what is the % of trangenders attaining steath and those who don't

[stephaniec]

just a question out of curiosity . I'll never attain stealth, just wonder what the percentage is of those who need stealth and those who don't.

[ana1111]

ive been thinking about this a lot lately and I think the number of mtf who can actually achieve the level of passability needed to be truly and completely stealth is very low.. at least for those who started after puberty and haven't spent thousands on ffs and other surgeries. Its my belief that a lot of people think there stealth when the reality is people just aren't bringing it up cause there being polite...let me make one thing very clear though and that is theres a big difference to passing in the streets or in quick day to day interactions with strangers and passing in all situations one hundred percent... I definitely believe its possible to be stealth and some mtf definitely have achieved it... but if you started hormones older than your teens and you've had no surgeries I just don't think its possible for most...

[missymay]

ive been thinking about this a lot lately and I think the number of mtf who can actually achieve the level of passability needed to be truly and completely stealth is very low.. at least for those who started after puberty and haven't spent thousands on ffs and other surgeries. Its my belief that a lot of people think there stealth when the reality is people just aren't bringing it up cause there being polite...let me make one thing very clear though and that is theres a big difference to passing in the streets or in quick day to day interactions with strangers and passing in all situations one hundred percent... I definitely believe its possible to be stealth and some mtf definitely have achieved it... but if you started hormones older than your teens and you've had no surgeries I just don't think its possible for most...

Anna, I totally agree with you, stealth status is highly sought after, but as a whole not too many trans women are able to achieve it.  I chose 10-20%, as what is most probable, but, maybe I'm just being jealous, because I can't be stealth, but the reality for me is that I started at age 35, and was extremely fit prior to starting HRT, and still have some residual muscle from those days, and I don't have hips, and not much of a butt (I have to wear hip and butt pads), I'm also 6'0 tall, and although I would not be considered fat, I need to lose some weight, and I have long arms.

I do the best I can to blend in well with cis gendered women; I have developed a female voice, I've had FFS and BA surgery (and will be having liposuction with fat grafting to my hips, and butt implants early next year), I have a feminine walk and mannerisms, but I realize that no matter what I do, I will never achieve stealth status. 

[Tessa James]

Yes ma'am I agree with Anna too.  For some it seems like the holy grail and ultimate achievement and honestly I wish all of us the most meaningful success.

[MiaOhMya!]

That is a really good question.

I think given enough effort and time lots more MTFs reach stealth, or stealth-like, status than we think. We can meet stealth trans people and never know the difference.

Another thing is defining stealth. How do you draw that line? Passing without effort? Intentionally hiding?

I don't tell anyone I'm trans, no one asks or suspects. I would have to tell them myself. Is that stealth?

If it is then let me warn that stealth comes with its own slew of issues. Stealth does not = mental health or the resolution of trans-issues!

[Ms Grace]

I guess the thing about the concept and desire for stealth is that it exists primarily as a result of a number of factors; shame about being trans due to social attitudes and taboos, fear of discrimination or rejection or violence, a desire to completely separate oneself from one's previous gender especially is trauma was part of that picture, and so on. Maybe as those situations and issues change and people are accepting then the need for stealth will diminish?

[Jenna Marie]

I'm not sure there's any good way to answer this question, as a stealth person may not risk posting to a site like this!

I'll never be "truly" stealth because I transitioned in place, but it sounds like there's also two different questions bundled into one there : will you be outed by your documents/friends/history, and will you be outed by your appearance. I'm definitely vulnerable to the former, but as for the latter, I've had people *argue* with me (and other people) when told I'm trans. It's weird for me, because it means that even without making an effort to hide anything, and without necessarily *wanting* to be, I'm effectively stealth until something outs me or I tell someone. And I'm too shy to tell most people my life story. So more and more, I just blend in.

[Jill F]

I guess the thing about the concept and desire for stealth is that it exists primarily as a result of a number of factors; shame about being trans due to social attitudes and taboos, fear of discrimination or rejection or violence, a desire to completely separate oneself from one's previous gender especially is trauma was part of that picture, and so on. Maybe as those situations and issues change and people are accepting then the need for stealth will diminish?

The are certainly degrees of stealth.   I transitioned in place in Los Angeles.   I still go everywhere I went before and interact with a lot of the same people.   It's not exactly a secret that I used to be a Greg.   I knew hundreds of people before, and they all know.   I assume everyone that I ever knew at one time or another knows by now.  True stealth is not an option for me, nor a necessity.  The parts of LA that I frequent are not usually trans-unfriendly, and I feell pretty good about where I am.

That being said, I don't get read very often anymore.   Most people out there have no freakin' clue that I'm not cis.   My wife is also an amazon, so it's even better for me.  I think people just assume we're sisters.   This is the degree of stealth that I can enjoy.   As far as strangers go, I am normally presumed cis, and that's fine with me.  I don't exactly wear a neon sign that says "I'm a transsexual!"

Some places are a lot less progressive than Los Angeles, and if I lived in one of them, I might have considered a different approach.   The small towns in Ohio that my parents are from are places I probably shouldn't go now.  People know, people gossip, and out comes the angry mob with torches and pitchforks.  Most of them would probably even be my own distant and not-so-distant relatives.   I'm sure that even smalltown USA would be a walk in the park compared to a lot of countries in the world, where if you were found out, you'd be dead in a ditch in a heartbeat.  This is where true stealth becomes a matter of survival.

[Railgun]

Since i'm sure that i'm trans i started to look for masculine features or behaviour in women and were surprised how often i actually encountered it. And 95% time i didn't doubt that the person is a ciswomen, and that not out of politeness.
So i think that a good amount (50-60% - which is already my pessimistic view on that question) of us MtF can actually achieve stealth (getting identified as ciswomen by strangers) depending on amount of irreversible virilization that has happened before HRT (which can but doesn't have to correlate to the person's age). But reaching the state of being an absolutely georgeous or extremly cute looking or sounding women might be impossible for most. But i wouldn't consider that the requirement for "stealth".

Also i think there are actually a lot of stealth transwomen who don't consider themselves as stealth, because they're overly aware of remaining male features and thus still see a male in the mirror even if others don't.

However that is pretty normal for every kind of women. We are all overly aware of our self-declared flaws and are most of the time not satified with us. There are very few women who can really accept everything about themselves and don't start questioning everything again if some minority of people starts to make negative comments.

[ImagineKate]

I agree with Jill and if you include the spectrum I think the percentage of stealth is quite high.

Deep stealth as in completely woodworked is probably like 5-10%. Stealth to most people is probably around 25-30%. Stealth to strangers is probably like 60-70%. I used to think that late transitioners were stuck looking like men for life but after seeing a lot of you I don't think that is the case. You can get good results even if you start late, just need to work at it.

[stephaniec]

thanks for the great answers, great perspective

[missymay]

My definition of stealth is as you say "deep stealth and woodworked", meaning that you are 100% identical to a cis woman. And no one would look at you and think "hmm, there's something about her" and they focus in on you (not when you can see them, they would consider that rude), and start looking for what it is that's different, and bit by bit they put the puzzle together.  They probably will make their final decision in less than a minute ( so the longer you interact with them, means the more time they have to put it together) and anything masculine about you; looks, voice, deportment, etc. will lead them to the conclusion that you are trans.

[Megumi]

I'm technically somewhat "deep stealth" to the unsuspecting public even though I'm out at work to over 1,000 people, who ever they've told and those who know me online and that's just a rain drop in size compared to the overall population that I am a part of where I live. I don't match the typical female proportions as far as height and body size go as I'm a 5'11" tall amazon woman. I live in the DEEEEEEEP South and when I'm out in public all by myself nobody gives me any crap, I don't get misgendered from my looks or my voice, people do stare but I think that's just due to me being tall in the land of 5'2-5'6 women and the ones that I've come out to after knowing them for a while and feeling comfortable to tell them never suspected that I could be transgender even though personally I don't feel that way because I told myself that this was NEVER possible for years and years. Even a lot of my new cis friends have a very hard time ever seeing me as having lived as a male for 30 years as to them I'm a woman in every way possible through and through even though they do know that I am transgender. I think the number of transgender women who are fully 100% stealth is very very low, I'd have to say around 5-10% if that.

[Susan522]

How can one be "technically deep stealth" while at the same time, "out" to 1000+ people at work?  My head is about to expode!

[Megumi]

How can one be "technically deep stealth" while at the same time, "out" to 1000+ people at work?  My head is about to expode!

You'll notice I said to the unsuspecting public, hence the technically part. One can be completely out at work where lots of people know that you are transgender but that doesn't mean every person in the entire world knows that you are transgender so if I cross paths with some random stranger who doesn't know of my past then guess what I'm stealth because I'm not going to out myself for no reason. Those who are able to venture out in public all alone in a place that has zero protections for a transgender person whether it be day or night and not have issues then I'd say they qualify as being stealth to some varying degree. I have achieved that level of stealth as I don't walk around yelling that I'm transgender so as far as I know people are only seeing me as a tall woman because I don't get discriminated against, treated differently from other women, I can freely go to any women's public bathroom with zero fear what so ever, I recently went to a bath house that requires swimsuits and had no issues and I'm very much pre-op and can pull off wearing a swimsuit in public.... I can keep listing things off that most transgender women don't get the luxury of experiencing because something about them get's them clocked where as that just doesn't happen to me anymore when it use to when I was very early in my transition from late 2013 till April/May 2014. If I really wanted to I could find a new job in some other state and live in full stealth but I don't want to risk leaving my good paying job for something totally unknown when things are going just fine for me as is where I'm at.   

[Ms Grace]

I assume everyone that I ever knew at one time or another knows by now.  True stealth is not an option for me, nor a necessity...

That being said, I don't get read very often anymore.   Most people out there have no freakin' clue that I'm not cis.   

Ditto

[ImagineKate]

My definition of stealth is as you say "deep stealth and woodworked", meaning that you are 100% identical to a cis woman. And no one would look at you and think "hmm, there's something about her" and they focus in on you (not when you can see them, they would consider that rude), and start looking for what it is that's different, and bit by bit they put the puzzle together.  They probably will make their final decision in less than a minute ( so the longer you interact with them, means the more time they have to put it together) and anything masculine about you; looks, voice, deportment, etc. will lead them to the conclusion that you are trans.

Yep so the voice and facial hair is a top priority for me. Even if I look a little masculine, if I say, "excuse me?" in a feminine voice people will immediately retract and gender me F.

[herekitten]

The 'stealth' question- hmmm..  Seems there is no real definition but after reading some of the posts it would appear to be varying degrees of stealth? To me, stealth mode is just what it says - No noise, no visibility, no sense of what was before.

100% Stealth = Post-op and your husband or significant other does not know. Your children do not know. Your OBGYN or Family Dr.  do not know (other than surgeon and he passed also). No one knows except your parents (and they have passed on). Great majority of time, even you forget what once was. You might even be a famous lingerie model.

99% Stealth = Post-op but your surgeon is still alive. No one else knows. Parents passed.

98% Stealth = Post-op but your surgeon is still alive and your OBGYN knows. Parents know.

90% Stealth = Pre-op and husband or significant other knows. This particular percentage category could be given greater percentile dependent on the situation. No one else knows or has a clue. Great majority of time, even you forget you are pre-op.

Funny way of rating it by percentage - no?  I may take time and work on this little scale and give it more detail.

[Brenda E]

To me, stealth means having someone who doesn't know you think that you're female in any given casual interaction; for example, the grocery store clerk or bank teller who calls you ma'am because you pass as a female and not just because he's being polite.  For us older girls, there's too much of a paper trail, too much history, and too much testosterone-damage for us to truly chase the illusion of stealth.  I'll be happy when I look, to most people, like a girl, and I'll be happy when I'm treated as one at home, in the workplace, and in public.  Sure, I'll still be obviously trans, and most people will know that I used to be physically-male and there'll be a certain level of "wink wink yeah I know you used to be a guy but I'll play along because I'm not an ->-bleeped-<-", but hopefully I'll not be so obviously trans that it'll cause people to regularly misgender me accidentally.

Chasing the goal of being stealth also seems too time-consuming and expensive for me.  I personally don't have the time or the money to spend the next five years of my life having surgery after surgery after surgery, and emptying my life savings into the pockets of surgeons of all description.  I think that one can achieve 90% of the results with 10% of the money (therapy, HRT, a decent wardrobe and maybe SRS), and to get to that 100% stealth result takes the remaining 90% of the money (high-end FFS, voice surgery, hair transplants, extensive wardrobe, uprooting oneself to another part of the country and cutting all ties with the past etc.)  Not a good investment for me, but I'm fully supportive and understanding of those whose priorities are different.

Besides, I think trans girls are some of the most beautiful people on the planet.  I'm so proud to be one.

[PinkCloud]

ive been thinking about this a lot lately and I think the number of mtf who can actually achieve the level of passability needed to be truly and completely stealth is very low.. at least for those who started after puberty and haven't spent thousands on ffs and other surgeries. Its my belief that a lot of people think there stealth when the reality is people just aren't bringing it up cause there being polite...let me make one thing very clear though and that is theres a big difference to passing in the streets or in quick day to day interactions with strangers and passing in all situations one hundred percent... I definitely believe its possible to be stealth and some mtf definitely have achieved it... but if you started hormones older than your teens and you've had no surgeries I just don't think its possible for most...

Have to disagree by real life example.

A MTF friend of mine transitioned when she was 16, hormones at 18 surgery at 20. She thinks she passes, and she does to some extend. Until I heard that she does get clocked from time to time, but doesn't know it herself. Should we tell her? or leave her ignorant? Another MTF friend transitioned at the age of 47. No one ever clocked her to my knowledge. I can sit face to face with her, and it never occurs to me that she's even trans. So what is the difference? ...YMMV. Have a few more examples, but these aren't practical to describe. I think 100% passable all of the time, is impossible. No matter the age factor. One day, someone will know or find out. Whether voluntary by saying it yourself, or involuntary. In fact, hundreds of people already know: doctors, police, courts, lawyers, government personnel etc... etc...  never mind the rumor mill



I think everyone can pass, unless there are so many factors that disturbs it. I guess 70-80% will pass most of the time. Maybe a good 50% go stealth successfully.