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Life, touching and transition...

Started by Teri Anne, December 18, 2005, 04:48:20 PM

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Teri Anne

First of all, I want to commend this site and all of you who visit and inhabit it.  In the 90's, I used to visit an internet chat called "Gazebo" and, for me, it was an eye opener...There were people like me out there!  The Gazebo is gone now.  Today, there are other TS sites out there but I find the caliber and depth of discussions to be here in Susan's Place to be far better.  In some other sites, a deep conversation consists of three word sentences bantered back and forth, such as, "How R U?," "Fine, U?"  Even though such sites are labelled transsexual, the banter is often or usually about totally other topics.  It's not that they don't have a right to discuss things with their friends online...it's just not what I came there for.

My life?  Like everyone's here, I suppose, it's been a struggle.  I was jealous, as a kid, when one of my friends was able to wear his sisters clothes OUTSIDE...it was Halloween and thus allowed.  He had no TS desires.  He did it as a lark.  Nevertheless, I was jealous.  I remember sneaking a few fimes into my mother's closet and staring in wonder at her clothing.  Sometimes, I'd try on a jacket or dress, but always I'd check before EXACTLY how it sat on the clothes rack so I could put it back in exactly the same way.  From these beginnings, I have changed a lot, as you will soon see...

In my mid-forties, like many TS's of my generation, I decided that I had to transition...maybe it's our own form of mid-life crisis...getting what we always really wanted.  I attended a few transgender meetings at the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center.  I'd been there before...ten years before, in fact.  But I'd decided then that I would try to control it, forget about it.  But the feeling that I was in the wrong body always came back.  And so here I found myself, back in TG meetings and starting over, for the hundredth time.  In a book store, I found a book about transgenders and, in the index in back, was a recommended site, the Gazebo.  In going there, I found feelings that had resonated in me for years.  My girlfriend, who I had lived with for fifteen years, chided that thought, "You can find esoteric groups of all possibilities on the internet.  That doesn't validate it as not being crazy."  Nevertheless, I knew that there were good groups of people that had found themselves on the internet...people who had, up to then, suffered alone with trauma.  A "Dateline" reported how a baby was born with "questionable genitals."  The surgeon got rid of the male part of the genitals and the parents were instructed to raise the child as a male.  It didn't, as many of you probably have guessed, work.  The person raised as a female rebelled in his teens and parents admitted what they had done.  He stopped wearing dresses and became what he knew what he was inside, a man.  This story hit home with me.  It was terribly difficult, though.  To say I was "a woman inside" was the stuff comedians use daily in their jabs.  And, I knew from having lived on the male side, that some might presume that I was doing it in order to get the outer accoutremant of females, the clothes, the makeup.  I resolved to shirk overtly feminine things in order to show society that there were some TS's that didn't fit so neatly into their stereotypes.  Perhaps it's silly.  I should behave as I want.  But I guess I was always a rebel in some way or other and this was my way of rebelling against how society thinks of womens' things in sexual terms...panties, nylons, bras, dresses, cosmetics...to society, these THINGS say feminine.  I knew my spirit inside was female and did these outer things to prove that.  I have gotten into some trouble in Susan's Place for saying things like that.  Some presume I am saying that I object if other TS's say they like feminine clothes.  Let me assure you, I am not judgemental of others, especially other TS's.  The point of the introduction, I presume, is to bare my thoughts -- what was going on in my mind.  If we cannot speak openly here about our inner thoughts, than where?  If society damns me for saying "I'm a female inside," because they presume it's because I want to wear dresses, than is it so odd that I would rebel against that stereotype and want to tilt their windmill?  Additionally, it's also a factor of age.  I was in my late forties when I transitioned, and I knew that, after years of male hormones travelling through my body and changing it physically, I would look silly if I dressed in an overtly feminine fashion.  I'd seen a CD with a beard wearing a light chifon dress and I feared looking like some variant of that.  I mean this as no insult to drag queens.  They have just as much a right to be on this earth as me.  I just didn't want to be thought of as one...I wanted to blend in.  Older women generally wear less sexually overt clothing and my goal was to fit in, above all else.  I knew that women at work wore pants and that I would stick out like a sore thumb if I walked in, wearing a dress.

Luckily for me, I found a therapist who understood and even agreed with my reasonings.  Transitioning was hard but, and maybe this is human nature, not as hard as I would have thought.  I was always goal oriented throughout my life and I took this on as something I knew I'd have to do if my life was to make any sense.  Telling my mom, family and coworkers was hard but I felt compelled to do it....I feared my girlfriend might tell them first.  Looking back, I realize she never would have because she loved me.  But we were going through some tough times.  We'd have one day where she'd be supportive...we'd sit and watch a newsmagazine that showed TS's.  I'd feel happy, only to find out, on waking the next morning, her telling me that "the more I think about it, I think this whole idea of transsexualism is like a lifelong mental illness."  I'd show her medical studies regarding babies it the womb.  It was thought that since the body forms at one point and then the brain much later that, if there was was a hormone difference in the mother during pregnancy, that you could end up with the brain one way and the body another.  It made sense to me.  To her, on her worst days, it was just another obssession "like pedaphelia.  It'll never go away."  Eventually, she did.  It was hard -- even harder than transition for me -- to break up with her.  Despite her mixed feelings about transsexualism, we had loved each other and spent 20 years sharing a life together.  I'd tried many times breaking up with her but she'd start crying and I'd do anything -- anything -- to make the tears stop.  I even, at one point, said "I'll be your man."  I still shake my head when I think back to that...that I could say that.  We didn't have much of a sexual life but we still loved one another.  I guess love makes you say things that'll stop your loved one from hurting.  The only problem was that it didn't get rid of my hurt, my belief that I was, as a man, living a lie.  We split up.

In "coming out" I found something remarkable at work:  a happily married woman who I jokingly refer to as my "womantor" (takeoff on "mentor").  Though we were just coworkers before my transition, she took me under her wing and she helped me through many stages of transition. She'd had a lifetime of female experience and I was a definite newbie.  There was nothing sexual between us but a love grew so that I regarded her like a big sister or mother even though she was only a few years older than me.  One thing I learned, quite accidentally, was the feeling of touch.  I had grown up with parents and family who never touched or kissed or said, "I love you" aloud.  My friend would sometimes touch my hand as I told emotional parts of my life.  At first, I pulled away.  I remember, at Christmas get-togethers at work, she would always hug everyone.  I, again, would always pull away.  As I began being more comfortable with her touch I found a feeling of peace there.  Again, it was nothing sexual...by now, the hormones and androgens had knocked off any sexual desire.  I read in medical books and found that a hormone, oxytocin, is given off whenever people touch.  It is especially strong when a mother holds her baby.  Medically, doctors know that this hormone gives people a sense of two things:  peace and happiness.  I had always coveted touch when growing up but felt anxious when it happened.  I would look longingly to couples hugging in theater lines.  But it wasn't for me.  I wasn't nurtured that way.  Until I met my friend.  Now, when I date, I am not so shy as to not touch.  Being at peace with touch is one of the unexpectected good side effects of my transition.

When all the doctor papers were approved, I flew to Montreal, Canada in May of 1999 and had, for all intents and purposes, a new birthday.  Menard's clinic was wonderful in that it was like visiting a family of TS friends in a nice big warm house.  Here were M2F's and F2M's, all of us beginning a new voyage.  It, again, was reassuring to me to encounter F2M's for they, in my mind, validated my process.  Society would think that M2F's transition in order to wear the outer garments and makeup of being feminine.  But here the F2M's were, showing that they shirked all that outer stuff to be what they felt they were, men.  I can somewhat understand society's confusion with TS's.  They see drag queens getting dressed to push society's buttons and presume we're all the same.  I don't fault anyone for doing what they want but I do, as you may gather, resist society's generalization that we do this for anything as frivolous as having the ability to wear women's clothing.  It's more important than that.

I was happy when I awoke the next day.  My roomate and I had just had the operation the day before and we were awaking to our new life.  Now, we could disappear into womanhood and leave the angst of gender problems behind us.  I misjudged how, even now, I still feel angst at any kind of discrimination.  I think back and wonder at how Amos and Andy were tolerated as being funny, even though they were an insult to many blacks.  For me, guy in dress jokes are what upset me.  It seems that whenever a comedian is stuck on trying to think up something funny, the guy in dress jokes get pulled out because they're "sure fire jokes."  They'll always get a laugh.  I sometimes wish that someone would form an anti-defamation league for TS's so that media could become more sensitive that this humor is painful to people like me.  I realize I need to develop a thicker skin but I think, if Amos and Andy-type jokes can be stopped, why not guy in a dress jokes? Other days I feel less critical...I sometimes even laugh with them.   I like that Jackie Gleason, when he was urged to put on a dress for comedy, thought it was stupid.

Contrarily, I saw a teenage boy the other day, sitting with a girl in a nearby restaurant booth.  He had eye liner and, I have to admit, he looked wonderful.  Perhaps, in the future, as his generation bends the rules, the world will get a little more free.  And people will see TS's as just one of life's many wonderful variations, worthy of compassion, praise for bravery, and worthy of acceptance and respect.  In scuba diving, I see so many variations of fish...in rainbows of colors.  I'm not a beautiful fish but I "pass" quite well as an average woman...and that was my bottom line.

Please as you read the above, note what I said in the beginning.  These are just my inner thoughts.  I apologize if anything I said upset anyone...That is not the intent.  I do not mean to annoy or insult anyone...Like me, I'm sure you've all been through a lot of angst.  We don't need angry thoughts here in our place.  By being open about our thoughts, maybe we can all grow to learn the variances of being transsexual.  And I, too, am still learning...
     
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Terri-Gene

Teri Anne, have no fear for your thoughts.  All that was occurring about you mentioning how older women T's are so prone to fancy makeup and wigs etc and saying they needed to mellow out was a simple unfamiliarity with some of the people on this site who would see such statements as an offense to thier own beliefs and actions.

Your statements about yourself were most pointedly beautiful and you can be sure that will be seen by all of the members of this site.  Many have felt the same as you discribed your own feelings and will be able to relate to all you said.

Please keep in mind also that none of the people who commented on the makeup remarks hold anything against you or your words, It was a simple feeling of being slighted for as I said, things they themselves put no stock in or would want to do.

Here at Susans we are used to speaking our deepest thoughts and desires and yes, sometimes we do jingle each others chains a little, but we always try not to be offensive with it, just discuss the issue for better or worse and many times people have totally different and contrasting opinions which are so far apart as to never be able to find a middle ground other then simple respect that in and of the fact that different people think in different ways, much of the time because of having had different experience.

Don't let it bother you Teri Anne, you speak and write well and as you come to understand some of the boards memebers you will know better how to relate with them whatever your opinion.  Keep writing your thoughts, you are a wonderful thinker.

Terri
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Leah

Hello Teri,
Welcome to a very unique site.

First off: There is no apology to me needed for your feelings. Your feeling are yours and you have every right to feel what ever it is you feel nobody should every judge them. IN my opinion honesty is desirable.

In your intro you mentioned personal contact in touching. Life long for me I've been uncomfortable with a hug, even a handshake is even an effort. Even now I can't comfortably hug my own mother. I didn't hug the son's my significant other share with me either. And now they are grown men and shake hands in greeting and paring. To shake hand and a hug is tolerated if they initiate it. I do hug and hold my wife. She's different. I enjoy reaching our and pet her hair or hold her hand when watching TV or when she's driving in the car.

I too grew up with out contact being part of ones display of emotions and affection. I have wondered if that had any influence on my desire to be female. See they are aloud and it is accepted when they do. My Dad caught me in my sister's dress when I was 5 or 6 years old. After that I was strongly guided away from anything feminine...big boys don't cry.

I don't believe God put me in the wrong body. I can't explain why I feel the way I do. I'm not sure there is a God. At least not one that cares how or what I'm doing. I spent most of my growing up years going to church and praying for God to change my body to female. Being taught all things are possible through God...have faith and believe...and God answers prayer. That's not been my Godly experience...He doesn't answer prayers, not even with a lightning bolt striking me dead to end it all...all things are not possible I'm still where I don't want to be I a man's body... I'm completely out of Faith and believing.

If realizing life is getting away and I'd better do something now or it would be too late, is call it a "midlife crisis" then I guess but I didn't see as such.

Yes I am very jealous of women/envious and not necessarily their cloths. I can be female in apparel I choose to put on.

Not interested in having others see me as weird...not wanting to be seen as wow let me take her to bed...I just wont to be anonymous, being female is just for me not for anyone else.

My wife is trying to understand and asks me lots of questions. She is still apprehensive of post op feelings. Not sure about a body with large breast to be next to. I thought about going to Canada for surgery... but looks like my wife I and will be taking our money to Thailand instead because of the pre-required hoops to jump through. The Dr.'s are little more flexible in Thailand.

I agree with the wonderful invention of the Internet, if I had had this informational source when I was 12 or 13, my life would have taken a different path a long time ago. I have been to other sites on my way to finding Susan's Place. I agree with you they are stupid and have dull dialog meeting only pabulum level.

Later
Leah



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Teri Anne

Terri, thank you for your kind, helpful and complimentary thoughts.  Just one thing though -- I don't think I said that older TS's like overt makeup and feminine dress.  If I intimatd anything like that, it is certainly not what I meant.  It's my own phobia that's responsible...wanting the world to know that TS's in general, no matter what the age, are not tranistioning to wear clothes.  I realize that TS's, like genetic women, like clothes and makeup but I probably overcompensate in the other direction in order to fight that stereotype.  It's like a black man saying he doesn't like watermellon or chicken...or an Italian telling others that he's not in the mafia...or a French person being especially polite because the world expects something different.  We all combat stereotypes in our own way.  Mine's a silly way and I know, someday, I'll get over it...after all, I'm only six in post-op years!

Leah, thank you for telling me of your struggle to touch and hug.  I have some memories about touching I'd like to share.  One was a story in a woman's magazine about a daughter who grew up hugging and touching her mom.  When she was in her teen years, the hugging stopped because, in her mind, it wasn't "cool."  Later on, in her twenties, she got together with her mom and she grew again liking to touch.  She touched her mom's hand as they talked and suddenly what would have been a dull conversation about nothing in particular became memorable and emotionally important.  I told my mom that story in her 90's and began hugging her as she went to bed.  One night, I didn't hug her and she stood at the doorway demanding, "Don't I get a hug?"  It was amazing.  Here was a woman who, all her life had said that people in town hugged too much...here was she, asking for a hug.  Yes, we all can change, at any age.

The other memory is of a family at a restaurant.  I looked at the family and was amazed...the father was rubbing the back of the son as they all talked.   The son was in his teens and he didn't pull away.  I thought, at the time, this boy is not going to grow up not touching like I did.  He will be able to relate with friends and family far better than I did.

Regarding what you said of how lack of touch may have resulted in some envy of women.  I would have to say that touching is my greatest joy since transition.  Unfortunately, society drills into a lot of males that they shouldn't touch.  Psych books talk of how the hugs stop in puberty in an effort to make the male strong and independent.  I sometimes touch people I hardly know and, because I'm not a man, there is no presumed sexual overtone to it.  And there isn't any sexual intention.  I am just touching them as we talk and, like some form of magic, it makes us feel closer.  Frankly, now I've transitioned, I feel sorry for how men are kept in such emotional boxes, never being allowed to cry or touch or hug.  My range of possible emotions has quadrupeled as a woman...I feel so much more alive.  I am rarely critical of men because I know what a tight box they are put in to live.  It's just one of many good things I experience as a woman.

Another is being noticed.  Though I dress in an average female way, guards notice me when I come to work in the morning.  We have friendly banter.  When I went to work as a man, it was like I was invisible.  It's truly strange.  I'm the same person, and I'm noticed.  I've heard from some F2M's that they have exactly the opposite...that they aren't noticed as much.  Maybe if there were more female guards, things would be different?  Anyway, I enjoy feeling like I am of this earth.  That I'm finally alive.
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Dennis

Teri, I have noticed that visibility thing too. I blend in much more now than I used to (for me, that's a positive). With respect to the touching, I notice much less of it. Friends who, before, used to hug me goodbye now offer a handshake. With good friends, I tend to fling myself past the outstretched hand and go for the hug. I'm not sure if people are just trying to respect the transition by doing the handshake thing or if it really is different for them.

Although the amount of physical contact with women used to make me uncomfortable (as did the amount of hugging), it's taking some time to get used to this situation.

Dennis
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Teri Anne

Dennis, thank you for sharing your experiences with hugging versus handshakes.  I'd heard from some F2M's that they noticed the way society treated them was different after transition...that instead of hugs, they got handshakes...that instead of men and women looking at them (as female) when they enter a room, now they feel somewhat invisible.  It's all very interesting and, to me, just more examples of how society interacts with each gender differently...that each gender is nurtured (nature vs. nurture) in different ways.  My feeling is that this, in part, explains why some post ops come to the conclusion that a lot of the supposid differences in gender are created after birth.   This isn't to say that there aren't "natural" differences between the genders.  Different sides of the brain (right vs. left) are active differently in many men vs. women.  And, as we all know, hormones can have a big effect on the genders.

Melissa, I agree with you that society seems to feel that men should shake hands and women can hug.  'Course don't tell that to many european men who like to hug and don't have our homophobic angst over two men hugging.
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Sarah Louise

I never learned to hug, it was "improper" according to my mother.  So was shaking hands in most cases, the most we ever did was "nod" our head at the other person as an ackowledgement (spelling) to others.  Even today I dislike touching other people.  In church when the men insist on shaking my hand, I have to wipe the hand afterwards.  I can accept hugging from other women a little easier.

Sarah L.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Sarah Louise

Nodding is very common with people of German background.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Teri Anne

When I'd leave my parent's house to go back to college, I received neither a nod, handshake, hug, kiss or an "I love you."  It was friendly (mom:  "we're so happy that you were able to come down for a visit").  I always presumed that it was a generational thing and yet, here I was in the 70's, acting just like them.  When my father died, we never saw tears from my mom...she never showed emotions openly and we always wondered if she was more emotional when she was by herself.  One relative once wondered aloud how my parents could have ended up with four kids...at some point, there had to be emotions and touching and hugging, didn't there?  I was told that my mom's parents were Germanic so maybe it wasn't just a generatonal thing.

My ex was much like my parents.  I knew she loved me but it was more in a cerebral way or the concern she'd show in her voice rather than via touch or a warm stare.  When I began touching and hugging and finding I enjoyed it and the peaceful happiness it gave me, I hoped my not-quite-ex would see the happiness potential that it can give.  But she didn't change, at least for me.  I notice her new hubby and her touch from time to tiime now and, for that, I'm glad for her.  I want her to be happy.

Contrary to all of the above, I sometimes wonder if my mom's stoicism helped her to live a long life.  She died recently at 92.  If you don't get upset and emotional over things, do you live longer?  There are probably some very emotional people - like me - that live long lives.  For me, the touching is like the saying about fishing...that every hour you spend fishing, you can add that hour to the length of your life.
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Northern Jane

My adoptive Mom was non-physical, non-demonstrative, non-everything!

When I left home, I made it a point to be the opposite. The only time I shake hands is in a business environment with people I do not know well - everybody else gets hugged! I also make it a point to be free to touch (when it's appropriate) and ALWAYS use a person's given name at every opportunity.

Why not go a little out of your way to make others feel good!!
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Lisabeth

Hi Terri Anne,

I enjoyed your post, and even though I'm a CD plus where  for most, clothes and make-up are a big part of feeling female, I have learned from the girls here that you don't necessarily need them to feel like a woman.  I've done a lot of thinking lately about my past.  My childhood especially, and when I think about elementary school I realize most my friends were girls.  I definitely identified more with the female gender as a child.  I had forgotten many childhood memories until I came here and gave a lot of thought about when my desires first started.  Now I am rembering, and my feelings  are starting to make some sense. I am not sure where this will take me but I feel like I am moving down a path with the girls here, rather than going in circles.  I still have a hard time hugging my mom and dad as well.  There has not been much physical contact between us throughout my life.  I do enjoy touching though, and am very sensitive to the warmth that's created between two people who touch.  Anyway welcome to the forum, keep posting.  I enjoy your style.

Lisabeth
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Teri Anne

Lisabeth, you wrote: "I have learned from the girls here that you don't necessarily need them to feel like a woman."

I'm not sure where or when anyone got that idea.  I don't "necessarily need them to feel" in any particular manner.  It is none of my business.  Again, when I speak of my own feelings and inner thoughts, I am not saying that they are anyone's thoughts but mine.  The women here can and should certainly feel like women, dress like women, and do whatever they want.  Nothing I say should be construed as an appeal for anyone to think or act in any manner.  As the saying goes, "my rights stop where your nose begins."  I am simply DOCUMENTING my thoughts.  In many ways (not all), I'm a Libertarian who believes that everyone should think and act for themselves.  No government, company, website or people who inhabit a website should preach that there is only one way to do anything.  In transitioning, I've become more of a Democrat, seeing that the only way to protect minorities from mob rule is for a government to step in and offer those protections...saying, for example, that Rosa Parks deserves a place on that bus.

Do I feel like a woman?  Yes.  Do I dress as a woman?  Yes.  Do I feel as a woman?  Yes.  Are there times when I feel like I'm neither a man or a woman?  Yes.  Do some genetic women sometimes feel like they are neither man or woman?  According to my GG friend, yes.  Would I go back and not have my GRS surgery?  No.  Am I different from other TS's?  Sometimes yes, sometimes no. 

Man or woman, all who inhabit this room are all breathing out and breathing in and choosing our own paths to walk.  Those paths, described here in detail by thousands of "posts" by hundreds of TG's are truly exciting.  Every now and then I have to pinch myself.  You all are like a colorful parade of tropical fish. And I'm honored to simply swim along...
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Valerie

Wow, I just discovered this thread, and Teri-Anne, I am impressed with how you express yourself & how open you are with your ideas and feelings.  By the way, the photo is lovely--you have a terrific smile!  :) 

The whole 'touching' thing can be mysterious at times, I think.  I was touched and held very seldom as a child, but rather than grow to not enjoy touch, it turns out I crave it like a drug.  I feel as though I'm still a little kid in my affections, and often it pains me as I feel I must keep my affections in check much of the time.  I do have people who don't care how much I hug them, kiss them, or hang all over them, so that is consolation.  And it's not like I have the desire to embrace everyone I meet, either, far from it. 

Where men are concerned, I tend to be more restrictive of physical affection for 2 reasons...if the guy has an SO, I do not want it to be mistakenly implied that I am making a pass at someone's husband/boyfriend.  Also, it seems hard to get it through guys' heads that 'I'm giving you a hug' does NOT mean, "I want to date you/I want to sleep with you".  I had a hard time even talking to one guy at work because he's so needy and thought any girl who was nice to him wanted him.  I finally was able to get it through his head when we were discussing differences between men and women and I told him, "I can hug and kiss and hang all over my lesbian friends without them thinking I'm coming on to them, but I can't even talk to a guy without him thinking I want a date."...uh, yeah...he got the message....

Goodness, have I digressed?  Oh, yeah...anyway, I was kind of surprised, Dennis, when you said people's affections for you changed when you transitioned... I mean if they know you they know you.....I know for me that would not have been an issue....maybe it really is the percieved social propriety thing? 

In any event, all of you get hugz from me  :)   *sigh* sorry for rambling, wish I could learn to just get to the point....

Valerie
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Terri-Gene

 
QuoteI was kind of surprised, Dennis, when you said people's affections for you changed when you transitioned... I mean if they know you they know you

Dennis's statement is not so hard to understand from a transitional persons point of view Valerie.

Yes, people can know you, right down to the point you will go to live or die, but which gender you are affects what they expect of your reactions to a variety of things.  I can tell you that people who have been with me and depended on me under any conditons seemed to doubt what my reactions would be once they were aware I wasn't totally what they had always known and experienced of me.  Most men really do doubt the conviction and dependability of women in particular situations.  For me, it got almost to the point where there never would have been the slightest doubt or question when I was presumed male, but serious uncertainty  once they realized I wasn't as they had always believed.  It made it hard if not impossible to work with them anymore as they did not trust me the same as before.

A lot of this is like not telling a wife about yourself in the beginning I guess.  They feel lied to and betrayed by your past actions and really don't know what to expect from you in the future, or if your values have changed in ways that won't safely work out for them, thier concerns and their safety.

It's just another of those things a transitional person has to go through in rebuilding and confirming a new life and it takes time for others to adjust to the differences that they can see and feel about you.

Terri

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Dennis

I think, Valerie, that it is people trying to go out of their way to react to me as a man. They might think I'd be offended if they reacted to me like they always did. That's kind of why I fling myself past the handshake and go for a hug. I wouldn't do it if I felt I was impinging on people's personal space.

My straight male friends who are the most comfortable with themselves and have always been huggers are the exception to that. They continue to hug and sometimes cheek kiss, which they'll do with other men too. It's mostly women who don't know how to react to me. And some gay men.

I must say, I don't miss the relentless, regardless of relationship, hugging that goes on in the lesbian community, but I do miss physical contact sometimes. It just would be nice to sit on the couch, watching a movie and lean on another person or have someone's head on my shoulder. Or just put my arm around a friend as I walked without having to worry that I was going to be ->-bleeped-<--bashed.

Dennis
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Valerie

QuoteDennis's statement is not so hard to understand from a transitional persons point of view Valerie.
Thanks, Terri...it was not, however, that I didn't believe or understand what Dennis was saying, but that the reaction of people who knew him previously surprised me.

QuoteI think, Valerie, that it is people trying to go out of their way to react to me as a man.
There now, Dennis, that explanation lit my lantern...  :)  At least it does not seem to be a personal thing--they don't seem to be avoiding the embrace out of revulsion or anything...if I'm understanding you correctly. 

All I know is, if my favorite lesbian told me one day she had to transition, my affections for her would remain the same in attitude and expression as they are now. 

QuoteIt just would be nice to sit on the couch, watching a movie and lean on another person or have someone's head on my shoulder. Or just put my arm around a friend as I walked without having to worry that I was going to be ->-bleeped-<--bashed.
*sigh* :( Yeah, I definitley feel for you there.... since I live in a mostly straight world, if I let my affections carry too far, people start freaking out thinking that I want something other than just someone to lean on and show tenderness towards....  Harder for you, I'd say, since you had to restrict something that once was so natural for you...

Valerie


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Teri Anne

Dennis, you wrote, " I don't miss the relentless, regardless of relationship, hugging that goes on in the lesbian community, but I do miss physical contact sometimes. It just would be nice to sit on the couch, watching a movie and lean on another person or have someone's head on my shoulder."

That is what I have with my (married) best friend now.  I treasure that her husband doesn't consider me competition but rather just a good friend.

You mention lesbians hugging.  The other side of it is lesbians' paranoia about hugging in public.  I had grown up in the hetero world and did not think twice when I saw women walk hand in hand, or hug.  I presumed that that is what women are allowed to do.  When I started dating women as a woman, I found that many were fearful.  One time, in a restaurant, I was sitting a little close to the woman I was dating, and she said, "Careful.  Those two women are watching us."  I said, "Oh, come on, that's silly.  How do they know we're not sisters or hetero women who are friends?"  Then I heard one of the women mutter the words, "damn lesbians," and I knew.  Here, I'd travelled the genders and found a place that I thought was accepting of two women hugging or leaning on one another.  Instead, the lifelong lesbian introduced me to the facts of bigotry they faced.  Life can be complicated.

Teri Anne
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Leigh

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 28, 2005, 06:27:32 PM



  The other side of it is lesbians' paranoia about hugging in public. 

Things must be different where you live or we are different here.


Almost everyone of my friends cars are adorned by Gay Pride decals of some sort.  Rainbow colored jewlery and typical dyke appearence brand us without the necessity of sitting side by side or holding hands, which we do without a second thought.

I am out with a capitol OUTand for me, I would find it difficult if not impossible to date someone that a PDA bothered. 

QuoteInstead, the lifelong lesbian introduced me to the facts of bigotry they faced. Life can be complicated
.

Isn't it nice to have such a warm reception into the real world of discrimination and bigotry.

Leigh



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jamesBrine

hello!
   I have very much enjoyed the variaring views on this subject, but even more so on that of touching. I would like to give a brief story about touching in my life.
  It all started last summer while attending a church in small town saskatchewan. When i got there i was quickly informed that the church i was attending was very much a hugging church. (i was never much into hugging, i believed in a good solid handshake) During the summer i didnt recieve much hugs at first, yet on the upside i did gain alot of good handshakes. As watching, males would hug males, females hug females, and males hug females. I came to realzie the only resean i would gain a handshake was my hand always go for the handshake motion rather then a hugging motion. As the later half of the summer progressed on, I would be very counsious of my body language when greeting people. As I started to open my arms up more i did recieve much more hugs. (to which they felt great) to this day i still struggle with going for the handshake first but i'm slowly learning.
   Not going to the female side, i dont really know if it natural easier to gain a hug when greeting. It has been a terrific struggle for me to give out hugs rather then handshakes. I would suggest through my own experiences that males or females  generally do want to give/recieve hugs its just about making yourself presentable. This has been true in my life and I do not want to presume this truth for all. It has been wonderful gaining understanding on how touch has changed from people who have switched over the opposite gender, and how location has affected touch.
  James
     
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