Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

Is passing simply impossible for a few?

Started by lemons, January 09, 2015, 07:45:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lemons

I am wondering if most people are able to pass, no matter what age or genetics they are working with. (talking about on the MtF spectrum)  Given enough surgeries and voice work etc I'm wondering if most can pass, or if I'm just one of those few cases that was doomed from the start. :/  I started transition at around 25, I'm thin and I'm 6 feet tall, every one seems to say I'll be ok eventually with FFS and such, but I have no idea how I could ever blend in with my body in daily life as any other woman...I hope I'm not one of those absolute lost causes is all...I really want to be able to get on with my life and I've been transitioning for almost 3 years on hormones now....

What's interesting is I've talked to other trans women who have transitioned and pass fine and have very similar measurements to me....but to myself I just look odd and strange in most clothes whereas I see pictures of them and they don't at all.

Chest: 35 inches
Waist: 30 inches
Hips: 34 inches
Under bust: 33 inches
Shouldlers: 17.5 inches
Hand length (from middle finger to wrist): 8 inches
Palm length: 3.5 inches
Shoe size: Women's 12-13
Head size: 23.7 inches or 60 cm
Height: 6 feet
Weight: 160 lbs. (I'm pretty slim)


I always feel like I'm too big and bulky, but maybe not....I'm not sure anymore...
  •  

Devlyn

Yes, "passing" is completely impossible for some people. It's completely impossible for me because I tell people that I'm a crossdresser.  You're going to be fine once you get past your hangup over what other people think of you.

Hugs, Devlyn
  •  

lemons

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 09, 2015, 07:52:38 PM
Yes, "passing" is completely impossible for some people. It's completely impossible for me because I tell people that I'm a crossdresser. 


I'm not following that last part...is there a reason you tell people that?
  •  

Jill F

The day I ran out of sh*ts to give about what anyone else thought was the day I set myself free.

I am 6'2", huge frame, muscular, big hands, big feet and weigh well, I don't want to know.  Safe to say north of two bills though. Hey, I'm big.  Whatever. Passing really has more to do with demeanor and attitude than looks anyway.   I'm just a big girl.  That's all.  Nothing to see here...

I can't change these things, so I stopped worrying about them and worked hard on everything else.

If you don't think you pass, you probably won't.  Believe in yourself, forget about what others think, be yourself and you're golden.
  •  

Devlyn

Quote from: lemons on January 09, 2015, 08:00:31 PM
I'm not following that last part...is there a reason you tell people that?

That's how I identify.  I have no issues with being a crossdresser, I'm very open about it.

Hugs, Devlyn
  •  

ChiGirl

I was thinking about this in another thread.  I think I worry less about passing than I do about being accepted as a woman.  I don't even care about being accepted as a gg, but I sort of dread the idea of people thinking of me as just a crazy guy in a dress.   As Jill said, so much of it is attitude and demeanor. I just hope I can have that confidence.
  •  

Ms Grace

Lemons, I've seen some pics you posted of yourself and I seriously don't understand how you don't pass. Do you go out in girl mode and everyone calls you sir? Or do you only presume they can tell? You say you're slim but then say you are bulky, at 160lb/6' you are comparable to my 170lb/6'3" - I'd guess my other measurements are similar but I don't have a measuring tape to know, I lost or burned it or threw it out because fretting about those things only made me feel bad about myself. I'm sure I've told you before passing isn't just about how you look, it's about presentation (clothes, hair, shoes, jewellery, makeup. posture..there's no need to go overboard just tastefully enough) and confidence and/or lousy not caring what others think (see Jill's comment above!).

You talk about physical aspects and surgery, but what might be some of those presentation and confidence points that could be changed to help?
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
  •  

lemons

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 09, 2015, 09:35:57 PM
Lemons, I've seen some pics you posted of yourself and I seriously don't understand how you don't pass. Do you go out in girl mode and everyone calls you sir?

Yes.  Or sometimes worse.  Like "freak" or "->-bleeped-<-got."

Only at work with customers do I ever get correctly read.  And even then it's very 50/50.

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 09, 2015, 09:35:57 PM
You say you're slim but then say you are bulky, at 160lb/6' you are comparable to my 170lb/6'3"

Weird.  That means I'm not slim?  My lowest I've been is 150 lately and highest about 175.  I just mean bulky in that my build is kind of boxy with my square shoulders and narrow hips and all.
  •  

Ms Grace

Well I consider myself quite slender. I say a genetic woman on the train the other day who would have been 6'1"... she was quite young and really skinny. I thought to myself that it would be interesting to see her in her late thirties/early forties when the weight usually starts to pile on. Anyway, I've seen women at 6' who have been huge, I was practically anorexic next to them.

I'm appalled that people would call you freak/->-bleeped-<-got regardless of your appearance. But I'm curious what you might be wearing when you cop that kind of unwarranted abuse?
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
  •  

Obfuskatie

I'm not sure if this will be any help, but I've found that feminine accoutrements tend to outweigh a lot of gender signifiers.  This is all purely my opinion based on the mountains of books I read and tutorials I watched.

Pay attention to other women your age and what they wear.  Pay attention to fashion through magazines and shows, and the flattering colors that match your season coloring.  Different colors rotate in and out of trend.  Darker reds like wine, but with more brownish hues are supposed to be on trend right now for instance.  Be mindful of your outfits, make sure they don't clash with themselves.  Patterns and. color opposites can be tricky when you incorporate them.

Get clothes that flatter an inverted triangle figure.  Skirts and dresses that are a-line, flouncy, and around knee length draw attention to your lower half and accentuate your hips.  Boot cut, straight leg and boyfriend jeans work well too.  3/4 sleeves shorten your arms, tops with scoop or v neckline diminish the width of the shoulder.  Find a store near you that sells larger sized women's shoes, they exist, models and WNBA players need shoes too.  If you don't have a pair of UGGs, or nice boots, get them and wear them, it's winter.
Skinny jeans and pencil skirts make broad shoulders look bigger, as do camis, halters, tube tops, and boat necklines.  Essentially you want to wear embellishments on the areas that are smaller to fake an hourglass figure.  There's such a large variety of styles because women can be pear shaped, rectangular and the inverted triangle as well.

If you're not good with makeup, go to Sephora or a department store like Macy's, and have a professional demo their line of products, then buy the ones you like from them.  Watch what they choose for you, why, and how they apply it.  Too much or badly applied makeup is worse than none.

Walk slower with shorter strides, and practice as though you were on a balance beam.  Gliding around with grace is more effective than you might think.

Read You Just Don't Understand, by Deborah Tannen.  It thoroughly explores the differences in how women tend to speak compared to men.  Public or private, personal or professional, many of the habits that you have grown up with in your conversational intonation and how and when you speak are more significant than the pitch of your voice when people are trying to read gender from you.

Confidence matters.  Most people are attracted to it more than any other quality.

Not all women can be Barbies, most cheat anyway (Spanx[emoji6]).  Instead of comparing yourself to an idyllic stereotype, embrace the feminine qualities you have and accentuate them with sparkles or embellishments or patterns.

Accessories are very important.  Bigger purses will look better on larger/taller women.  Earrings and manicured nails are synonymous for feminine IMO.

If there's any particular part of your anatomy you feel screams MALE,  there are ways to cover it up.  Prominent Adam's apples can be covered by scarves, or reverse contour makeup or other clothes.  Women have hyoid cartilage on their trachea as well, just not usually very much.  Widows peaks and high foreheads can be handled with bangs, hats, beanies, etc.  Using the color opposite of your five o'clock shadow as your foundation, orangish if you have paler skin like me, will make any stubble very difficult to see on your face when it grows in.

Don't wear heels unless you can walk in them.  Flats are on trend right now anyway.  If you must wear heels and are having issues with balance, there are exercises you can do to strengthen your ankles to help eliminate any wobbling.  One of the simplest is pretending you are drawing the alphabet letter by letter with your foot, alternating left and right.  Many dancers and models do these to prepare for shows and performances they have to do in heels.

That's all I can think of for now [emoji2]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



If people are what they eat, I really need to stop eating such neurotic food  :icon_shakefist:
  •  

anjaq

A major problem is self perception. I transitioned 17 years ago, the occasions people take me for being trans are very rare, I am told I "pass" fine and my gyn told me I have a absolutely female phenotype now - I have wider hips than chest while having E cup breast size.
Still - when I think of myself I cannot but wonder why this would be - given my wide shoulders, my partially masculine facial features, my wide ribcage, my voice,... etc - if I look in the mirror there are quite a few moments or even days where I would say that this screams "trans" or even "male". There is something wrong with the self perception of very many transpeople, sadly and I believe it is not all correctable by changing the body.

  •  

iwaslost

Quote from: lemons on January 09, 2015, 07:45:05 PM
I am wondering if most people are able to pass, no matter what age or genetics they are working with. (talking about on the MtF spectrum)  Given enough surgeries and voice work etc I'm wondering if most can pass, or if I'm just one of those few cases that was doomed from the start. :/  I started transition at around 25, I'm thin and I'm 6 feet tall, every one seems to say I'll be ok eventually with FFS and such, but I have no idea how I could ever blend in with my body in daily life as any other woman...I hope I'm not one of those absolute lost causes is all...I really want to be able to get on with my life and I've been transitioning for almost 3 years on hormones now....

What's interesting is I've talked to other trans women who have transitioned and pass fine and have very similar measurements to me....but to myself I just look odd and strange in most clothes whereas I see pictures of them and they don't at all.

Chest: 35 inches
Waist: 30 inches
Hips: 34 inches
Under bust: 33 inches
Shouldlers: 17.5 inches
Hand length (from middle finger to wrist): 8 inches
Palm length: 3.5 inches
Shoe size: Women's 12-13
Head size: 23.7 inches or 60 cm
Height: 6 feet
Weight: 160 lbs. (I'm pretty slim)


I always feel like I'm too big and bulky, but maybe not....I'm not sure anymore...
every woman comes in a different shape and size. are your fingers the same? no. so everybody else. you should embrace yourself and stop comparing yourself to other women, cis or trans. you are a woman, so cis women are somewhat bulky and very tall, but that doesn't make them any less of a woman. so love who you are no matter what shape\size you come with.
  •  

lemons

It seem the successes far outweigh those who fail at transition or am I wrong?  Are the ones who make it simply more vocal?  It's hard to say...

I mean, for MtF individuals, many go through male puberty, and it's hard to pass as female after male puberty if your bone structure develops masculine enough....so I don't understand how so many succeed and very few seem to fail??
  •  

Ms Grace

I think to say "fail at transition" can be a fairly loaded proposition. When I was 25 in 1991 I essentially "failed at transition", primarily because I believed I had "failed". And yet, looking at pictures of me from the time I can say I had no basis in fact for that belief - sure I probably could have done with a better wardrobe and better support and better resources too, but I was there. All I had to do was see that I was and believe in myself. And I couldn't. So if I "failed" at anything it was that.

I passed when I wore female clothes, I didn't when I wore andro clothes. Do you think that sunk in? No. I thought I was too tall. Did anyone else notice? No. I was my own worst enemy. The truth is I just wasn't ready. I know that doesn't apply to everyone who doesn't go ahead with transition, but it's equally true that not going ahead doesn't equal failure.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
  •  

Indoctrinated

Quote from: anjaq on January 11, 2015, 12:09:09 PM
A major problem is self perception. I transitioned 17 years ago, the occasions people take me for being trans are very rare, I am told I "pass" fine and my gyn told me I have a absolutely female phenotype now - I have wider hips than chest while having E cup breast size.
Still - when I think of myself I cannot but wonder why this would be - given my wide shoulders, my partially masculine facial features, my wide ribcage, my voice,... etc - if I look in the mirror there are quite a few moments or even days where I would say that this screams "trans" or even "male". There is something wrong with the self perception of very many transpeople, sadly and I believe it is not all correctable by changing the body.
Don't be so harsh on yourself. Open your eyes and see lots of women have male traits. Some have lower pitch, others have body hair, many can't walk properly on heels and so on... It's admirable to see even after 17 years you're still willing to learn, to do it better. But really, isn't life all about living?
"Freedom, I must say,
Exists within unconditioned minds"

Dead Can Dance - Indoctrination (A Design for Living)
  •  

kelly_aus

Quote from: lemons on January 11, 2015, 06:01:20 PM
It seem the successes far outweigh those who fail at transition or am I wrong?  Are the ones who make it simply more vocal?  It's hard to say...

I'd say those that transition and end up happy probably outnumber those that transition and aren't happy.. Success and failure are a little loaded.

QuoteI mean, for MtF individuals, many go through male puberty, and it's hard to pass as female after male puberty if your bone structure develops masculine enough....so I don't understand how so many succeed and very few seem to fail??

Attitude. Confidence. For myself, I know I'm a woman - and that translates back in to confidence.

Regardless of how feminine you may look, if you don't think you 'pass', you never will. Your lack of self confidence will shine through. You also seem to be locked on the "looks" side of passing.. "Looks" are merely a part of the equation.

I've had fairly average results from HRT, my life experiences tell me I pass.. Based on my own feelings, my looks let me down - but I have the rest of the package together enough that the looks aren't as important as they might be.
  •  

suzifrommd

Quote from: lemons on January 11, 2015, 06:01:20 PM
It seem the successes far outweigh those who fail at transition or am I wrong?  Are the ones who make it simply more vocal?  It's hard to say...

I mean, for MtF individuals, many go through male puberty, and it's hard to pass as female after male puberty if your bone structure develops masculine enough....so I don't understand how so many succeed and very few seem to fail??

I don't think so. I know far more transwomen IRL who don't pass. But I don't hear them complain. Most of them are happy enough to be living as women that their lives have already surpassed their dreams.

The happiest trans women I know are those who don't pass. They never worry about being clocked.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
  •  

anjaq

Quote from: Indoctrinated on January 11, 2015, 06:41:21 PM
Don't be so harsh on yourself. Open your eyes and see lots of women have male traits. Some Some have lower pitch, others have body hair, many can't walk properly on heels and so on... It's admirable to see even after 17 years you're still willing to learn, to do it better. But really, isn't life all about living?
Well I begin to believe now that it is just me that is wrong. I know quite a few transwomen who have those perceptions. It is common and one has to work it out in the mind - believe what others see and don't see and not be decepted by a faulty self perception that emphaszies some traits. On the other hand one has to be realistic and that is hard. I know some women have lower pitch, others have body hair, others have some masciline facial features, others are tall, but the more of that is combined, the more uncomfortable it gets for that woman and many transwomen combine several of these traits. So I do see the value in corrective surgery and using other helpers, but one has to accept at some point the things that have worked and not be unhappy still. I know women online who had FFS or VFS and still think they look or sound male despite there is no trace of that. Thats what I meant about self perception - one needs to be ready to accept that things are ok, even though one might have a more feminine image in mind.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 11, 2015, 07:52:32 PM
The happiest trans women I know are those who don't pass. They never worry about being clocked.
Haha - well, that is a way to see it. I am not sure if this is really what they wanted and if they are totally happy about that, but what else to do. At least one does not need to be paranoid about "passing" and beine "unstealthed"...

  •  

Obfuskatie

All my girlfriends, cis and trans, have a few characteristics they are self conscious about.  Unfortunately, as we become acculturated to the female experience, the learning curve is high because we're catching up to women our age with a lifetime of practice.  Also, it's easy to confuse body dysmorphia with a healthy reaction to impossible beauty standards.

Our perceptions of ourself, are flawed in a few ways.  The flaws we perceive are often aspects other people ignore because they are too busy obsessing about their flaws to notice our turmoil.  Other people hear our voice differently than we do.  When we talk, the vibrations created by projecting our voice reverberate in our inner ear, deepening the sound we hear while talking.  Record yourself speaking to hear the difference.



If people are what they eat, I really need to stop eating such neurotic food  :icon_shakefist:
  •  

Carrie Liz

I have met a few trans women at my local support groups that I genuinely don't think could pass as cis regardless of surgeries, but it is VERY VERY rare, is especially uncommon in anyone who transitions while they still have youthful androgynous features, (trust me, you do,) and it generally only happens to people with multiple features that are so glaringly masculine that they immediately say "went through a male puberty" no matter what else they do to try and make up for it. And trust me, you are NOT one of those people. From your pictures, your body is VERY feminine, and your face is generally very cute, young, and andro looking. You have a lot of delicate features, a very feminine chin and profile, and honestly I think the only thing stopping you is your hair. Very few trans women have the privilege of passing with short hair. Even cis-women with short hair get misgendered on occasion, as do cis guys with long hair and shaven faces. I'm not saying it's fail-proof, but it really helps to have as many feminine features as possible to complete the picture. Longer hair softens a face. It would help a lot.

Also, I don't know what your voice sounds like, but working on your voice is probably the biggest gender tipping point for people who look androgynous. Lots of cis-women look male-ish, and I've seen cis guys with long hair who look female-ish, but as soon as they speak it becomes blatantly obvious what gender they are. That would help tremendously as well. It's been my biggest help in passing even though I'm over 6 feet tall, large-built, and have a MUCH bigger forehead, chin, and nose than you do.
  •