Planet Fitness drops member after gender identity complaint (TW: Misgendering)

[awilliams1701]

If it was me in charge, I would settle some things, but not this. I will not settle for discrimination. I would take a stand on it. That's me though.

[Allison_andrea]

If it is needed PF would rather give this lady a settlement check than to run through the courts. I hate the idea of a settlement over something like this, though I would much rather see a settlement than to run/drag the Transwoman through any possible court litigation.

I honestly feel that if the lady who lost her membership is that irate over it go and join a fitness center like Golds as they do have a bit more strict policy from the last time I had seen.

[kittenpower]

I despise the use of the phrase, "moving forward." Especially in a news broadcast.

I'm tired of the phrase "in this economy", that's used in so many news broadcasts, as it tends to perpetuate negative thinking and depression.

[ImagineKate]

The woman is now suing PF for $25,000 because of the companies refusal to discriminate against this trans woman. This country is so F'd up.

You can sue anyone for anything. Does not mean you'll win. Her suit will most likely be tossed out.

[Jen72]

Without really knowing what happened all I can say is there is one thing missing in all of this. Common sense.

If you don't pass well I get that but if you don't pass well have hairy legs and a beard that's not even trying you should then use the mens bathroom. Of course it can be blurred for some that's where it gets tough but if the transgender person isn't trying to make a fuss in any way why should another as long as common decency and respect is followed. Yes I am pre everything really but I can see myself in that situation and if I didn't pass well then I wouldn't be really going out in public trying to pass well if that makes sense. Common decency from the other side of the person is at least semi passable it would be nice to assume that you could see the person is trying therefor don't make an issue. The whole big debate really is the peeping tom pervert problem and really if you put your selves in the position of the women and you look like a bearded lady for gods sake use the mens bathroom. But if you look clean shaven and at least perhaps wig/hair do that is feminine then that woman might look at you twice but most likely not omg there is a pervert in my midst.

In short how I feel is if you go to a public bathroom we the transgender have to think how others will react and choose with some common sense as to which bathroom. I would bet since we tend to be scared ourselves we would be choosing the most appropriate bathroom. We have to protect woman from perverts too not saying transgender are but the ones that pretend to be transgender will not likely have some things that show they are trying to pass all that well. One queue might be lack of pierced ears.

Just my opinion but we have to look on the other side too sadly we are the anomaly so we have to think of what position in best for everyone not just ourselves but of course it can get grey hence why we have to think which would be best.

As to the story itself it sounds to messed up to get the real story to make any real judgement either way so not judging what had transpired in the story itself.

[Beth Andrea]

The ideal "peeping Tom" would be a person who passes as their target gender.

Answer to this problem? Shower and change at home.

I do try to look passable, but even so I would not use either facility (m or f), because I still have the dangly stuff (no for lady's room), and I have some pretty good lookin' hooters (no for men's room).

Yes, its an inconvenience to me, but like Jen said, we do have to be somewhat sensitive to how others see us.

[Devlyn]

Jen, when you say trying, I assume you mean trying to be one binary gender or the other? That's a step backwards for someone like me. I can't say I like the idea of having to try hard enough (at being someone I'm not) to make someone else satisfied with me so that I can use a bathroom.

Hugs, Devlyn

[ImagineKate]

I don't think one has to pass to use the proper restroom. One should present as the proper gender but passing should not be a requirement. A lot of trans women and trans men simply do not pass. Should they use the men's room to be attacked?

Sensitive to how others see us? Some will never see us as our identified gender. Some view Laverne cox or even pretty trans women like princess joules as men. Why should I have to be sensitive to those people? If anything they need to be sensitive to me.

They key should always be intent. If someone intends to be a peeping Tom they should be ejected and possibly arrested. If someone just wants to pee there is no harm in letting them use the facility they identify with.

And for what it's worth I use the ladies. Period end of story.

[Jill F]

I don't think one has to pass to use the proper restroom. One should present as the proper gender but passing should not be a requirement. A lot of trans women and trans men simply do not pass. Should they use the men's room to be attacked?

They key should always be intent. If someone intends to be a peeping Tom they should be ejected and possibly arrested. If someone just wants to pee there is no harm in letting them use the facility they identify with.

And for what it's worth I use the ladies. Period end of story.

This is the thing- we can't have a separate law for those who "pass" and for those who don't so well.   The same laws must apply to everyone.

How about this novel proposal: We simply prosecute anyone who perpetrates an actual crime in a restroom.   Oh, wait...

[ImagineKate]

This is the thing- we can't have a separate law for those who "pass" and for those who don't so well.   The same laws must apply to everyone.

How about this novel proposal: We simply prosecute anyone who perpetrates an actual crime in a restroom.   Oh, wait...

I'm cool with that as well but I don't think I would be comfortable in a ladies room full of men. It's more than just crime. It's comfort and yes social norms.

[Jen72]

To answer you Devlyn in a way yes that Is what I was saying but more on the extreme in the sense that if you are dressed feminine you shouldn't have a beard if that makes sense. In a way we must choose a binary option since that is the choice presented isn't it boy bathroom or girl bathroom. If there was a universal option then no problem right. if you are more androgyness in presenting then that's different in the sense you are not an obvious say male in a dress peeping into the ladies room. I don't mean to judge but from the womens perspective if the person looks really male that screams pervert/peepeing tom and in a sense keeping those type out of the bathroom also protects transgender woman. However as others have stated if the person is there just to really use the bathroom as it is intended then they should choose one that is reasonably appropriate for privacy reasons for the whole.

Really what I am saying is it boils down to if you look that one way or the other then choose appropriate washroom. If you are more neutral in appearance then use discretion. By doing that not only do we make bathrooms safer for CIS women but also transgender women. Etiquette really and respect for the others and in return you should receive respect in kind. if androgyness in presentation perhaps some strange looks but might be just that and not omg its a guy in the ladies washroom.

Sorry if I didn't make it all to clear I don't mean to say one must fit exactly just try and fit into the one that is most appropriate. Yes it does suck to accommodate  others for our differences but if we don't then that means the creeps get free reign too.

FYI sorry if this seems mean spirited it is not intended just trying to look at the idea as a whole.

Just saying perverts belong on the outside and those may not pass that well but for transgender as long as we are respectful (which I would assume most really are) belong on the inside. The problem is intent is not something really visible some discretion and compromise to a degree must be used.

Sorry for long explanation got the sense my intent was misconstrued as offending and not what I intended what so ever.

[Myarkstir]

 

Ok people agree to disagree and move  on.

[suzifrommd]

To answer you Devlyn in a way yes that Is what I was saying but more on the extreme in the sense that if you are dressed feminine you shouldn't have a beard if that makes sense.

Jen, are you saying that in order to gain admittance to all-female spaces, you need to conform to society's standards of what a woman ought to look like? I.e. It's a free country to express yourself the way you want except gender presentation, which basically needs to be consistent?

Today, I've got several days beard stubble in advance of an electrologist. Some may call that a beard. Sure looks like one. Does that mean I'm not feminine enough to use an all female space? Which space should I use?

Some cis women are cursed with facial hair that approaches male levels. What if one of those folks gets tired of shaving? Should they be denied access to all-female spaces?

[Devlyn]

It just seems to me that people need to say "It doesn't matter to me who pees where" rather than any of us needing to win a beauty contest. As a community we are better served by demanding acceptance than sacrificing some of our own based on appearances. Unfortunately, many people here view using a public restroom as the Ultimate Passing Event. When we reinforce that by stating we will keep our less beautiful members out, we are going backwards.

Hugs, Devlyn

[Jen72]

Sorry just to clarify a bit better I don't mean bit of stubble while still presenting otherwise female. More in that case a full months growth obvious beard kind of thing the extreme really. I would guess that you may have some hair but not like ha ha rip van winkle beard or something silly hence why I meant if more androgyness using discretion. The discretion means that if you are really early on in transition and could easily still pass as maile and presenting as such then use the mens washroom however if the opposite well of course the females washroom. That is of course easy to figure the middle ground is well grey and harder to define hence when this occurs you use some common sense. The grey area if you will is hard but I would guess a big part is given you are in a more neutral presentation that you are less likely desire to draw attention.

Basically I am saying there are times when it is more black and white since there is not choice but two its the grey part that gets hard to figure. As I have stated its your discretion and common sense that should apply at least to some degree to protect the bathrooms from creeps in general. What it comes down to is call it a rule that need not be some law that dictates what common sense should work to alleviate most (not all) issues of preventing creeps out while letting trans in. Give a hypothetical instance and why its just fine. If transgender woman who like you said happens to have some hair isn't overly passable enters the womens bathroom is this a big deal. Well chances are the transgender woman is going in doing business and not trying to attract any attention with the intent of just using the washroom for its intent. Now if you take a creep lets say they are semi passable as well they also go into womens washroom yet they don't exactly walk in do their thing and leave they tend to hang around the sink or something which then draws attention to them therefor their intent Is way different.

Does that clarify were I sit I know its complicated in the grey areas hence using your own judgement the problem of course is others judgement that are in some cases not fair to say the least. But if you are using some discretion and common sense then it would smooth things over if possible. The but part is if In the extreme case that everyone is allowed in whatever bathroom by what they feel like not what they look like then that is a problem. Yet in the grey aspects as long as compromise, discretion, etiquette whatever you will is used that would help ease the tension on both sides.

Sorry I guess I was not clear on my intent as it is a complicated issue that really just needs decent thought on all parties concerned. Sadly of course that wont exist from everyone but if we do use some degree of discretion then things should be ok. I wont respond further if this is deemed offensive not my intent just seeing how the other side of the coin and ramifications of not using some rules could cause more problems then solve.

[Aazhie]

The problem with "no full beards in wimmen's room" idea is this:

My friend is genderqueer.  She is bio-female but wants to be on T- wants a beard and big hairy muscles.  BUT she isn't going to get surgery or bind.  She doesn't want to pass a man, her ideal is literally a bearded lady with masculine features.  So are we supposed to make her a "freaks only" restroom, or does she get to decide where it is safe for her to pee, like an adult, and other people can just do their business and get over it?

I can understand the 'safe zone' feeling of women's restrooms.  When I was alone at a truck stop in a rural place with big burly truckers I chickened out and used the ladies.  No binder or stubble but I still felt like a jerk, but it just did not feel safe for me to use the men's room looking outwardly a woman.  If it had been anywhere near home I would have probably just not been a coward about it, but across the country, in an unfamiliar and pretty middle of nowhere place (literally days worth of driving away from anyone I knew) it felt safer.  Anyone should be able to feel safe to pee.  If a transwoman needs to use a restroom, she should feel safe to use the ladies room.  It would certainly cut down on confusion if it were obvious, but I really don't see how that's a huge issue for me.  I have a good number of cis friends that would be able to pass wonderfully and can cross dress well.  Put them in the right hairstyle and outfit and they'd get funny looks in a bathroom too.  Bearded ladies exist too and personally I'd be happy for them to grow that out as much as they liked for all I care about how a person looks.  So long as everyone behaves respectfully- that is the important part.

The problem with the women complaining is she was discriminating.  Many businesses have the right to refuse service for any reason and she was giving them plenty. From the sound of itshe wasn't saying "there's a transwomen in the women' sroom"  she was saying "there's a MAN in the women's room."  Many ignorant people might not see a difference there but pretty sure we can all agree that there is a distinct difference between those two statements! It's a shame the lady who was outed had to suffer the spotlight for simply having the misfortune to be seen by an obnoxious cry-wolfer.

[Jen72]

I see your point and yes totally agree its like you said you used your judgement/discretion using womens washroom in the middle of nowhere. Perhaps that I used the beard idea was not exactly the best option and really I do mean how I assume you reacted in that situation was probably this. Hmm which bathroom eh better be womens safer get in and get out. Yes that is the most important part is the respectful intent of how you use the bathroom but I would like to point out is how would you react as a woman in the washroom seeing someone threatening or even not sure what they are up to enter a washroom. It is not immediately known to the viewer in that case to know what will happen therefor in a matter of a few seconds that person might see you are indeed there just to use bathroom as intended. Then again how does one view that strangely presenting person as not a threat versus a threat the only way is essentially like I have said discretion. Perhaps its walk in to bathroom and simply putting your head down as a sign of respect and sheepishly head to stall do your thing etc. Immediate reaction of course is from the viewer is an alarm bell that the person walking is a threat are they not once again discretion.

Of course I do understand the problem as it sits now is a societal one to a degree that needs to soften its view on it. Yet when can you say for sure of the intent that odd person walking towards you is? That is the hard question. The only way I see a fix is not a law just a matter of giving the women a heads up in someway that you are not a pervert and in fact there just to use the bathroom as such. On the flip side more tolerance to the situation but not a total acceptance without some protection from the creeps. Hence partially why a law was intended but laws are usually black and white without allowing the grey which is the problem in itself.

I hope my point which may seem counter to most is seen in that it not against anyone save the creeps/perverts and where the line is drawn as to whom may use what bathroom really comes down to common sense and discretion from both parties but we are the ones that must initiate the discretion first being viewed different. Does that mean we have to absolutely choose which one no it means giving a little extra respect to those in the bathrooms and in return we should receive respect in turn. That will take some time yet I would gather and perhaps in certain towns it already has some not at all.

My appologies I thought I wouldn't respond further but you did bring something to my attention that honestly I did not think of and thank you. I still stick with my intent until such time and getting there that things become more accepted societally but the only way to be accepted is giving a bit more respect then receiving until things truly change if that makes sense.