Society's reaction: MTF vs. FTM

[CarrotInsanity]

A little context, I'm a teen FTM.  I'm only out to a few people, mostly brothers' friends.  Still deciding whether it's worth it.

Society seems to be more comfortable with trans-men than with trans-women.

No disrespect to anyone.  From what I've seen, trans-women are very beautiful, refined, confident, etc.  Is it because straight cis-guys are nervous of how attractive trans-women can be? 

Is femininity "degrading" in some way?  A rough-and-tumble girl is better tolerated then, say, a boy who enjoys nail polish and clothes-shopping.
Thoughts? 

[androgynouspainter26]

Absolutely!  It's considered more acceptable for a woman to act like a man and vice-versa (whatever the words "man" and "woman" mean).  It all comes down to misogyny; it's considered degrading for a man to stoop to the level of a woman, as you know.  I'm not sure how into queer theory you are, but there's an amazing book you might want to read that'll shine more light on this topic than I can.  It's called Whipping Girl, written by Julia Serano; reading it really helped open my eyes to the way our culture perpetuates misogyny and transmisogyny.  It also helped me figure out my own personal gender issues a bit better.

My own personal opinion is that it's both due to the issue of a "man" stooping to the level of a woman and the idea that men are entitled to a woman's body; trans women are "tricking" men into being attracted to them.  It's a very harmful narrative I'm sure we've all seen in the past.  I have more thoughts on this, but I'm far to tired to articulate them properly!

-S

[LordKAT]

Life as a woman sucked. I got turned down for jobs for being taken as female. If you think that was just in my mind , you are wrong, the employers told me so outright.

It made some people think I was doing this for the wrong reasons due to that.  For some there is still dome doubt. Since it was OK to look and act 'manish' in most circumstances, it was harder for others to see what I suffered from no matter how obvious it was to me.


Perhaps this post makes no sense, my ability to write what I mean is lacking.

[suzifrommd]

There is a general disparagement of femininity in our society. The trappings of femininity: Jewelry, makeup, beauty) etc., are looked upon as frivolous, vain, etc. The trappings of masculinity (sports, cars, physical prowess) while just as frivolous have no such stigma. Even modern feminism praises the girl that goes into sports or wants a powerful career and is uncomfortable with the girl that plays with dolls and wants to be a mom.

We are also a very visual species. Seeing is believing. Because transguys pass visually so easily after a few rounds of T, people believe them as males. Society is also very accepting of passable trans women (Don't hear much condemnation of Janet Mock or Laverne Cox, right?), but non-passable trans women, because they "look like men" are much harder to accept.

Just my opinion, of course.

[Bazer63]

I think because we still live in a patriarchy, (feminist, I am not a terf), Transwomen are seen as 'lowering themselves to the level of women and trans men are seen, while still evil deviants, as at least going in the right direction.

[mac1]

There is a general disparagement of femininity in our society. The trappings of femininity: Jewelry, makeup, beauty) etc., are looked upon as frivolous, vain, etc. The trappings of masculinity (sports, cars, physical prowess) while just as frivolous have no such stigma. Even modern feminism praises the girl that goes into sports or wants a powerful career and is uncomfortable with the girl that plays with dolls and wants to be a mom.

We are also a very visual species. Seeing is believing. Because transguys pass visually so easily after a few rounds of T, people believe them as males. Society is also very accepting of passable trans women (Don't hear much condemnation of Janet Mock or Laverne Cox, right?), but non-passable trans women, because they "look like men" are much harder to accept.

Just my opinion, of course.

What about this situation: Female sports reporters have been given full access to male locker rooms even where the men are naked but male sports reporters are still not allowed in female locker rooms under any conditions.

[fifi000]

First off, the details are much more critical and opionated than appropriate. You would have to adopt others view and goals of life.

I have traveled the country, cross country from the west coasts of California to the North East to New York City..

Traveling and presenting as a transman is much more acceptable.. 'How could such a beautiful woman want to be man' 'change me'

The reaction is horrible people putting thought towards you being mtf, intended physical disrespect, death threats.. List goes on

Experience a bit more, and you will see the standards women and men hold.. Then include the transgender factor after.. Wham!

You'll be fine!   

[Amy1988]

Curiously the only problems Ive encountered have been from gay men.  I've only met a few and they were about as transfobic as it gets.  As far as cis gender people,  I never have a problem.

[mac1]

I think that society in general is more open and accepting of "FTM" than of "MTF".

[TransSasha]

One of those double standard issues I suppose. A FTM is seen as a woman finding her "inner strength", seeking power, and the image probably associates itself with modern day feminism, whereas a MTF is seen a weak, confused male, "why would a man want to be a woman, submissive, give up his "societal power". Society brings up males to never show emotion other than anger, never show submissiveness, never show you need help. So when people see a MTF, they see a man trying to disguise themselves as a woman, and they automatically search for all those standards men typically demonstrate. When they don't see it, it freaks them out.

[iKate]

Curiously the only problems Ive encountered have been from gay men.  I've only met a few and they were about as transfobic as it gets.  As far as cis gender people,  I never have a problem.

Oh absolutely. I hAd gay friends who stopped talking to me when I came out to them. I wish I had their support because they most certainly have mine.

[amber roskamp]

cis people who aren't accepting see it as men wanting to be women. Which they don't understand because they are sexist. They male-ness and masculinity are superior to female-ness and femininity. That's why often issues trans women face is actually trans misogyny  rather then transphobia. Also trans women are more likely to be visible since our society puts so much weight in women's appearances.

I do acknowledge though that trans men do have different forms of oppression. Because if your trans identity gets discovered by the wrong person you may not be taken seriously Aka you will be treated like a women.

[Beth Andrea]

I think that society in general is more open and accepting of "FTM" than of "MTF".

I think so too...and it might be related to how society seems to prefer lesbianism vs male homosexuality.

Two women kissing? That's HOT. A woman dressing up as a man? (<--not my words, TG/TS are often viewed this way) Ah, how cute!

Two men kissing? That is terrible/gross/immoral! A man dressing up as a woman? Obviously some kind of perv, just wants his jollies.



I wish people in general would not judge others based on their private moral yardstick.

ETA: In the 3 years I've been "out", there has been only 1 incident of any hostility ("YOU are a guy."). OTOH, nearly everyday I go out, I get smiles and "Hi!"'s mostly from women. imho, it is a generally accepting place where I live (mid-size city, north of Seattle WA USA).

[Alexis2107]

I haven't had any problems, really.  I am always expected to get the surprised face when I have to out myself (like at government branches when changing name or other documents) but generally never any harsh reaction either way.

[Mister_Porter]

My personal experience has been FTM are more accepted until you say "I am a man".  That is when you get dismissed for being a deluded chick.

I can be myself quite easily.  Men kind of dig it. Never had a problem with my jobs, so I think it is easier for FTM until you go to the men's room or until you put "M" on a form.

[mac1]

My personal experience has been FTM are more accepted until you say "I am a man".  That is when you get dismissed for being a deluded chick.

I can be myself quite easily.  Men kind of dig it. Never had a problem with my jobs, so I think it is easier for FTM until you go to the men's room or until you put "M" on a form.

Shouldn't be that big of a problem in the men's room.  I have seen women use the men's room with men in there without a problem or recourse.

[enigmaticrorschach]

its all about superiority. males are viewed as the superior of the race, however since ancient times, women were even able to take down the gods with their charm in mythology. honestly, its a sensitive as well as a very complicated situation. from what i can see, there are a lot more males being born confused and its scaring society because because in politics, the ratio is 3 men to ever 1 women and because of the confusing, their losing their control and power. to maintain their power, they make mtf outcasts in society and want one of two things to happen, the MTF to completely give up the idea of wanting to transition or have them perish. for those who can pass easily, its a lot more easy to blend in but for those who need extensive work, its a living hell. as for FTM, females can pass as males without trying. now a days, your finding more tomboyish girls who prefer t wear jeans, baggy shirts and have the attitude of a male. because of this, society is more accepting of FTM because if they were to become males, the power shift would tip yet again back into the favor of the males, who consider themselves the most superior. its just in my opinion but thats basically the history of this world. 

[Ian68]

A little context, I'm a teen FTM.  I'm only out to a few people, mostly brothers' friends.  Still deciding whether it's worth it.

Society seems to be more comfortable with trans-men than with trans-women.

No disrespect to anyone.  From what I've seen, trans-women are very beautiful, refined, confident, etc.  Is it because straight cis-guys are nervous of how attractive trans-women can be? 

Is femininity "degrading" in some way?  A rough-and-tumble girl is better tolerated then, say, a boy who enjoys nail polish and clothes-shopping.
Thoughts?

You're exactly right.  This is also one of the reasons that I find it an imperative for transgender men to actively stand up for women's rights (because we get the privilege that allows us to do so).  Even though we are often not accepted as men, the fact that we are even seen as "masculine women" is attributed with being more capable because of pervasive sexism.  Additionally, cisgender men rarely see us as competition because *clearly* they are "superior" to us by virtue of being "real men."  When it comes to transgender women, however, cisgender men often become very uncomfortable because *oh my God, they might be attracted to someone who has the same sexual anatomy as them shock*!  It's all absolutely archaic and ridiculous.  That said, most people honestly don't care either way; it's just a small but vocal minority of people who are just bigoted idiots. 

The fundamental bases for transphobia are sexism and homophobia.  Femininity is de-valued by society, and masculinity is valued.  Women's bodies are often not seen as belonging to them but rather as being some commodity of pleasure for those attracted to them.  And the preoccupation with sexual orientation confuses and frightens people. 

[Atypical]

Well.

I'm very much against feminism and I don't agree with a lot of the assumptions that've been given here, but I'll say this:

I've been kicked out of a mall, beaten by a group and left bleeding on the street, sexually assaulted (not going into details, but it was bad and more than one situation) and shunned from help services. A few years back I was jumped and beaten so badly that I had four broken ribs, nearly punctured a lung and ended up in the hospital.

My experience there was having the doctors asking me what kind of body they were dealing with, shaking their heads at me and overall looking disgusted. When the police came in to talk to me about the assault I was strongly suggested to not press charges because being the 'type' that I am, it'd only cause me more problems.

Shortly after coming out of the hospital I developed pneumonia. I had nowhere to go because the people who put me in the hospital were the family of my girlfriend who I was staying with at the time (we were saving up to move to another state together). They shamed her once they found me out and she ceased to acknowledge my existence thereafter (even though she already knew I was trans).

So it was the dead of winter, I was sick and I found my way to a shelter. For women. They refused to let me in, of course.

I broke into an old shed and slept in there until I could get out of that godawful place.

Moral of the story? It's not about your sex/gender, it's about your environment and who you surround yourself with.

[graspthesanity]

I completely agree with Atypical. I've also faced serious issues in regards to society's bigotry about trans men, so no, I completely disagree with everything said before.

I think society has been more open towards trans women with the recent light of events that trans women have far more visibility in the media. Both face enormous hardships in life, but people mostly care about trans women issues these days. Don't get me wrong, but even the fact that I need to yell that I understand the issues trans women face every sentence in order to talk about trans men is already alarming.

Right now it's not trendy to support trans men, as it is trans women. Look at all the media, all we talk about is trans women and the face of trans issues is always a trans woman. What about agender people? What about NB people? What about trans men?

In general I don't like that it's a contest.

We all face serious problems and the fact that trans women yell that they're more oppressed to pull the blanket on their end isn't fair either.