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So my mom put this on my facebook today...

Started by Kyra553, December 28, 2014, 12:31:08 PM

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Kyra553

My mom sent this to me today and I'm not sure about how I should respond back. She is very Christian and I thought we were finally healing wounds from me informing her I was trans over a year ago



There are ten passages in the Bible that directly or indirectly refer to homosexuality. Homosexual behavior is viewed negatively every time it is mentioned, yet some in the Church today are saying that "loving committed" homosexual relationships are approved by God. A question I have repeatedly heard is "How do liberal pastors, seminary professors and bishops get around the clear teaching of Scripture on homosexuality?" I will answer that as we look at the Biblical passages on homosexuality.

Genesis 2:18, 22. In this passage, God creates a woman to complement the man. God makes a woman, not another man, to fulfill Adam's need for companionship.

Genesis 19:1-9. The Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their sexual sin, which involved homosexual rape. Liberals in the Church teach that this passage does not condemn homosexuality per se but homosexual rape. They would teach the real sin of Sodom was "inhospitality." Actually, both are true. Homosexual rape is inhospitable. That this passage also condemns homosexual behavior in itself and not just rape is shown by the fact that Lot offers his daughters rather than see his guests raped. The Bible never says that God approved of Lot's offer, but it shows how taboo homosexual behavior was to this follower of Jehovah.

Leviticus 18:22 condemns sex between two men. Liberals point out that Leviticus also condemns the eating of pork and the wearing of a garment woven with two kinds of material. We no longer follow these rules, they contend, therefore we can ignore this passage about homosexuality. Not so. Jesus by His death fulfilled the sacrificial and ceremonial laws of the Old Testament. We are free to eat pork and not follow those Old Testament laws which were given specifically to the Jews to distinguish them from the nations (Mark 7:18). The moral law of the Old Testament, however, still stands. Leviticus chapter 18 also condemns incest (verse 9), adultery (verse 20), child sacrifice (verse 21) and bestiality (verse 23), yet no one is—or should—maintain that these laws are no longer applicable because they appear in the Book of Leviticus.

Leviticus 20:13 teaches that homosexual acts are "detestable" and should be punished by death. Liberals say "If you are going to be consistent, do you really want to kill homosexuals today?" Our response: Israel was a theocracy, not a democracy. We are never instructed in the Bible to impose Old Testament theocratic punishments on other forms of government. But the Apostle Paul does state in Romans 13 that all governments, even pagan governments, make laws to curb human sin. Whatever the form of government, the Bible's point still stands: homosexual behavior is grievous to God.

Deuteronomy 23:17-18 warns against prostitution, including homosexual prostitution. They are "abominations to the Lord".

Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

Romans 1:26-27. This is the clearest teaching in the Bible against homosexual behavior of any kind. Homosexual behavior is the consequence of mankind's idolatry. Homosexual desires are called "degrading passions" and are said to be "against nature." Liberals argue that this passage does not condemn "loving, committed" homosexual behavior, but only condemns child abuse, homosexual prostitution and promiscuity. But this is impossible to maintain since the passage is a blanket condemnation with no qualifiers. There is no hint here that that which is against nature becomes natural if the two people are in a committed relationship.

I Corinthians 6:9-11. This passage teaches that people who continue in impenitent sin—including but not limited to homosexuality—will not inherit God's Kingdom. Two words for homosexuality are used here, one meaning "soft, effeminate, the passive partner in homosexual relations" and the other being "male bed", meaning, a male who has sex with a male. The passage teaches that some at Corinth had been involved in this behavior but had been washed through the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit. When liberals in the Church teach that one can inherit the Kingdom of God while continuing in this behavior they are being very cruel. Whether they realize it or not, according to this passage, they are encouraging people to go to hell.

I Timothy 1:8-10 contains a list of gross sins, including murder, fornication, kidnapping, lying, and more. Included in that list is homosexual behavior. All these behaviors are referred to as "contrary to sound teaching."

Jude 6-7 (see also 2 Peter 2:6-10) teaches that the sin of Sodom was "gross immorality and they went after strange flesh." Sodom is an example of God's punishment of "eternal fire." Liberals try to maintain that Sodom's sin here is, again, inhospitality. But the words "gross immorality" and "going after strange flesh" are clearly a reference to the sexual sins of Sodom.

Thus the Bible teaches that sexual intercourse is for a man and woman within the commitment of marriage. Any other form of sexual intercourse, be it heterosexual fornication or homosexual behavior, is forbidden by the Bible. The Good News is that through Christ's saving death, there is forgiveness of sins for all who repent and put their faith in Christ (I Corinthians 6:9-11). The Christian Gospel holds out forgiveness and new life to those who have been involved in any kind of sinful, sexual behavior. For those with same sex attraction, God may indeed grant them healing and reorienting toward heterosexual marriage. Some Christians, however, may struggle with same sex attraction throughout their lives. Regardless of one's situation, all single Christians are called to live chaste lives for the glory of God and for their own well being.

Let us pray that the Lord of the Church will enable His Church to maintain the truth of the Bible in our confused age.

Thoughts anyone?
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stephaniec

seems to me the Romans passage has more to do with the difference between love and indiscriminant sex
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King Malachite

I would be much easier for me to gather my thoughts on what she wrote if I knew what the definition of "repentance" means to her, where she stood on the doctrine of eternal security, what denomination she belongs to, and the Bible she uses.  That could help clarify a lot, by just looking at what she wrote only, she does make a lot of great points, and I agree with her on some of them.  As Dr. Michael Brown (anti-gay activist) puts it, "God calls us to holiness, not to heterosexuality," and I agree, and I am glad that your mother sees that there are some gay people that do struggle with same-sex attractions all of their lives.  As far as this concerning YOU personally, unless you are a lesbian woman/attracted to women, I believe her arguments against being transgender are weak.  She (and many others) are making so much more out of Deuteronomy 22:5 that what is really there.  Yes, it speaks against cross-dressing, but that is it.  GRS wasn't even invented back then so to use that passage to condemn transgender people who get GRS is very problematic.  Personally, I believe the Bible, if taken literally, may be more in favor for transgender individuals.
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"Sometimes you have to go through outer hell to get to inner heaven."

"Anomalies can make the best revolutionaries."
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Leyn

honestly not sure how id feel if i found that on my fb page,

im sure that if someone wanted they can find a passage that makes just about anything a sin

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stephaniec

for me personal the bible has great significance in building a mutual contract between God and humans. The main focus and ultimate realization of the bible is the birth of God's loving son and his gift of love he brought into the world. He came to fulfill the contract being build by the bible. As far as I know Lord Jesus never mentioned trans, gays lesbians , binary, non binary or any thing under the umbrella . Christ is all about Love nothing else (period) the closest passage I can think of is a dream by St. Peter about a canvas tent lowed from the  sky   and the meaning to Saint Peter was that all foods were  acceptable for nourishment not just those deemed by the Jewish   priest , Which would be in opposition to the Old Testament  , therefore making Christ the fulfillment of the law of the Old Testament Also Christ mentions those who have castrated themselves for devotion to God in a very favorable light.
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kelly_aus

Firstly, I'm wondering what version of the Bible she's quoting..

Secondly, she's fallen in to the same trap all the antitrans and antigay christians take with most of these.. She's taken them out of context.. Written, historical, you name it, she's missed the correct context..  Here's an example:

Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

This actually has nothing to do with trans people, but does make a historical comment about a situation at the time - Men dressing as women to escape military service..
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arimoose

The bible was pieced together in that 1700s by a bunch of men trying to set up an iron clad hierarchy. They succeeded. In other words, those are not spiritual words to live by.

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Alana_Jane

Ugh...  and you can't even duck when your Mom starts throwing bible verses at you   :(

There are many, including myself that have walked this path to self acceptance in spite of our fundamentalist upbringing.  I recently found Andrea James' section on spirituality and the Trans person condition:  http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html

I hope this helps to heal the rift between your mother and you. 
Alana - Beautiful/Serene/Awakening
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KittyKat

And this is why when I realized I was transgender my weak faith in organized Christianity went to zero faith in organized Christianity. People can believe what they want and I'll have debates in my head if I believe in higher powers still, or if it was a device to control earlier civilizations.
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Eva Marie

Quote from: kelly_aus on December 28, 2014, 04:26:08 PM
Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

This actually has nothing to do with trans people, but does make a historical comment about a situation at the time - Men dressing as women to escape military service..

Yep. That verse is a prohibition against men dressing as women to avoid military duty, and women dressing as men to fight or go to the front to visit a man.

For someone like this I think it's pretty much a lost cause - they are going to believe what they believe no matter what. My own parents are the same; I've had scripture quoted at me by them. Funny thing - I am a Christian and I am intimately familiar with these "gotcha" verses.

I'd suggest that they consider Galations 3:28, or John 3:36.
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ImagineKate

Regarding the bible verses, people see what they want to see I realized.

I believe that God is love. God loves everyone.
God made me who I am! I did not decide one day to be a woman. I was born this way. God made me this way.

That's all I live by.

Also, this is why I set my security controls way high on my facebook account. People can't just post stuff on my wall. I've been a FB'er since 2005. That said, I'm probably going to blow away my account as part of my transition and start fresh, or get off of the horrible time suck that FB is.
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Monica Jean

Quote from: Kyra553 on December 28, 2014, 12:31:08 PM
Deuteronomy 23:17-18 warns against prostitution, including homosexual prostitution. They are "abominations to the Lord".

Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

Romans 1:26-27. This is the clearest teaching in the Bible against homosexual behavior of any kind. Homosexual behavior is the consequence of mankind's idolatry. Homosexual desires are called "degrading passions" and are said to be "against nature." Liberals argue that this passage does not condemn "loving, committed" homosexual behavior, but only condemns child abuse, homosexual prostitution and promiscuity. But this is impossible to maintain since the passage is a blanket condemnation with no qualifiers. There is no hint here that that which is against nature becomes natural if the two people are in a committed relationship.

Thoughts anyone?


Yes.  I wrote a diatribe earlier in this board about Deuteronomy.   Plenty in there that illustrates Deut 22:5 is to be followed as much as Deut 22:22.  If her church doesn't follow Deut 22:22, where v22 in the same chapter says those are committing acts of sexual infidelity must be killed,   then she has no right to complain about Deut 22:5. 

"Romans 1:26-27. This is the clearest teaching in the Bible against homosexual behavior of any kind."
This really ticks me off.  When anyone says this, THEY HAVE NEVE READ ROMANS 1, 2, and 3 IN ORDER.   UGGGGH!  Romans 1 CLEARLY shows what happens to a society and individuals when it/they reject God.  It doesn't talk about those who believe in Jesus as savior who are gay, trans, etc.  WHEN WILL CHRISTIANS STOP THE CHERRY-PICKING?!?!?! 

Pardon the multiple CAPS but...WOW....  as a Jesus Follower myself (I don't like to be called Christian because I don't want to be lumped into the group of these same people) I find this blantant misinterpretation is grotesque. 

And pointing to Deut 22:5 as the "end all" verse on cross dressing is pathethic when they don't pay attention to v22.

How many cheating spouses are sitting in the chairs at church?  They shouldn't be, according to v22, they need to be killed at once.    If the church doesn't follow God's directive of killing them, they are held blame for not following God's laws.


Which is why I'm glad I'm saved by the grace of God, not the rules of the past.
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AbbyKat

Quote from: Kyra553 on December 28, 2014, 12:31:08 PM
Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

Thoughts anyone?

You may want to inform her of the surrounding scripture of that verse:

4 If you see your fellow Israelite's donkey or ox fallen on the road, do not ignore it. Help the owner get it to its feet.

5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

6 If you come across a bird's nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young. 7 You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life.

8 When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.



So... if she's ever driven by a donkey laying down without tracking down the owner, shot a bird with a nest, or built her house without including a parapet... she's at least as sinful as you are.  There's a whole bunch of them that seem just as important as the verse about the fashion police before and after. 

You need to help save her soul and send her an email about it before it's too late! >:-)

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Rosa

If she is that conservative or fundamentalist and knows what the liberal explanation would be, then it sadly may be hopeless until she can learn to open her mind.  I was raised in a fundamentalist household, though they mainly parroted church teaching and were not able to quote to much scripture.  It is a tough situation and very tiresome, but if she is willing to dialog, there is hope.

I highly recommend this book that gets into all the quoted scriptures in detail, including the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic languages:http://www.amazon.com/What-Bible-Really-about-Homosexuality/dp/188636009X#reader_B005BTQEQ4

It also goes into detail about Sodom and Gommorah and clearly shows that the sin was inhospitality and all of the other scriptures that refer to the destruction of the cities state this.  However, many people will only believe what they want to believe. 

Best Wishes,
Rosa
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wherearemyshoes

There's a couple same sex couples in the bible... Ruth and Naomi, David and Johnathan, and Daniel and Ashpenaz...

But that doesn't matter because of context and how large the bible is right?

Nobody can decide what the bible says but you. It's your choice to read it and decide what it means. That's why I'm a bit against organized religion as a whole... your spiritually should be something personal to you, it shouldn't be taught by somebody else because their interpretations will be different than yours. If people actually went through on their own and digested it on their own imagine how different Christianity would be?

My suggestion is research, and not just on Christianity. Research everything, from Islam to Hinduism to those guys who worship Haruhi. Reading about other religions and even other ways Christianity is interpreted can't be harmful, it'll only help you on your track to figuring out your beliefs.
Just kidding, I know where they are.
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Lady Smith

QuoteMark 12:30-31New International Version (NIV)

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[a] 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

It constantly amazes me that many folk who call themselves Christian forget about Mark 12:30-31.

At its heart Christianity is such a simple religion, - even a child can understand it!

There's another old religious principle which is worth bearing in mind and it's this.  'The measure by which you judge others shall be used to judge you.'
And John 8:7 also tells us concerning the woman caught in adultery; - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

So why do so many folk who call themselves Christian spend so much time judging other people?
As a Franciscan I take very much to heart St. Francis's teaching that, 'One should always preach the Gospel and only if it is necessary use your mouth '.

By the way "repentance" means to turn about and to leave your wrong-doing behind you.  As a Sister of Penance this is something that occupies my meditations and prayers on a regular basis.  That I haven't stopped being the woman I know myself to be yet should tell you that I know very well in my heart that being a trans-woman is not wrong-doing.

Tell your Mum to go work in a homeless shelter as a volunteer for a couple of months because she hasn't realised what Christianity is yet and she needs to learn.

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BlonT

[cynic mode on] Wonder where the part is that say :if your child ,you love , is not behaving as society want.
Torture it so much that it commit suicide,so the sin is there. [cynic mode off]
Love and respect we need.Not greed and suppression.
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SkyGuy

Don't we love conservative Christians. Remember you could always add the point that in Deuteronomy it also says that a rape victim is to marry her rapist. If there is a woman that is found to be a non-virgin on her wedding night she is to be stoned to death at her fathers house. If she was in fact raped by someone they owe her father fifty pieces of silver. And here is the kicker if she does not scream out within the city walls you are to put both her and her rapist to death. Then in the New Testament Paul was drinking Haterade as well when he said in Chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians that if a woman has questions on the teachings of the bible that she should not ask the priest but should stay silent and ask her husband in the quiet of their own home. Also I would love to note that almost every woman in the bible is some sort of antagonist. From Eve to Delilah to Mary who traveled with Jesus being a prostitute. Women were always second class citizens in the bible, so maybe you should ask your mother if she wishes for you to be something your not maybe you should point out that biblically speaking she should hold her tongue unless her opinion is rightfully asked for.

Deuteronomy 22:13-29
1 Corinthians 14: 34-35

And something your mother does not know that my Grandfather that is a firm Christian taught me from the time I came out to him as a trans man. Eunuchs were gay men. That becomes very helpful in Matthew Chapter 19: 12 and if you look it a red letter it's red cause Jesus said it, because he love people as they were not for who they were with in bed. God loves you no matter what always remember that.
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femmebutt

hybrid
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Beatriz

Quote from: kelly_aus on December 28, 2014, 04:26:08 PM
Firstly, I'm wondering what version of the Bible she's quoting..

Secondly, she's fallen in to the same trap all the antitrans and antigay christians take with most of these.. She's taken them out of context.. Written, historical, you name it, she's missed the correct context..  Here's an example:

Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

This actually has nothing to do with trans people, but does make a historical comment about a situation at the time - Men dressing as women to escape military service..
This, so much.

Other than that, though, I've grown sick and tired of people calling trans issues "homossexuality". Oh come on, why does my life bother them so much? I can't even be a trans les woman in piece, people just assume I'm doing this to attract men and that I'm prostituting myself and blah blah blah.

So tiring. I'm Christian myself, but many these days seem like they just stop thinking once they embrace a religion or belief.



@Author, you might want to put a trigger warning in the title.
You could also kindly tell your mother that just like she wouldn't be able to say anything about nuclear physics, simply because she doesn't know anything about them, it makes zero sense to judge something she knows NOTHING about and spout out that "it's in the Bible" or whatever.

Seriously, people these days are so tiring. I'm sorry that those hate messages have to come from your own mother.

There's this useful resource pinned in this section that could be useful if she dared read it, but I'm pretty sure she'd just call it sinful, heretic and impious or something. You could cite that "my people perish for lack of knowledge" and that the Proverbs were written so as to judge with equity (Pv 1), but I'm not sure it's worth arguing at this point.



Quote from: femmebutt on March 31, 2015, 11:43:26 PM
God was wrong. Period.
I actually don't think so myself, but to each their opinion. And I really understand where you're coming from...

I wouldn't wish being transgendered to anyone. I got lucky myself and started "passing" really soon, but do I deserve any respect from society or fundamentalist Christians? No, of course not, I'm not even human in their eyes!

Go figure.
[/rant]
Just call me Bea for short~.
Body under construction.

Since I tend to write too much, I often use bold and italics to try and give focus to the parts I judge more important. This is not meant to be offensive in any way.
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