America's Next Top Model Comment

[Nero]

I'm sitting here watching Tyra's America's Next Top Model. I guess it's reruns. I don't know.
So, the judges are commenting on the models, and the drag queen judge says 'Jade is so ->-bleeped-<-. And I love that!'  The model isn't trans.
What do you suppose he meant?

[karmatic1110]

Thats statement is rather confusing.  Now I am going to be thinking about it all day trying to decifer it. 

The only thing I can think of is that the fashion industry has a stereotype of how a transsexual looks and she exibits some of those qualities? 

Who knows...

Charlotte

[SarahFaceDoom]

Wow.  I always found the Next Top Model Model's to be kind of big, compared to actual real fashion models.  I mean if you compare what's in Vogue with what's on that show, then Tyra is definitely making a move away from the bony skinny fashion model, however incremental that may be.

[SarahFaceDoom]

It's not pathetic, I watch the show a lot actually.  Just all the seasons run together.  I never really thought of Jade as skinny.  Like she may be sort of thin.  But like....she looks curvaceous compared to the top models in Vogue:



Maybe because I am really skinny myself, and not all that shapely, I internalize the whole attacks on the model industry, which is the one made swatch of women that I actually make me feel normal(they are tall like me, some have big feet like me, and they don't have huge curves like me).

I mean if you want women with curves, you have the entire porn industry, and swimsuit and victoria secret models.

[SarahFaceDoom]

Yeah but then there is the other side of the coin of girls who are told they are anorexic and that they don't eat enough, when they just have a different body type.

Honestly, given the obesity rates in this country, I think the reason there is such a focus on hating skinny women right now is because a segment of the population is overweight and doesn't want to admit it.

Frankly, instead of focusing on changing model's looks, we should look to make more women role models, so that more young women don't have to feel like their worth is solely tied up in how they look.  Men don't have that problem.  Slobs like Kevin Smith and Seth Rogen can be raging successes both behind and in front of the camera.  But where are the women equivalents?

The whole eating disorders caused by looking at fashion models, is something of a red herring I think, and distracts from the larger problem.

Go on myspace and look at the "Heroes" section.  Most Men have it filled with celebs, great thinkers, and artists.  Most women name their mother or grandmother.  And that's almost directly due to a dirth of female role models.  And it's not because they aren't out there.  It's just because we're letting men run society, and skew a woman's worth towards how much she appeals to a man.

[Nero]

Frankly, instead of focusing on changing model's looks, we should look to make more women role models, so that more young women don't have to feel like their worth is solely tied up in how they look.   It's just because we're letting men run society, and skew a woman's worth towards how much she appeals to a man.

True. And strong, successful women, even in politics have their appearance scrutinized. Their haircut and fashion style makes the news instead of their agenda. A woman's appearance is given so much more weight than her intelligence or achievements. Young girls feel worthless if they're not what society views as 'pretty.' It's degrading, really.

[SarahFaceDoom]

Go on myspace and look at the "Heroes" section.  Most Men have it filled with celebs, great thinkers, and artists.  Most women name their mother or grandmother.  And that's almost directly due to a dirth of female role models.  And it's not because they aren't out there.  It's just because we're letting men run society, and skew a woman's worth towards how much she appeals to a man. BTW, the person we're talking about isn't named Jade, her name is Jaslene, and she did win last season's ANTM.

Whatever, we clearly disagree, and I doubt we're going to ever agree on this. It is what it is. So I'm going to stop engaging in that little discussion.

Wait....What?  I didn't write that part about Jade and Jaslene.  You brought up Jade, so I was talking about Jade.  Like I said, I watch the show out of order on reruns, so though I thought Jade was an older winner, I was like....whatever.  But yeah, Jaslene was one of the first winners who actually looked like almost a top model.  I was going to try and compare her to top american fashion models, but then I remembered there's not really that many of them.  Most of the top models are canadian or european or even australian.

I don't know if you've ever seen those youtube videos about like women in film, women in art.  But it's interesting to see how for the last 15 years american beauty has become more and more of a mass market LCD type of thing.  Like we're getting more and more cookie cutter in the "beauty" we "produce".  And the side affect of that is, that we're falling behind in artistic mediums that favor uniqueness in terms of the beauty aesthetic.  Which isn't to say there aren't a wide variety of women in america in terms of looks, just that we're uncessarily narrowing the field in terms of options.  So I find fashion models a welcome change from the typical blonde sex-bots you see in hollywood all the time right now.

I mean, when Keira Knightley does pictures in america, they add two cup sizes to her bust.  Versus in europe where they don't.

I feel like the direction of american society is being more skewed towards pin-ups, not the ghostly androgeny that dominates the cat walks.

I think a lot of young women mention their mothers and grandmothers because they're close to them, appreciate what they've given them in life and the sacrifices they've made. Many women admire their mother's strength, even if they've faught with them in past. Women, in general, value those kinds of interpersonal connections more than men do. I see that as a wonderful thing, not a shame. I feel the same way about my grandmother.

Yes, girls need all the positive role models they can get in a wide variety of arenas. Media has a strong responsibility to expose society to a broad spectrum of people who are making a difference in this society, not just rich people and people in power. I think that's an issue that's way beyond the scope of a goofy show like ANTM.

There have been some young women on ANTM like Yoanna House, and YaYa who are incredible role models for girls and many others who are on the show because they're snotty and selfish and that makes for entertaining reality shows. And the reality is, very few of the girls on ANTM have ever gone on to top echelon modeling careers and even fewer ever ended up working in the world of high fashion.

Gina M.

I think Tyra Banks is a decent role model.  Or is well on the way towards being one.  Unfortunately at best she'll just be filling the void Oprah leaves when Oprah is done.  Not really giving more options.

Tina Fey is a shot in the right direction too.  That her and Sarah Silverman both have successful shows is a good thing.

But like why isn't Kathleen Hanna talked about in the same hallowed voices as Chuck D?  Y'know?  I'd like to see us make more strides in mainstream music.  Like so we can have our Dylan, Beatles, Rolling Stones type of clique.

And then politically while we're gaining ground, we're still so far behind in terms of having our best thinkers representing us and getting our voice heard.

[SarahFaceDoom]

There are a lot of women in music who are incredibly talented. Unfortunately, radio stations (even for female-targeted stations) tend to emphasize a lot of male performers over female ones. So much of it has to do with who has the power to distribute media on a large scale.

Gina M.

Yep.

[no_id]

Somehow 'models are too skinny' debates always make me sigh since they seem inaccurate.
Fashion handles standards, true (these were set in Paris half 20th centruy if I'm correct), but Fashion is a broad industry with a very diverse company. However, Fashion is Art, Fashion is Clothes; a vision; an artistic representation.
On the catwalk it is about clothes, not about the model; the model is simply a tool in order to present the pieces according to the designer's vision. In a way you can resemble them to a canvas. You don't tell a painter that he can only paint on one sort of canvas; and canvas as well come in various standard-sizes -- the painter chooses the size that best suits his vision. It's the same with models: who can sell the clothes best; who can bring it to life.

To blame everything on the media seems rather silly since would you really think the media would have jumped on the topic had a large group of people not yip-yapped about how skinny models are? Otherwise, there's a simple flawed perception on Fashion when individuals rather see the model than the pieces; there's an incorrect focus.
Most likely some remember how at last year's Madrid Fashion Show models with a body index below eighteen were rejected/shunned from the catwalk. In my opinion this was ridiculous; a body index below eighteen does not mean the model in question is unhealthy; they'd rather reject those who were unhealthy. Additionally, it does give off a vibe of Positive Action; those least responsible for past wrongs are the ones to suffer, and reminded of censorship when artists (read: designers) were restricted in giving their vision body.


Nevertheless, back to the initial topic: Jade called ->-bleeped-<-.
It's rather funny, since if anyone remembers; Kim was continuesly called Androgynous while she really struck me more as a 'tomboy'. 'Androgynous' was based on her appearance. When we apply this to Jade we have; a female with a strong bone structure and quite a few masculne features wearing women's clothes. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

[no_id]

You can't separate the model on the catwalk from the clothes. Why do you think they hire really expensive models for NY fashion week? The catwalk is about fantasy and projecting yourself onto the models and clothes and making you want the entire package.

Why do you think these models are expensive? The NY Fashion Week is one of the largest events in the Fashion quadrant. Naturally good designers show their work through good models. The catwalk is about Fashion, yet can paint work without a canvas? I don't think so[...] The full package is necessary to present a vision. Though as I said before: the model is a tool.

That's because most MEDIA covers the models more than the fashion. Yes, in Elle or Marie Claire you see the fashion emphasized (less so in the US editions) but the media that most people consume are more interested in Naomi Campbell or Kate Moss and how messed up they are this week. Fashion is a commodity and the way that commodity is sold is through the media. Whatever view you have of fashion is filtered through the media's lens.

Wait, I thought media covered famous people?...
A model can be a famous person, so can be an actor: they're famous people -- media covers famous people.
Kate Moss isn't Fashion. Fashion is Fashion. Fashion is Art. As I said:  there's a simple flawed perception on Fashion when individuals rather see the model than the pieces; there's an incorrect focus, and more frustrating: there is a stereotypical image (gag-worthy). If there's anyone to blame it isn't the information provider, it's the recipent, and to some degree the noise in the communication process (which can be viewed as both one-way and two-way). When it comes to Fashion as a product: Media functions as a medium (magazine-wise), but I have to agree, in the style of the communication guru (global village) that the medium can be the message. However, that's a whole different discussion on its own.

That decision was based on a model who died due to her thinness. Try telling her parents and friends it was ridiculous.

Either you are twisting my words or didn't understant my initial point.
Declining healthy models with a body index below eighteen: ridiculous.
Stating anorexia is ridiculous: ridiculous.
However, to push the Fashion Industry forward as the responsible one, and victimising it by completely disregarding the genetic markers for anorexia, and also not putting question marks at why this friend and those parents or an outside source never decided to ring the alarm bell by informing those who could have helped her: ridiculous.

Okay, Jade was never called a '->-bleeped-<-', J. Alexander made a comment about Jaslene (who won last season) having certain ->-bleeped-<--ish aspects to the way she presents herself.

Ah right, Jade was called a Dragqueen.

Kim was a dyke, so somehow, they had to comment about her supposed 'androgynousness'. I didn't find her androgynous in the least. Her bone structure was very soft (maybe too soft for a high fashion model) and compared to some people like Carrie Dee (the winner two seasons ago) she looked positively girly. To put it in perspective, famous trans model from the 80s, Teri Toye, was often referred to as adrogynous even though there was nothing especially 'hard' looking about her. Guess why they said that?

Well, at least we agree on one point

[SarahFaceDoom]

That's because most MEDIA covers the models more than the fashion. Yes, in Elle or Marie Claire you see the fashion emphasized (less so in the US editions) but the media that most people consume are more interested in Naomi Campbell or Kate Moss and how messed up they are this week. Fashion is a commodity and the way that commodity is sold is through the media. Whatever view you have of fashion is filtered through the media's lens.

You should get Vogue.  It's a lot better than Elle.  You don't have to catch up on Lindsay Lohan's exploits, but you get to see a lot more fashion, and articles about books.  Neither Naomi Campbell or Kate Moss are really top runway models anymore.  The top model right now is probably Gemma Ward, but maybe not even her anymore.  I'm behind.  And like how many little girls even know who Gemma Ward even is?  But I bet all of them know who Lindsay Lohan and Nicole Ricci are.  I don't think today's fashion is at all about making superstar models.  We might just be starting to pull into a new era.  But for the most part for awhile there hasn't been that many new supermodels.  All of the ones with shows are like 15 to 20 years removed from being of significance.  And many of them are underwear models, not fashion ones.