Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

How long can an MtF reasonably keep passing as a male?

Started by April_TO, March 01, 2015, 08:41:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ImagineKate

Quote from: VannaSiamese on March 02, 2015, 10:27:27 AM
This brings me to another important point... hormones don't always make you sterile! =)


me as a boy

Cute pic!

(Un)fortunately for me, short of what I have in cold storage I think my days of fathering new offspring are over.

  •  

Sunderland

Vanna, there's no way I'd ever believe you were a guy, either. Your face is super feminine. If you weren't wearing a suit, I honestly would not even know which one was you and which was your girlfriend.
  •  

Carrie Liz

If you're growing your hair out and actually trying to feminize your appearance, it varies. Could be anywhere from a few months to a couple of years before you start male-failing. For me, the threshold happened at about 13 months of HRT when I started passing without even really trying. With my growing hair combined with my feminizing appearance and my unisex work uniform, people stopped being able to tell which sex I was. People were even switching back and forth between "he" and "she" within the same sentence.

(If you want to see what I looked like at the time, here is a "presentation check" video I made in my work uniform at the EXACT point where people generally started calling me "she" intermittently.)


(This was almost exactly one year ago, by the way. So obviously, that 2nd year on hormones makes a BIG difference. After one year, I was just starting to get to the "androgynous" phase, where now with my hair, body, and mannerisms, I don't know if I could pass as male even if I tried. Maybe if I was wearing a business suit and deliberately walking with my legs apart in a dominant manner and speaking in a super-deep voice? I dunno.)

If you're NOT trying, though, if you keep your hair styled in a stereotypically "male" style and don't try to change your voice at all or feminize your appearance or mannerisms at all, and still wear male clothes, frankly the duration can be more or less indefinite. Hell, I've even heard stories from people who have gotten FFS while still keeping short hair and presenting as male who still could easily keep being accepted as a guy by people. And it makes sense. Even cis women, who never went through a male puberty in the first place, can get "sir"ed when they have short hair and wear masculine clothes. So if you sound the part too, and act like the part, trust me, people can and do easily overlook a little bit of boob development, butt development, and softer features.

Also, this is another thing that I've noticed... especially with the voice thing... people will listen to what you tell them. If you sound like a guy, look somewhat guyish, and have a deep voice, people will readily still accept you as male as long as you tell them that you are male and go by a male name. You can get away with a LOT of s*** in terms of gender-nonconforming features as long as you have confidence in who you are. Even after the point at work where I stopped passing as male to pretty much every single customer, the other poker dealers still accepted me as a guy.

I wouldn't stress out about it too much. There's a LOT of leniency in terms of what people will accept gender-wise when you're still wearing masculine clothes.
  •  

Jill F

Quote from: Obfuskatie on March 02, 2015, 01:15:44 AM
I think most of my life was a series of male fails. 

Also, can we call it "female-victory?" Or something less negative?

^THIS^  I knew I liked you!
  •  

Dee Marshall



Quote from: VannaSiamese on March 02, 2015, 10:27:27 AM

me as a boy
Ah,... no. You dressing as a boy. You don't look any more male than your girlfriend does.
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
  •  

Virginia

In our male-dominant society, it is generally assumed that a person is male until they prove they are not. But regardless of whether you are MAAB or FAAB, it comes down to having enough markers of your target gender to be accepted that way. Specifically, MAAB's need to add enough female gender markers to create doubt about their maleness. FAAB's need to remove enough female gender markers to remove doubt about their maleness.

Carrie Liz says it very well:
If you're NOT trying, though, if you keep your hair styled in a stereotypically "male" style and don't try to change your voice at all or feminize your appearance or mannerisms at all, and still wear male clothes, frankly the duration can be more or less indefinite.

In the bigender world we call this "Mister Potato Head." Stick on a few pieces and people see you as a guy; stick on some others and people see you as a girl.

It takes a tremendous amount of effort to find a balance. I'm a rail skinny 5'10" and 144 pounds with a shoulder length grunge. My body has always been very androgynous; 5 years on hormones did little to change that. My breasts look like good pecs when I go without a shirt in the summer, and my female alter doesn't feel a need to shave the fine hair on my chest, legs and under my arms to wear a bikini to the beach. She styles my shoulder length hair, I keep it a tousled mess. I have a deep baritone voice, she sounds like Sofia Bush. I had my beard removed except for my VanDyke; she shaves it off and I let it grow. I have my wardrobe, she has hers. My electrolysist thinned my eyebrows to look like I did when I was a teenager and I keep my nails with about an 1/8" of white showing. At 55, I grew up in a world where only prostitutes had their ears pierced so my female alter wears clip-ons. When I am clean shaven wearing bootcut jeans and a tee shirt, I can literally walk into the mens room and letting my female alter front, people will see her as a female when I come out.
~VA (pronounced Vee- Aye, the abbreviation for the State of Virginia where I live)
  •  

Cindy

Quote from: Jill F on March 02, 2015, 12:14:56 PM
Quote from: Obfuskatie on March 02, 2015, 01:15:44 AM
I think most of my life was a series of male fails. 

Also, can we call it "female-victory?" Or something less negative?

^THIS^  I knew I liked you!

We need NASA speak?
Gender conformity
Or
MAABBNPAF ?
  •  

Dee Marshall



Quote from: Jill F on March 02, 2015, 12:14:56 PM
Quote from: Obfuskatie on March 02, 2015, 01:15:44 AM
Also, can we call it "female-victory?" Or something less negative?
^THIS^  I knew I liked you!
We need something with more punch. "Male fail" is, at least, alliterative. How about "female domination"? [emoji14]

Dee

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but whips and chains..."
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
  •  

ImagineKate

I notice something as well.

The first thing people notice about me is that I lost weight.

Then that proceeds to general "what's up with you" questions.

Today I came out to a coworker in that same sequence.

"Hi R, how are you? I see you've lost a lot of weight, are you OK?"

"I said, well yes but there are major things going on in my life right now."

Then we talk a bit and I spill the tea. She has nothing but support and encouragement and gave me a hug.

So yeah, maybe people see that you're different but can't quite place it because they're accustomed to you.
  •  

Ltl89

I started transitioning at 24 and hrt in June of 2013.  Its been a long time and so much has changed from that time period.   Recently, like September of 2014, I started taking estradiol injections which was another big step as my levels were finally impriving from where they were on oral hrt.  Besides the medication, I've been doing laser hair removal for a year or so, which has significantly removed my facial hair, I've grown my hair out quite long and usually straighten it and my eyebrows are done in more of a feminine manner.  Even after all this, I'm still making changes and working on getting where I want to be.  I no longer really pass as a cismale and its more of an androgynous thing. Its obvious to people that I'm changing and I get gendered multiple ways depending on the day, including on the phone which really phases me when I don't try.  I'm very close to fulltime and have been working on my emotional stability as well as finances and family, besides my appearance, before full jumping the gun.  Everything has changed very gradual and I can't pinpoint the exact moment people have picked up on it, but people knowim trans and I can't hide that fact anymore. Like at work, I'm still showing up as a guy, but I know my coworkers must be aware something is up and one that I came out to said that she suspected it for a while.  And people start treating you differently and start treating you more like!e your identified gender.  Even in boy clothes, you see people are taking you differently and interpreting you as female. After being in transition for a while, I no longer see passing in black or white terms.  Sometimes it just happens even when you are not trying.  But male fail or tricking people into thinking you are a cismale are two things that don't really happen in the middle of your transition.  People!e gradually pick up on it as you go on and its hard to hide obvious changes.  But I say this having prolonged the androgynous phase.  Its different for everyone, but you can only get away with it for so long.  Eventually, people will know or guess.  You really can't hide a transition forever and all the small changes will gradually be picked up on which is a good thing in the end as that's sort of the point,lol.  Yoiu don't go from point a to point b.  You go to point a to b to c to d, etc...., ya know?  So expect to lose your ability to pass as a cismale at some point and don't expect to pass as a cisfemale right away.  I guess the overall point is you will gradually change and people will pick up on it at different points, but its hard for me to say when as its all been very gradual and still is.
  •  

Obfuskatie

TY Jill [emoji5]️
Once acronyms can't be said in two syllables, they are too long IMO Cynthia [emoji53]

Quote from: Dee Walker on March 02, 2015, 02:03:00 PM
^THIS^  I knew I liked you!

We need something with more punch. "Male fail" is, at least, alliterative. How about "female domination"? [emoji14]

Dee

"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but whips and chains..."
Perfect rhyming yeah.  Alliteration always allots a lot more alike sounding consonants. 
And I just realized that quote is from a Rihanna song [emoji33]...
Alternatively, I'd prefer we alighted on something slightly less exciting, if you'll allow...[emoji6]

Does Charlie Sheen have a copyright on "winning?"
Because it could be something like:
   Winning - being correctly identified as your chosen gender when you're not even trying.
   Or some spelling variation thereof... As long as it is not confused with a horse's whinnying.
   Or maybe winsome?

Hooray for rebranding/reframing!  For realsies though, failing sux IMO...


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If people are what they eat, I really need to stop eating such neurotic food  :icon_shakefist:
  •  

Obfuskatie


Quote from: learningtolive on March 02, 2015, 02:25:59 PM
...
I no longer really pass as a cismale and its more of an androgynous thing.
...
This part is where hetero-cisnormativity causes people to give you odd looks.  Thing doesn't fit their worldview.
Remember It's Pat on SNL?
  "Are you a brotha or a sista?"
  "Actually I'm an only child."
  It's Pat!  Shrug...

Is it weird I always want to push people into the pool?  Especially when they are slowly inching in to acclimate.  Rip off that band-aid!  The slow acclimation process is agonizing.  I know, because I'm a hypocrite...[emoji41]


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If people are what they eat, I really need to stop eating such neurotic food  :icon_shakefist:
  •  

mac1

Quote from: VannaSiamese on March 02, 2015, 10:27:27 AM
It really depends.  I have been on hormones for 5 years, and sometimes still pass as a boy.  It's funny too, because when I try to pass as a boy, it's always a fail. It's my androgynous look that can put me either way.

For example, my girlfriend and I are having a baby, so, to avoid confusion, I dress boyish when we go to our doctor appointments.  Without fail, every time, a nurse asks if we are sisters, or friends, and often times they ask if the father of the child is still in the picture.  They are always very surprised when I chirp in, saying I'm the father, and I can tell they rarely fully understand.  We had some pregnancy complications last week, and I spent 5 hours in the room with a nurse, and I tried to explain to her that I was the dad.  She still continued to call me she, and by the end of the visit, I realized that she thought we were lesbians, and that we had sought out a sperm donor. 

This brings me to another important point... hormones don't always make you sterile! =)


me as a boy
That is probably because you still look like a girl in that picture.
  •  

Ms Grace

People were commenting - a lot - that is was looking younger. But that was mostly people who I hadnt seen for a few months at a time. Even after someone at work finally twigged that my legs and arms were hairless (I'd already been waxing them for like six months) and after I had my ears pierced no one twigged to anything. If anything they probably just presumed I was finally letting my "obvious gay identity" loose lol. Once I came out though all the pieces fell into place in a very major "that explains that" kind of way.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
  •  

ThePhoenix

I think that the truthful answer to the question is, "it depends." No? 

Some people will reach "male-fail" very quickly.  (Sorry, I can't think of an equally catchy "female-succeed" equivalent :)).

Some people will never pass.

Most people will fall somewhere between the two extremes.

Where you fall depends on your own individual combination of genetics, age, hormonal variations, sensitivity to transition meds, and willingness/ability to spend on various procedures.  A lot of it really is luck of the draw.

In law school, I learned that the answer to every legal question is, "it depends."  I find that "it depends" is a very good answer to transition related questions too. :)

  •  

Alana_Jane

If you're looking for a catchy replacement for male-fail, how about contracting feminine and winning to form, feminin'ing

First time I got mam'ed, I was 26 with long hair in an androgenous pair of green sweat pants and sweat shirt.  I'm still 6 weeks out from any form of hormones my body didn't already have in it.  Now at 46, I'm not so certain that I'll ever really pass.  But I really don't care anymore, I'm planning on working on my presentation anyway. 

Kate, congratulations on feminin'ing at the doctors office.  That's quiet the kudo. 
Hugs,

-Alana
Alana - Beautiful/Serene/Awakening
  •  

cindianna_jones

HRT did nothing for me. It was all attitude and weight loss. After I had surgery, nearly two years after I started HRT,  I did get some breast development but I've lost most of that as I have slimmed down significantly.
  •  

ImagineKate

Quote from: Obfuskatie on March 02, 2015, 01:15:44 AM
Also, can we call it "female-victory?" Or something less negative?



LOL! I love this. I am going to use this from now on.
  •  

ImagineKate

I had an interesting experience today.

I had a vendor meeting. These guys flew in from out of town.

They gendered all of my colleagues, "him" and "his" but absolutely refused to gender me. I am in male drag today.

Only one of them kind of reluctantly said,"sorry about that man" when he bumped into my chair.

My manager knows about me being trans but he keeps it quiet and obviously won't out me to a vendor.

My days of passing as a male seem to be coming to an end. At least I hope so. I have to keep it up for a couple of months yet, don't know if I'll make it. :)

"female-victory" here I come!
  •  

ImagineKate

Quote from: Alana_Jane on March 02, 2015, 08:36:42 PM
Kate, congratulations on feminin'ing at the doctors office.  That's quiet the kudo. 
Hugs,

-Alana

Thanks Alana. :)
  •