it as another form of gender dysphoria they have no reason to think it's any less likely to be real than transsexualism.

(Yeah I know a lot of people don't believe TS exists either, but it's probably not as many as 90%)

Peace  8)
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RebeccaFog


hi No_id,

  I had to re-examine myself too as the voting went on.  I finally concluded that I am exactly what I thought I was, only a little fuzzy as to specifics.  :-\

  At least we know that if we could figure out a way of educating people, we will have some test subjects to try it out on.
  I'm really curious as to how we are thought of by the people who don't believe our gender identity is as true for us as theirs is for them.  I mean, why do they think we came to this support site?

  Oh well, I'm too tired to think about it right now.

See you around,

Rebis
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Pica Pica

they probably ignore our posts, as i ignore posts about breast forms.
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Shana A

QuoteI'm really curious as to how we are thought of by the people who don't believe our gender identity is as true for us as theirs is for them.  I mean, why do they think we came to this support site?

Yes, that got me too. Almost 50% believed that androgyny was a valid gender identity, so we're off to an OK start though. I also know how long it took me to understand androgyny as a psychological and spiritual sense of self as opposed to merely a form of gender expression. And most of the world around us is highly invested in maintaining (and policing) the gender binary, even other transpeople. As Ricky used to say to Lucy, we've got a lot of 'splaining to do... 

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Kendall

The result is higher then it would have been had you put that poll post up last year before the androgyne section was renamed, or back before the genderqueer section was added. I think at least half of the acceptance vote has been "educated" since this section has been in existence. Though it would not have been zero, it might have been lower or near 25%, I believe, based on a rough guess of the reactions back when the first posts were being posted. And that quarter or so only because of never hearing or knowing about a large group of people feeling that way. And even at this site not having a body of persons representing that view. Except a few buried posts in the TS, IS, and CD/TV sections which would oddly seem out of place. And some androgynes being a silented few, not feeling comfortable even to post anything, for fear of being targeted for those views.

When the section was growing and renamed, many ts were interested in reading and researching more about us, since it was the first time really hearing about it. Though really many have probably read posts about people feeling in between or neither for many years. Probably existing ever since humans have been conscious and anatomical sexes with separate gender constructs have existed. That people have felt different then their "assigned" genders.

The people that make the androgyne section here are called different categories in different communities. Really a name is just a name. No matter what its called, the name doesnt determine the concept of behavior, actions, thinking, beliefs, or related influence. Calling its name one thing or another, doesnt matter to me as long as its not vulgar or disrespectful.

Although the results to me did not mean anything really on how I feel about myself, and have felt since a teenager. Its good to know there are some outside of this androgyne community that support, know, understand, and even accept how I feel. Thank you for those TS that accept me for how I believe, feel, and live as being valid and real. Although it would not have changed what I feel about myself gender wise, it helps me feel a little bit better socially on TG group basis.
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Mia and Marq

I hate to state the obvious but I thought why not?
I don't need people to believe in me or my extraordinary situation in order to embrace it myself. Sure the more people that understand it the easier it is to just express ourselves without any restraint. I think its wonderful that some of those who are not androgynes have questions because they want to understand. I don't mind in the least to answer any and all of their questions as fast as they send them.

When people reach out to you, reach back.

Marq and Mia
Being given the gift of two-spirits meant that this individual had the ability to see the world from two perspectives at the same time. This greater vision was a gift to be shared, and as such, Two-spirited beings were revered as leaders, mediators, teachers, artists, seers, and spiritual guides
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no_id

Quote from: Rebis on August 15, 2007, 04:10:04 PM
I'm really curious as to how we are thought of by the people who don't believe our gender identity is as true for us as theirs is for them.  I mean, why do they think we came to this support site?

Quote from: y2gender on August 15, 2007, 09:19:22 PM
Yes, that got me too. Almost 50% believed that androgyny was a valid gender identity, so we're off to an OK start though.

There was a bell in the distance. Someone told me to rumble.

The majority of that 40.8% did not elaborate on their vote while it is in fact their point of view that allows Androgynes to be able to isolate important fragments that should be explained further in order to establish more understanding. Therefore the majority of those voters completely missed the initial, and most important motivation by which the poll was created; they completely missed the point. To take that even a step further, as Jaycie would say (although reworded): "If an individual cannot explain their reasoning it is not their business to vote. An opinion; a standpoint should be supported by arguments whether these are biased or unbiased." Now it's just another paper of statistics that means absolutely nothing.

Additionally, I'd like to impose a question for KK and M&M in order to take things a step further:

Under similar circumstances would you be able to brush off the outcome as easily if some of the supported phrases would be "Bigenderists are simply CD's in denial" and/or "Bigenderism equals MPD/Shizotypical personality disorders" ?

... And then then bell rang again, and I figured I'd rather take a breather.
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Marq and Mia on August 15, 2007, 10:44:25 PM
I hate to state the obvious but I thought why not?
I don't need people to believe in me or my extraordinary situation in order to embrace it myself. Sure the more people that understand it the easier it is to just express ourselves without any restraint. I think its wonderful that some of those who are not androgynes have questions because they want to understand. I don't mind in the least to answer any and all of their questions as fast as they send them.

When people reach out to you, reach back.

Marq and Mia

I prefer to reach into their wallets.   :D
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Kendall

Quote from: no_id on August 16, 2007, 07:46:36 AM
Additionally, I'd like to impose a question for KK and M&M in order to take things a step further:

Under similar circumstances would you be able to brush off the outcome as easily if some of the supported phrases would be "Bigenderists are simply CD's in denial" and/or "Bigenderism equals MPD/Shizotypical personality disorders" ?


I would follow such phrase with this process.

First, I think such statement would be academic not practical. There is sufficient numbers of bigenderists, CDs, and MPD that I know are out there. I dont know of any derogatory label of any of the 3, that would present one as being more desirable than the other, realistically. How is being CD better than mpd, or bigenderist better than cd, or mpd better than bigenderist?

Second, I would question the reason for such claim. Sounds to me like someone who once identified and now doesn't (revenge: throwing stones back), someone trying to gather more numbers (discount their beliefs to make them come to their side), someone trying to minimize the other's identity and self esteem (I am greater than you), journalistic (in search of real answers, education, or sensational stories) or scientific enquiry hopefully followed by tests, review, further q&a, and credible research.

Third I would question the credentials and credibility.  What psychology or sociology experience or education. Or is it just a amateur inquiry, diagnosis, or definitions.

Quotewould you be able to brush off the outcome
Quite easily!
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no_id

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on August 16, 2007, 10:52:56 AM
Quotewould you be able to brush off the outcome
Quite easily!

Must be nice to be that secure/confident.  8)

Nevertheless, it wouldn't suprise me if someone threw in a legit argument along the lines of DSM-recognition, and point out Bigenderism in terms of Two-spirited phenomena in Native Tribes which is surrounded by quite some controversy. *shrugs* But, I'm not sitting at that side of the table.
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Kendall

DSM?

One can quote the DSM, but the DSM itself warns against non professionals doing so. It also mentions built in weaknesses, lack of research for future diagnosis. It focuses on diagnosis that can be treated with therapy, drugs, surgery, or other procedures.
And even then it creates NOS = Not otherwise specified diagnosis as a sorta catch-all for other related possible people.

What does the DSM say about itself?

About categories and criterion
Quote"there is no assumption that each category of mental disorder is a completely discrete entity with absolute boundaries..."

About only professionals using it
QuoteIt is important to understand that the appropriate use of the diagnostic criteria requires clinical training and that they cannot be simply applied in a cookbook fashion.


There is no medicine, no surgical procedures, no therapy that can cure bigender. Its a bible for TS, because such diagnosis can lead to a letter, that leads to hormones, that leads to a year rlt, that leads to surgery.

Bigenderists dont need letters, hormones, srs, or anything like that. None that I know of at least.

To other transgender people, its worthless. Even the TV or CD, except to compare to TS. And even then there is no clear cut definitions citing exact circumstances. The leave open ended things like the NOS.

QuoteGIDNOS

And, to accommodate anyone who does not meet the specific sub-classification criteria, the DSM-IV has a "catch-all" classification:

302.6 Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS)


As for TS, it just comes down to 5 main things. Persistence of desire, need to pass, desire to live as, conviction, and desire to get rid of birth characteristics.

QuoteIn adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as

A. stated desire to be the other sex,
frequent passing as the other sex,
desire to live or be treated as the other sex,
or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.

B. preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics

DSM is mainly a TS topic.


About topics not included. Well what does the DSM say about it?

QuoteQ:        What does it mean if a diagnosis is not included in the DSM?

A:         It only means that, as of 1994, there was not sufficient data to justify its inclusion in the DSM-IV.   Just because a category is not included in DSM-IV does not necessarily mean that it is invalid, or not worthy of being a focus of research or treatment.


QuoteAs the DSM has become increasingly more informed by research, so has the basis for inclusion of new categories in the DSM.   As stated above, originally categories were included because they were felt to represent what psychiatrists were treating.   In later editions of the DSM (DSM-III-R and DSM-IV), new categories were only considered for inclusion if there was significant data available to allow critical consideration of the relevant merits and risks of inclusion.   In contrast, some categories that date back to older editions of the DSM may have relatively little empirical data.  Thus, because the data requirement for consideration of new categories has become more stringent, some proposed categories that were ultimately rejected may have had more data available than grandfathered categories already in the DSM.
http://dsmivtr.org/2-1faqs.cfm
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no_id

Thanks for the info KK ;D Don't forget to breathe though :P

Also, I do feel like suggesting to add this thread to the FAQ because if the dice does continue to roll like this, and individuals do dare to impose questions on one another (eh roleplay???) then this could turn into quite a source for information.

So people, let's get to work!  8) Think about possible questions and throw them at someone (whoever)!

.... Gah I love being moronic!
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RebeccaFog

Androgynes don't need to steenking DSM.   >:D

   to be perfectly honest, people are perfectly able to decide how they want to live and who they want to be.  The only time I would think any kind of professional person need be involved is when the person desires surgery.  I know that some people think even that is unnecessary, but I prefer to stay on the safe side and encourage people to work with designated professionals.

   Although, if I decide on an orchi, I don't think I should need somebody's approval.  But, if I were just a confused person going through a bad time, I would appreciate some guidance.  How do I prove that I'm not confused?  ???
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Shana A

Although there's no official DSM diagnosis for androgyne, we could be included in TS non-op category. Unfortunately, as I understand it, if an androgyne desires surgery or hrt, zie would still need to find a therapist to sign for that.

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Hyena

Ah, crud.

Don't you think being in the DSM pathologizes androgyny? I suppose it might seem to give a ring of legitmacy to have it listed  as a condition, but doctors tend to conflate variations from the norm with illness.  For example, I'm rather flat-footed and had to wear goofy orthopedic shoes as a kid. I have absolutely no trouble walking, but it was decided it was unhealthy. Why? Because most people have higher arches than I do. Of course, it's a ridiculous example, but I'd hate to have people thinking they have some authority backing them when they label us crazy or perverts.
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Shana A

QuoteDon't you think being in the DSM pathologizes androgyny?

Yes, absolutely. I'm not advocating that androgynes be included in the DSM, I have no wish for my gender identity (or lack thereof) to be considered mental illness. Just pointing out that if we wish HRT or surgery, we need to go through the same procedures as TS, or try to find medical professionals who will treat us regardless of a diagnosis.

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Mia and Marq

Believe me, I understand its actually pretty easy for someone to conjure up some sort of doubt about being bigendered or "two spirited" because for the most part its near impossible for someone else to observe. People don't react well to what they can't really explain or see. Where such a poll to form, I doubt theres any chance it would change my resolve so again I'll reach back where those who reach for me that choose to try to understand. There will always be people (most likely a lot of people) that will never choose to understand or accept people like me but that doesn't make me less valid in my eyes. I am who I am and if thats Marq and Mia then thats who I'll always be. No matter how personal the poll's target was, I'll still react the same way, those who choose to listen are going to hear me.

So I say let them throw around whatever opinions they want to make themselves feel comfortable, I'm comfortable already with who I am. Thats not something that can be taken away.

Marq and Mia
Being given the gift of two-spirits meant that this individual had the ability to see the world from two perspectives at the same time. This greater vision was a gift to be shared, and as such, Two-spirited beings were revered as leaders, mediators, teachers, artists, seers, and spiritual guides
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Andrew

I wish it had been possible to answer twice. I believe that "androgyne" is a valid form of gender identity. There are many androgynes who will stay that way their whole life and not wish to be either male or female. But I think that some androgynes are in that place to work out their gender dysphoria. For a time, I considered myself "above gender" (I was about fourteen), but was relentlessly pulled toward the male side. Now I'm a happy FTM, and I'm sure that others have felt the same.

So I wouldn't put all "androgynes" in the category of "true androgyne," but I recognize that it is a valid form of gender expression and that many are very happy being neither gender.
Lock up yer daughters.
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Tay

I'd avoided responding to this, but I wanted to... I've been drawn to it for a bit.

I was hurt by that poll.  Not by the numbers of people who didn't see us as valid.  I was hurt by the fact that they wouldn't elaborate or give reasons.  There was one person in particular, but there was a general trend of saying "Because I think so."

I think that's the most hurtful thing. 

I know that many people don't see my gender identity as valid.  But I don't understand WHY.  I don't understand why the world lives in an unworkable binary--and it is unworkable.  Nature does not contain any true binaries.  They all have some level of mutation in them.  I can't think of a single binary other than "exists" or "does not exist."

Binaries are man made and I don't understand why we worship them so.

I just don't get it.  Nature is not binary.  We are part of nature.  Why do we try to fit into a binary?

And no one will tell me why this binary is so bloody important.  No one will tell me why they see it as the only possibility. 

They all just seem to say "Cause I said so."

And I just want to know why.
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