So what did Jesus mean in John 14:15-21,and HOW does this apply to us?

[SarahM777]

John 14

15 "If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

Jesus very clearly ties loving Him to obeying Him.

John then also writes this

1 John 2

3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister[c] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

So for us WHO SAY WE BELIEVE how do these apply to us?

[Lady Smith]

Mark 12: 30-31.  " 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'  The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Mark 12: 30-31 provides a key to John 14:15-21.  The commandments we are asked to keep are so simple a child could understand them.  Love G*d, love others as you'd want to be loved.  Loving Jesus is the same as obeying Him, there is no difference between them.  Unfortunately many folk who like to call themselves christians have forgotten this or never learned it in the first place.

1 John 2: 3-11 is based on the same simple two commandments given in Mark 12: 30-31.  No slight of hand, no tricks with mirrors.  Basic Christianity expressed in a more expanded form, but the meaning is exactly the same.

[SarahM777]

Mark 12: 30-31.  " 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'  The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Mark 12: 30-31 provides a key to John 14:15-21.  The commandments we are asked to keep are so simple a child could understand them.  Love G*d, love others as you'd want to be loved.  Loving Jesus is the same as obeying Him, there is no difference between them.  Unfortunately many folk who like to call themselves christians have forgotten this or never learned it in the first place.

1 John 2: 3-11 is based on the same simple two commandments given in Mark 12: 30-31.  No slight of hand, no tricks with mirrors.  Basic Christianity expressed in a more expanded form, but the meaning is exactly the same.

Agreed,But that should bode the question,How then do we who are transgendered in what ever manner live out our lives in FAITH and LOVE in and to God and to love the people around us?

[fennec-fox]

Agreed,But that should bode the question,How then do we who are transgendered in what ever manner live out our lives in FAITH and LOVE in and to God and to love the people around us?

The same way as anyone else. Treat others with kindness, respect, and compassion. That applies to everyone, regardless of gender identity, sexual orientation, race, class, religion, or anything else.

[BenKenobi]

I'm....not sure what is so complicated? I'm not trying to be rude, it's just that I'm trying to understand how that could be interpreted as anything else.

[SarahM777]

I'm....not sure what is so complicated? I'm not trying to be rude, it's just that I'm trying to understand how that could be interpreted as anything else.

Agreed,but those who say they are Christian  are also commanded to be HOLY and RIGHTEOUS.

1 Peter 1

13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."[a]

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

"All people are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25     but the word of the Lord endures forever."[c]
And this is the word that was preached to you.

Peter is expanding on this

Matthew 5

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So what does this mean to those of us who say we believe and love Jesus,when we are told to be Holy as God is Holy? It goes back to what Jesus said IF YOU LOVE ME you will KEEP and OBEY my commands. They are all TIED together. If we don't obey what He tells us then can we really say we LOVE HIM?

[SarahM777]

And Paul tells us this is what AGAPE LOVE does

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

[Lady Smith]

Agreed,but those who say they are Christian  are also commanded to be HOLY and RIGHTEOUS.

Yes that's true, but plainly there are plenty of folk who claim to be Christian who don't follow Christ's commandments.

(Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
Matthew 25: 44-45  And those will answer, and they will say, 'Our Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to you?'  Then he will answer and he will say to them, 'Amen, I say to you, as much as you have not done to one of these little ones, neither have you done that to me.'

Transgender Christians can be Holy and Righteous just the same as anyone else, or not just the same as anyone else.  There is nothing about being Transgender that prevents us from being sincere followers of Christ if that is what our heart is leading us to be.

[SarahM777]

Yes that's true, but plainly there are plenty of folk who claim to be Christian who don't follow Christ's commandments.

(Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
Matthew 25: 44-45  And those will answer, and they will say, 'Our Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to you?'  Then he will answer and he will say to them, 'Amen, I say to you, as much as you have not done to one of these little ones, neither have you done that to me.'

Transgender Christians can be Holy and Righteous just the same as anyone else, or not just the same as anyone else.  There is nothing about being Transgender that prevents us from being sincere followers of Christ if that is what our heart is leading us to be.

I do not disagree with what you are saying,what I am wondering is in the day to day living it out for us.

[FTMax]

What about being transgender do you find to be in contrast with being holy and righteous in God's eyes? Most of us here do not feel this way, so I'm interested to hear what you are so at odds with.

[SarahM777]

What about being transgender do you find to be in contrast with being holy and righteous in God's eyes? Most of us here do not feel this way, so I'm interested to hear what you are so at odds with.

It's the key that gets missed (And it's not just us that miss it,many others who say they are His do too)

1 John 4

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.


Agape love is Holy,righteous and perfect. Do we ever ask God to teach us to love as He first loved us? Love is what will remain and we as Christians are in training to LOVE as He first loved us.

Again Paul said this is what LOVE DOES

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Romans 13

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet,"[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

[King Malachite]

I think it applies to us in the same what the Bible would apply to cisgendered individuals.  We should strive to live our lives out as men and women of God as such.

[SarahM777]

I think it applies to us in the same what the Bible would apply to cisgendered individuals.  We should strive to live our lives out as men and women of God as such.

And how is that  shown that we are His?

John 13

31 When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now the Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him,[c] God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

33 "My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.

34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Love is the evidence that is one is Jesus disciple. It comes full circle. Love is the fruit fruit of the Spirit

Galatians 5

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

[King Malachite]

It seems pretty clear to me?   

[Lady Smith]

Sarah, you've quoted nearly all of my favourite verses from the New Testament and I have no arguement with any of them.  However I'm still unsure what point you are attempting to make.

[Lady Smith]

I do not disagree with what you are saying,what I am wondering is in the day to day living it out for us.

In the day to day living of the Christian life there are always going to be challenges.  At the present time some Coptic Christians are getting their heads cut off simply because they are Christian which deeply wounds my heart.  I know Transgender folk are getting a rough ride from 'fundamentalist' Christians (how I dislike that word) at the moment, but then on the other hand Jesus never promised us it was going to be easy.  That is why love and the quality of spiritual love is so emphasised  in the New Testament.  Without love we are nothing and life isn't worth living.

[SarahM777]

Sarah, you've quoted nearly all of my favourite verses from the New Testament and I have no arguement with any of them.  However I'm still unsure what point you are attempting to make.

The question I think I am trying to get to is if we do love our brothers and sisters,do we really seek out their forgiveness for the harm we have caused them by the things we have done and said because of being trans. (Not that,that in and of itself is wrong it's not) Do we forgive them for the things they also have done and said or do we hold on to those things and continue to hold a grudge? Or does love cover a multitude of sins? I know because of this I have lied to those around me trying to be something I wasn't,I have taken and used things that did not belong to me without permission,I used my late wife as a way to hide these things,etc,etc etc. I know I am not alone in that. Part of loving others is to try to make those things right. Do we do it?

[FTMax]

The question I think I am trying to get to is if we do love our brothers and sisters,do we really seek out their forgiveness for the harm we have caused them by the things we have done and said because of being trans. (Not that,that in and of itself is wrong it's not) Do we forgive them for the things they also have done and said or do we hold on to those things and continue to hold a grudge? Or does love cover a multitude of sins? I know because of this I have lied to those around me trying to be something I wasn't,I have taken and used things that did not belong to me without permission,I used my late wife as a way to hide these things,etc,etc etc. I know I am not alone in that. Part of loving others is to try to make those things right. Do we do it?

I have done nothing that I feel requires forgiveness in terms of being trans. I would never apologize to someone for the fact that I exist as I do. This is the way I was made.

You should forgive everyone. You should love everyone. You shouldn't judge people. You should apologize when your behavior warrants it (but not for intrinsic parts of who you are that are not changeable). And those who follow the word of God should extend the same things to you, as He commands.

It seems to have less to do with being transgender and more so how you have acted as a result of the condition and the social stigmas it has held in the past and present. You chose to behave the way you did. You should apologize, and if they are Christian people, they should forgive you.

[Lady Smith]

Yes Sarah we try to do our best to make peace with others.  I have two brothers, they hate me and wish I was dead.  I have done my best to make peace with them, but finally had to walk away and leave them to it.  My children had a rough time when I came out and started to live as myself, but when I tried to apologise to them years later when they were young adults they told me it was fine and not to worry about it.

A few years ago we had a parish priest who knew I was TG and wasn't worried about it in the slightest.  I made a very lengthy and tearful confession in his presence finally getting all manner of things I wasn't very proud of off my chest.  In short Sarah we do what we can to put right what we are able to put right, but sometimes we can't and we just have to leave that with G*d.

[SarahM777]

I have done nothing that I feel requires forgiveness in terms of being trans. I would never apologize to someone for the fact that I exist as I do. This is the way I was made.

You should forgive everyone. You should love everyone. You shouldn't judge people. You should apologize when your behavior warrants it (but not for intrinsic parts of who you are that are not changeable). And those who follow the word of God should extend the same things to you, as He commands.

It seems to have less to do with being transgender and more so how you have acted as a result of the condition and the social stigmas it has held in the past and present. You chose to behave the way you did. You should apologize, and if they are Christian people, they should forgive you.

I am complete agreement with this.