Screw the binary...is there another way?

[Fae]

I have been having some issues about my ->-bleeped-<- lately. 

After 5 months HRT, I am beginning to wonder if transition is the right thing for me to do.  I'll admit I probably jumped at HRT sooner than I should have, but I'm afraid of stopping hormones because I'll lose all the progress I've made, both physically and emotionally.  I left work for the summer at the end of last week, and went out on Saturday and Sunday dressed as a woman, though since Monday I've just gone back to wearing what few guy clothes I have because Saturday and Sunday felt...awkward.  Bras are damn uncomfortable after a while and the silicone enhancers I have move around and are annoying to adjust.

I think I'm moving too quickly, or maybe moving in the wrong direction.  I've asked myself: Should I just live as a feminine man?  Could I do that?  Do I really need to be socially accepted as a woman?

My gg friend says that the feelings I have are probably because of the hormones.  She said that estrogen makes you indecisive and you have highs and lows, and that I'm just in a low.  I just don't know.

My mother gave me a lecture about how I don't know what it means to be a woman/female.  That she doesn't agree with what I'm doing, and she's afraid that if a guy finds me attractive as a woman and finds out I'm genetically male, that I'll get raped or beaten - or worse.  Her fears are warranted, for I'm scared of the same thing.

It bothers me that the majority of society agrees that there are only two sexes and two genders: male/man; female/woman.  I wish I knew if there was another way but I don't know how to find that path.

Any advise is welcome...

~Fae

[RebeccaFog]

Hi Fae,

   I had been approved for HRT after struggling with the counselor to get it, but I didn't start because I felt I was rushing.  I had been trying to wear some female clothing but it wasn't really working for me.  I finally felt that if I were transsexual, that I could put off the HRT and just try female gender expression.  That didn't work out, though.
   I finally realized that I had no true desire or need to change my body.  I did desire some modification, and still do, but not to the extent of suffering from those desires.  Being transgendered means that each individual has a broad range of gender expression available to them.  I realized that people were expressing themselves for thousands of years without medical aid, so I decided to go that route.
   It just makes sense to me that each person would want to go as far as they can without HRT or SRS before making such a life changing decision.

   Those of us who are androgyne have needs that are much different than the binary choices.  To be honest, as far as I can tell, for many of us, it makes little or no difference what sex our body is.  Some of us are very happy using male & female dressing as a form of expression.  Others find a mix.  And some, such as myself, like to have a kind of neutral thing going.  I think some people call it unisex.
    We also vary greatly in what we desire in terms of body modification.  Some desire no modification while others desire specific mods.  Some of us desire HRT, or at least, consider it as a possibility even if it's just to reach a certain effect or change.  Some of us desire surgery to enhance or REMOVE gender markers.

  It's a big world of variance for tweeners.  It is worth exploring because it doesn't hurt to pull back and reconsider your idea of who you are and who you would like to be in terms of expressing the real you.

   There are several people here who began transition before stopping to reevaluate who they are.  I believe we even have one person who is post op and who has decided that they are happy between the binaries.

   I'm not in any way trying to discourage you from moving ahead if you do believe that you must transition.  I am only offering you the advice that, for some of us (definitely not all), transition is a MUST, and for others it is not immediately, if at all, necessary.

   Stop in the Androgyne Talk section and read our discussions.  I believe you will find they are related to what you are asking here.


Peace,

Rebis

[Shana A]

It bothers me that the majority of society agrees that there are only two sexes and two genders: male/man; female/woman.  I wish I knew if there was another way but I don't know how to find that path.

I think trying to fit into the binary caused me a lot of pain. At first, I thought if I wasn't male, I must be female. It took a long time to come to the realization there were other possibilities. Early in my transition, a good friend told me that it might be hardest for those of us in between gender. She saw this in me before I figured it out. From my own experiences, it's almost like I've had to invent a new language to understand and explain who I am. Best of luck finding your path Fae!

Zythyra

[Karla B]

Fae! It's probably your hormones fluctuating and the bra being uncomfortable, is Just part of  being a woman    I know many GGs that complain about their jobs, Boy friends and what all they have to do when they get home. Times they are unhappy, confused and giddy. These girls complain that they have to wear a skirt pantyhose and heels to work because their boss is in town or they have a meeting to go to. At the end of the day they can't wait to tear it all off and slip on a pair of shorts or trackpants with sandles.
So the issue of not feeling comfortable in the girls clothes, says you've got alot in common with GGs. 
Reading your past posts let me believe that being a women is the only and most thing that you ever wanted. the journey is a long one and there are going to be more days like that.  

Don't feel bad, cheer up!

[Seshatneferw]

I think I'm moving too quickly, or maybe moving in the wrong direction.  I've asked myself: Should I just live as a feminine man?  Could I do that?  Do I really need to be socially accepted as a woman?

It bothers me that the majority of society agrees that there are only two sexes and two genders: male/man; female/woman.  I wish I knew if there was another way but I don't know how to find that path.

That's one of the problems here. The binary gender system is pretty thoroughly entrenched, and if you try to be somewhere in between, people will try to shoehorn you into one of the two boxes. Moreover, breaking the barriers is not symmetrical: a woman with clearly visible male traits is not treated the same as a man with clearly visible female traits.

Considering our society, it's very easy to come to the conclusion that if one isn't really a man one must be a woman instead. That happened to me, too; it took a while to realise that it's not really that simple. Staying somewhere between those two was scary, though, so I didn't seriously consider the option at first. For instance, 'feminine man' has so many connotations and social baggage that I flat out refused to consider myself one -- and besides, that's not what I am, I'm not a man with female traits. I thought I was a woman with some male traits, but that's not really it either, I am too thorough a mix for either label to fit too well. Of course, how others see me is a different matter. They may think me an effeminate weirdo for all I care (or that's what i'm trying to convince myself  ).

From what I've read, the fact that you have survived several months of HRT without too much anguish is a pretty good indication that you are not male. On the other hand, if you can seriously consider stopping you may not be completely female either. For now, you might as well continue the treatment as long as you feel comfortable with it, but try to keep track of your feelings regarding what it's doing to you.

In short, there are indeed other ways, but those are not marked on the standard edition of the road map. You'll have to find them. Others may give you some directions, but in the end you have to make your own way through the thickets. 

Bon voyage,

  Nfr

[Fae]

Fae! It's probably your hormones fluctuating and the bra being uncomfortable, is Just part of  being a woman    I know many GGs that complain about their jobs, Boy friends and what all they have to do when they get home. Times they are unhappy, confused and giddy. These girls complain that they have to wear a skirt pantyhose and heels to work because their boss is in town or they have a meeting to go to. At the end of the day they can't wait to tear it all off and slip on a pair of shorts or trackpants with sandles.
So the issue of not feeling comfortable in the girls clothes, says you've got alot in common with GGs. 
Reading your past posts let me believe that being a women is the only and most thing that you ever wanted. the journey is a long one and there are going to be more days like that.  

Don't feel bad, cheer up!

I thought that being a woman was the most important thing, but now I'm having second thoughts.  I may have a lot in common with my gg friends, but as far as making sacrifices to live as a woman - that is something I'm doubting I can do at this point.

From what I've read, the fact that you have survived several months of HRT without too much anguish is a pretty good indication that you are not male. On the other hand, if you can seriously consider stopping you may not be completely female either. For now, you might as well continue the treatment as long as you feel comfortable with it, but try to keep track of your feelings regarding what it's doing to you.

In short, there are indeed other ways, but those are not marked on the standard edition of the road map. You'll have to find them. Others may give you some directions, but in the end you have to make your own way through the thickets. 

I think it's only been recently that my brain has been like "woah, wait a minute here..." and I've actually considered that I have other options.  I know that inside I'm female, but outside I'm male...that was something that didn't bother me as much as it did before I was on anti-depressants - and I was on those months before I began HRT, so maybe there's something else at work here? 

I may still have to find my own path, or maybe I've already arrived?  I've felt pretty confident about myself over the last few months and I'm very hopeful about the future.

It's continuing on my current path that scares me, so I called my endo about reducing the HRT dosage.  I think my transition was just about accepting my feminine identity while shedding the ultra-masculine skin I wore for so long.  If I've arrived, great, but if not......it's time to find a different way.

~Fae

[Kate]

Saturday and Sunday dressed as a woman, though since Monday I've just gone back to wearing what few guy clothes I have because Saturday and Sunday felt...awkward.  Bras are damn uncomfortable...

LOL, tell me about it

I think it's GREAT you're courageous enough to not let labels define you, or to feel pressured to "be" this or that. You know I always say NEEDS > EXPLANATIONS. You gotta find your own way, independent of definitions and expectations.

Just be aware that the Great Unknown of transition can scare people off for awhile, and they often justify it to themselves by saying they're not really TS after all. Transition has it's rewards, but the practicalities are a royal pain sometimes. Mood swings, uncomfy and hot bras, bad hair days, worries about passing, unwanted attention from men, a totally inSANE sizing system for clothing... it's not fun.

My wife insisted I didn't have to change physically, her logic being, "if you're already a woman, and since you've really always been treated kinda like one anyway, why do you have to change?" A valid point, and I considered just being "me" as a male, and not hiding anything feminine anymore. But in the end, I truly MUST be *female*, however I need to define that. The two components, both social AND physical, must come together. One won't stand without the other for me. So transition, whatever it takes, is my only way.

~Kate~

[asiangurliee]

I have been having some issues about my ->-bleeped-<- lately. 

After 5 months HRT, I am beginning to wonder if transition is the right thing for me to do.  I'll admit I probably jumped at HRT sooner than I should have, but I'm afraid of stopping hormones because I'll lose all the progress I've made, both physically and emotionally.  I left work for the summer at the end of last week, and went out on Saturday and Sunday dressed as a woman, though since Monday I've just gone back to wearing what few guy clothes I have because Saturday and Sunday felt...awkward.  Bras are damn uncomfortable after a while and the silicone enhancers I have move around and are annoying to adjust.

I think I'm moving too quickly, or maybe moving in the wrong direction.  I've asked myself: Should I just live as a feminine man?  Could I do that?  Do I really need to be socially accepted as a woman?

My gg friend says that the feelings I have are probably because of the hormones.  She said that estrogen makes you indecisive and you have highs and lows, and that I'm just in a low.  I just don't know.

My mother gave me a lecture about how I don't know what it means to be a woman/female.  That she doesn't agree with what I'm doing, and she's afraid that if a guy finds me attractive as a woman and finds out I'm genetically male, that I'll get raped or beaten - or worse.  Her fears are warranted, for I'm scared of the same thing.

It bothers me that the majority of society agrees that there are only two sexes and two genders: male/man; female/woman.  I wish I knew if there was another way but I don't know how to find that path.

Any advise is welcome...

~Fae

I've been on hormones for half a year and I can relate to how you are feeling. I am feeling indecisive as well. and if I am making the wrong decision, but at the end of the day, I don't see myself stopping my hormones.  Do you?

I want to applaud you for your courage to post this, because it is certainly not the typical discourse to talk about how you might be wrong or if you could reverse back to the original form. My biggest problem is that I won't have my own kids, otherwise, I really don't care because I am enjoying life as a girl, no doubt about it but the question is , is this good enough when I am old and wrinkly? Would I rather have children when I get older and would that be the most important thing to me and not my gender and how I want to live? Although I don't know how I can have children even if I was male since I am not sexually attracted to women whatsoever.

My mom is exactly like yours! She thinks I am going through a phase and she doesn't agree with it (but she doesn't condemn me). She is also very scared for my safety because men do hit on me in public.

I think I also got on HRT very quickly because I didn't want to be any more older , I was 23 and I couldn't wait anymore. It's a challenge and I wish I have the answer but I don't. I hope you find yours.


The binary system also bothers me, it really does, I don't know what I would have done with myself and how i would have been different If the world is full of many genders, I really don't know.

It's unfortunate we can't find out.

[Shana A]

The binary system also bothers me, it really does, I don't know what I would have done with myself and how i would have been different If the world is full of many genders, I really don't know.

It's unfortunate we can't find out.

Yes, a world that celebrated and welcomed EVERY gender identity and expression on the continuum would truly be a utopia. While we're not there yet, the more of us who choose to bravely live in the space that feels right for us, and work to achieve the legal rights and protections to do so, the closer we get to that world.

Zythyra

[asiangurliee]

The binary system also bothers me, it really does, I don't know what I would have done with myself and how i would have been different If the world is full of many genders, I really don't know.

It's unfortunate we can't find out.

Yes, a world that celebrated and welcomed EVERY gender identity and expression on the continuum would truly be a utopia. While we're not there yet, the more of us who choose to bravely live in the space that feels right for us, and work to achieve the legal rights and protections to do so, the closer we get to that world.

Zythyra

Yeah of course, but what I dislike is that cisgender (nontranssexual) people think that surgery can change one's gender or that if you are a transsexual, you must have had a surgery of you will have a surgery. This is even disputed within the trans community.  A lot of people don't understand that you can be a transsexual without wanting to undergo a surgery and the more prevalent discourse is the transsexuals who want srs or the crossdresser who dresses up for sexual fetish.

There is no in between identity that one can claim as a legitimate way of living, except those portrayed on porn sites.   There is no space for in between people and it's really an oppressive state to be in.

[Luc]

Certainly we can find out! It should be apparent simply from reading these forums! Gender is fluid, folks... binary is BS. Plenty of men are feminine, plenty of women are masculine, and there are so many things in between, it's incredibly. I, personally, currently consider myself to be a female-bodied, masculine-identifying androgyne. I am a non-op, non-hormone transsexual. An FtM, I suppose. But try to fit me into a perfect little binary box... no way. Fae, do what feels best for you. Perhaps try going off hormones a bit, then see how you feel. If no one else cared about whether you conformed to a perfect ideal of how a woman "should" be, would you?

Dino

[Shana A]

Yeah of course, but what I dislike is that cisgender (nontranssexual) people think that surgery can change one's gender or that if you are a transsexual, you must have had a surgery of you will have a surgery. A lot of people don't understand that you can be a transsexual without wanting to undergo a surgery and the more prevalent discourse is the transsexuals who want srs or the crossdresser who dresses up for sexual fetish.

There is no in between identity that one can claim as a legitimate way of living, except those portrayed on porn sites.   There is no space for in between people and it's really an oppressive state to be in.

Asiangurliee, true, most people don't believe that in-between genders exist, and there is still much misunderstanding and prejudice against those of us who choose non binary options. Change isn't happening anywhere as fast as I'd like to see it, however, I see progress. I'm 51, and when I first started figuring out that my gender was outside the binary, there was considerably less awareness of other options than there are now.

This frumpy middle-aged non-op/non-hrt transgender/androgyne/genderqueer/"guy in a dress"/whatever will keep working for change. Maybe I'll even see some of it in my lifetime. I am truly privileged to work alongside those of you in the next generation who are confronting and dismantling the gender binary! I'm glad you're here, it was getting really #$%^&* lonely out here in the middle of nowhere.

Zythyra

[Fae]

My wife insisted I didn't have to change physically, her logic being, "if you're already a woman, and since you've really always been treated kinda like one anyway, why do you have to change?" A valid point, and I considered just being "me" as a male, and not hiding anything feminine anymore. But in the end, I truly MUST be *female*, however I need to define that. The two components, both social AND physical, must come together. One won't stand without the other for me. So transition, whatever it takes, is my only way.

~Kate~

I'm thinking that may be the path I will eventually follow.  I'm glad that most people (my gg friends anyway) accept and treat me like they would any other woman.  I'm mostly happy with my body, it's just that I think I had some self-esteem issues because I have a bad back.

I've been on hormones for half a year and I can relate to how you are feeling. I am feeling indecisive as well. and if I am making the wrong decision, but at the end of the day, I don't see myself stopping my hormones.  Do you?

If it came down to it, health wise, yes I would.  The reality with HRT for MTFs is that a compromise must be made at some point.  Either you stop HRT or commit to an Orchi or SRS.  Since surgery of any kind scares the ->-bleeped-<- out of me, I'm not ready to make that compromise. 

To answer your question, as much as HRT has changed my body thus far (such changes have been welcome), I think I would stop hormones.

I want to applaud you for your courage to post this, because it is certainly not the typical discourse to talk about how you might be wrong or if you could reverse back to the original form. My biggest problem is that I won't have my own kids, otherwise, I really don't care because I am enjoying life as a girl, no doubt about it but the question is , is this good enough when I am old and wrinkly? Would I rather have children when I get older and would that be the most important thing to me and not my gender and how I want to live? Although I don't know how I can have children even if I was male since I am not sexually attracted to women whatsoever.

There's over 6 billion people on this planet, and there's no reason for me to bring in another one since as a species, humanity is stretched to the limit.  That's why when I began HRT and was asked if I wanted to store sperm, I said no, so I'm probably sterile now after 5 months. 

If it comes to it, I'll adopt a child in need.

There is no in between identity that one can claim as a legitimate way of living, except those portrayed on porn sites.   There is no space for in between people and it's really an oppressive state to be in.

Untrue, as those people portrayed on porn sites are a minority compared to the gender-non-conforming populace  IMO.  There are many ways for people to live between the binary's and still have legal protections under the law in most areas.  Unless you were refering to something else, in which case my bad 

Fae, do what feels best for you. Perhaps try going off hormones a bit, then see how you feel. If no one else cared about whether you conformed to a perfect ideal of how a woman "should" be, would you?

Absolutely not, living as a "perfect ideal of how a woman should be" is rubbish.  If I lived like that, I would certainly be living more of a lie than I was when I masked my feminine personality with an ultra-masculine lifestyle.

I've decided to lower the dosage on my 'mones.  In a few months, if I'm still feeling the way I am now than I will stop HRT and just live as a feminine guy.  Somehow this seems it would be more manageable for me, given other circumstances (family acceptance, college education, etc.)

~Fae

[RebeccaFog]

   It just occurred to me that one of the reasons I no longer felt the need for HRT is that I have a group of people who accept me as whatever I am.   This took the pressure off.  Just being acknowledged as a female person seemed to help a lot.
   One of my brilliant pieces of advice is for people to try to find a way of expressing themselves before starting a treatment.  A true TS will obviously go on to do treatment, but a betweener will find them self.

[Caroline]

   It just occurred to me that one of the reasons I no longer felt the need for HRT is that I have a group of people who accept me as whatever I am.   This took the pressure off.  Just being acknowledged as a female person seemed to help a lot.
   One of my brilliant pieces of advice is for people to try to find a way of expressing themselves before starting a treatment.  A true TS will obviously go on to do treatment, but a betweener will find them self.

I am very glad I spent a good period of time trying to express myself as well as possible within the confines of the male role and I think it's a good thing for everybody to try.  Your last sentence is too much of a generalisation though. There are some inbetweeny people who still want HRT and maybe even genital surgery of some form or other.  It depends on how far your gender identity is from your birth sex, how strong that identity is and on how strong your body dysmorphia is. 

I'm continuing estrogen and anti-androgens even though I don't identify as female.  Need to be careful that I don't end up with undesirable effects but all considered it's definitely worth it, and I totally intend to get GRS.

[asiangurliee]

Either you stop HRT or commit to an Orchi or SRS.

There are many years for me to decide that but I don't have to stop HRT.

My best girl-friend said that she is 2 spirited, but she still wants SRS.   You don't have to identify as completely female to have SRS.

[Fae]

Either you stop HRT or commit to an Orchi or SRS.

There are many years for me to decide that but I don't have to stop HRT.

Neither do I, I'm still young (mid-20s) and I still have several years if I needed it.  I was just pointing out that it eventually comes to that kind of choice because of the affects of long-term HRT.  The only thing is, does one wait until that inevitable point-of-no-return, or does one make that choice now before it's past point-of-no-return?  That is my dilemma.

~Fae

[asiangurliee]

What kind of long term effects are you afraid of?

[Fae]

What kind of long term effects are you afraid of?

Blood clotting for one thing.  A guy I knew who is in his 30s was on HRT, but he had to stop because he had a stroke and nearly died.  He's since had to de-transition and accept living as a feminine man.

~Fae

[Keira]

HRT, done with the proper estrogen (not ethinilestradiol or premarin, EE as hundreds of time the clotting risks as estradiol in any form) at the proper dosage (dosage that give E serum level in female ranges are safe long term, as much as they are for women) and the proper administration mode for your health (liver problems or older than 50, transdermal, everybody else except if congenital clotting risks (like leyden factor), sublingual).

Unless you've got congenital clotting risks, in which case low doses of estradiol valerate injected would be the way to go, the clotting risks are only slightly higher than a GG for sublinguals, and equal for injectables and transdermals.

Anectodes don't say anything about your own situation.

I think in general, the risks of HRT are wildly exaggerated and there is lot more long term risks from eating trans-fats than from HRT.