What should you do if your son says he's a girl?

[suzifrommd]

What should you do if your son says he's a girl?

By Eric Vilain, J. Michael Bailey
5/21/15

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-vilain-transgender-parents-20150521-story.html#

It seems you have two choices. You could insist that he is a boy and try to put an end to behaviors such as cross-dressing and saying that he is a girl. The alternative is to let him be a girl: grow long hair, choose a new name, dress as he (or "she") pleases, and when it is time, obtain the necessary hormones and surgeries for a female body.

As scientists who study gender and sexuality, we can tell you confidently: At this point no one knows what is better for your son.

=================
TRIGGER WARNING: This is a very literate, scientifically worded defense of the Zucker approach of ridding trans kids of their gender-variant behavior. I posted it because we should know what is being said about us in a mainstream, popular news publication.

I've seen their 80% figure other places. Anyone know what study it comes from?

[Eva Marie]

*Sigh*.... so much wrong with that article.

It is apparent to me that it is written from the perspective of promoting what the parent wants and ignoring what the child is telling the parent. It also throws a healthy dose of parental skepticism onto the child which is not what a kid experiencing GD needs.

While its true that a few kids experiment with gender blending and then grow up with their gender & body in alignment it is also true that some kids know from an early age that they are different. Ignoring the second group of kids by forcing them to fit into the first group of kids is wrong - it's the old "they'll grow out of it" position. Many of us experienced this attitude from our parents and society and it led to a life of denial, shame, substance abuse, bullying, depression, and ultimately a transition later in life, most likely wrecking a marriage in the process. And there are the people that didn't make it that far because they became hopeless and checked themselves out of life.

It's one thing to not understand us, but it's quite another to claim to understand us without listening to what we have to say. Its arrogant. People like Zucker and McHugh are guilty of doing just that.

What should you do if your child tells you something like this? The same as you do for any medical situation involving your child - you believe your child and you seek qualified medical help. If the help you receive doesn't feel right/is not working you find different help.

[traci_k]

What should you do if your child tells you something like this? The same as you do for any medical situation involving your child - you believe your child and you seek qualified medical help. If the help you receive doesn't feel right/is not working you find different help.

I don't know where the 80% comes from either but Dr Ann Vitale PhD (not to be confused with Anne Lawrence) a transwoman herself with a practice in transgender psychology does say some do outgrow.

So, what to do? As Eva suggests, believe your child and seek help.

Let's take Max, for example, from the article, at age 5 claims to be a girl. Why not let him be who he wants to be, if he grows out of it fine, but if at age 10 or 11 persists in claiming he's a girl, think about puberty blockers to delay onset and provide more time to grow out of the belief if it's going to happen.  WPATH guidelines talk about a two year persistent claim of being the other gender. By age 15, the child has 10 YEARS of persistent feelings, and hasn't outgrown the cross-gender belief, think about puberty inducing cross-hormone therapy. By age 18 the child is old enough, and should be secure enough to decide upon surgery.

And what if Max is Max some days and Maxine others? Why must the child be forced to accept the gender binary. There is enough evidence that gender is a spectrum, not a rigid binary. The child could be non-ninary. Trying to force someone to be who they are not, does as Eva pointed out, as I will too, to shame, self-loathing, substance abuse and potentially worse.

The key is to believe your child and seek out qualified help. This isn't rocket science.

[Devlyn]

It was an opinion piece, I assign that value to it. Not a doctor, not an agency. Just someone who writes letters to the editor.

[traci_k]

Devlyn, while it is an Op-Ed, they do claim to be "scientists who study gender and sexuality". And they do admit confidently, "At this point no one knows what is better for your son." and that the studies they are looking at are out of date. Still, they are trying to claim some authority over that which they're writing.

[Julia-Madrid]

Devlyn, while it is an Op-Ed, they do claim to be "scientists who study gender and sexuality". And they do admit confidently, "At this point no one knows what is better for your son." and that the studies they are looking at are out of date. Still, they are trying to claim some authority over that which they're writing.

This piece is light, despite being very subtly biased.  But, without citing any studies in detail, it's impossible to know how relevant any studies have been.  I sense that proper scientific study and long-term follow-up of dysphoric kids is probably very thin on the ground. 

[Laura_7]

"At this point no one knows what is better for your son."

This is simply not true.

If a child likes to draw do people ask them to swim because its socially more acceptable ?

Children have their preferences and traits.
I personally for example don't like if parents treat their kids like they would have liked it in their youth.
Kids are individual. Some need more freedom, some are sensitive, etc.

A good gender therapist can help them find out who they are and help them along. If they are not helpful look for another.

[katrinaw]

Hmm, there are elements of assumptions, but blatantly escapes overall GID patterns IMHO.

Many of us have these childhood desires, some us, because of time and family position deny ourselves of true happiness to support family beliefs and public awkwardness. There are children that fall into two groups, highly motivated or lets try and see, and maybe the third group are the ones that were only growing up and exploring.

So lets look at the first group, these are the kids that are highly motivated, dysphoria is extreme and suicidal tendencies will prevail, these kids are aggressive, will explode at any element of control over their basic desires and drivers.
The second group, where I sort of fit are the ones where there is no suicidal or explosive driver to being what you deeply want, but are passive about it. For me I never doubted who I was, I had dysphoria over male organs and clothing and toys, but was limited and did not want to rock the boat, but I never lost my desire or urge!
So the difference is in identifying type 1 or type 2.... It comes down to levels of depression brought on by dysphoria. So next point is that how many parents would take their children to a gender specialist or a psychiatrist? Unless a parent is aware, or been there... Their natural path is family dr then psychiatrist...
So what parents don't understand is that by denying their kids proper analysis, potentially they are pushing the problem to teen or adulthood or pushing their kids down a depression path. I was on the cusp of the two types, sometimes my Dysphoria was bad other times not so bad, I learned to ride it out, but never lost sight, one day was always my belief.. Just taken a huge number of one days.
So had I pushed my parents hard? I think I could have been mis diagnosed or worse, not here today.
So clearly there are a number of factors, all of these need to be observed, maybe as parents have kids they should be alerted to signs and condition and resources to help them. Drs need to be educated to send the children to Gender specialists first, then other options after.... We have come a long, long way, but through lack of understanding, possibly generated by bigotry or phobia's we are still at stage 1 or 1.5. If a kid makes it through childhood or has sensitive parents they stand the best chance of survival, or its, based on survival into teen or adulthood to drive your right outcomes, often again with potential dire consequences!

All these initiatives are done with good intent, as understood by the beholder, but they are token and do not address root issues IMHO.

L Katy

[Devlyn]

Devlyn, while it is an Op-Ed, they do claim to be "scientists who study gender and sexuality". And they do admit confidently, "At this point no one knows what is better for your son." and that the studies they are looking at are out of date. Still, they are trying to claim some authority over that which they're writing.

You said it for me, they're trying to claim some authority. So is the old geezer who writes to the mayor because kids are on his lawn. This piece is meaningless unless we assign some credibility to it. I won't.

Hugs, Devlyn

[marsh monster]

Bailey is heavily biased against trans people. May as well put Ablow up there as an expert on it.

[Obfuskatie]

It's ironic that the op-ed writer is Eric Vilain, so close to villain. Silliness aside, the studies for children that "grow out of it" are collected through the people who practice the Zucker method. The flaw being the statistics are biased to include only those observed by physicians practicing reparative therapy. Zucker has also stated that it's better to allow a boy to transition to being a girl if it's suspected that he'll be gay otherwise. How he determines this, heavens knows, but he published a homophobic statement in 2007ish to this effect. (It was in the 130pg release by the APA that discussed the upcoming change in the DSM V reclassifying GID to Gender Dysphoria.) He stated his goal was to minimize the negative social influences.
There is no actual statistic that can encompass a population with an unknown size. 80% of the people that claim to be experts who don't include citations for their statistics, are lying. I can make up numbers too! [emoji12]


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stephaniec]

this is exactly the problem I have. I started at 4 years old to try to be who I really was. Given the time I grew up in the 50's it's probably a good idea that as far as I know my parents didn't seek professional help because I probably would of been through a lot of torcher to change my behavior . Not only was I a severe cross dresser at such a young age I was also basically a mute. I never talked to anyone until high school. they would of experimented on me like a lab rat. Thank God my parents didn't go that route. I don't know the answer because it's such a difficult thing because of socialization. I wish I could of just lived my life as a girl from kindergarten forward , but my parents did their best at the time. They tried to socialize me as a male , but they didn't use brute force they just tried to help even though being a male wasn't the route I wanted to go. I use to walk around the neighborhood holding my boy friends hand at age 6 and everyone knew it so my mother came up to me one day and told me that I wasn't to see my friend anymore. That lasted a couple of days until he told me to come with him and my mother never mentioned it again. My parents were very loving, but they didn't understand my problem and it wasn't their fault. No one understood. I went to a catholic grade school and looking back it was so obvious I had some severe issues going on in my brain , but they had no idea how to help. Honestly likes others on this site I suffered terribly in my early youth and my whole adult life because I couldn't get the proper help. signs are good that things are changing though.

[Asche]

I did not read the linked article.  From the comments, I'd guess that I would have been very, very triggered by it.  I've suffered plenty of harm in my life from people who couldn't be bothered to find out what was really going on with me (that includes pretty much all the adults in my life before I was 18) and did awful stuff supposedly for my own good.

It may be that these people are credentialled scientists.  That doesn't mean that their "research" is any good.

For one thing, there's a lot of bad and even fraudulent science out there, most of which doesn't get found out unless someone has a reason and the resources to examine it closely.

For another, particularly in the social sciences, there's a tendency to design studies and interpret the results in a way that confirms what the researchers already believed.  No one is free of the preconceptions of the society they grow up in, and few people (scientists included) do the hard work to even be aware of them.  Some of the studies I've heard of are real howlers.

[Obfuskatie]

Not only are many of the studies flawed, their coverage is where a lot of editorializing and interpretation detract from any useful bits of data might've been collected. In stories about racial minorities, the media typically doesn't stage a debate between Klansmen and Cultural Anthropologists. It mystifies me that there is a forum for TERF, or any other bigoted group vs Trans advocates. Real discussions are ignored in favor of debating legitimacy and fear-mongering. [emoji35]


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[michelle]

When it comes to children, there usually are two parents involved even if the parents aren't together.    So asking what you would do has to depend upon getting both of the parents to agree on how to deal their son saying that she is a girl.   Being a transsexual woman, my point of view is that the child should be allowed to follow his or her feelings.   After all rough and tumble boys would find traditional girls' toys from my day restrictive, confining and boring.   However the child might feel like a girl, but be a Tom boy, so you have to be open with that.   When I grew up I did not feel that there was any space to explore my gender identity, and it took 53 years and my family to fall apart and living alone for me to feel free to explore my femininity in and around my home.  I wouldn't want this for my child.   However, my children's cis mothers would probably not go for letting our child dress in a feminine way, and would probably blame me for our boy saying that, she is a girl.   Is is a linking verb so the object being girl requires a female pronoun as the subject.   Me being an elementary teacher is playing into this discussion.    So for this just to be between me and my son, his mother would have to be pushing up daisies or a colonist on the planet Mars.    With this in mind it creates another problem which I would not create and that would be the parents enveloping the child in one of their very emotional battles and totally disregarding the child's feelings.   For our son to be able to act upon his/her feelings about being a girl,  it would be best if his mother believed it was her idea and not mine.

[suzifrommd]

Should Freedom Require Scientific Proof?

By Suzi Chase on May 26th, 2015

https://www.susans.org/2015/05/26/freedom-require-scientific-proof/

Whether someone is "allowed" to live as their gender is not a question of medical treatment backed by scientific findings. It is a question of freedom.

Gender expression is as much a right as any other expression. The notion of relying on scientific evidence to determine whether freedom of speech is healthy or unhealthy would be patently absurd. Did we consult doctors and scientists to figure out whether women should vote or children attend racially integrated schools? If scientific evidence showed us that religious observance had negative health effects, or that people lived longer in places without free press, would we take away those rights?

[iKate]

I don't doubt that some people grow out of it. I thought I'd grow out of it too, but that never happened.

[rachel89]

Gender non-conformity and gender dysphoria are two different animals.  Lots of children children display gender non-conformity once in a while but go on to be cisgender heterosexual adults. Then there are children who frequently display gender non-conforming behavior. There is a pretty good chance that these children will turn out to be gay, but some might be trans.* There children with gender dysphoria, who insist they are "in the wrong body" and experience a lot of distress because of it.  I don't think cis-gender people who are gay  experience gender dysphoria, despite gender non-conforming behavior, so medical interventions aren't really even issue here. They should just be allowed to be themselves. Children with gender dysphoria need to be given the appropriate medical treatments, it doesn't just magically go away, it just comes back again later in life, where transition involves more painful procedures and outcomes are not as good. I think it is cruel to stop gender non-conforming cis-gender children from fully expressing themselves, but it is dangerous for a child with gender dysphoria.

[Alana_Jane]

Strange Bedfellows Perpetuate the Denial of Proper Care for Young Trans Girls

Dana Beyer
Posted: 05/28/2015

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-beyer/strange-bedfellows-perpetuate-the-denial-of-proper-care-for-young-trans-girls_b_7463428.html?utm_hp_ref=transgender

This entire approach is built on a single assumption -- that it is worse for a boy to live as a girl for a period of time and then return to live as a boy (desistence) than to deny a trans girl her freedom to determine her life according to her wishes. That denial is cruel and unusual punishment and should be viewed as unconstitutional under the Eighth Amendment. I wouldn't be surprised if those parents, who struggled to set their trans (or gay, for that matter) children "straight" before becoming enlightened and letting their children be themselves, wouldn't wholeheartedly agree.

The saddest part is that we know the consequences of denying transition -- an epidemic of suicides that have been occurring in the trans community since at least the '60s, and continue to this day in what seems ever-increasing numbers. What we have not seen is any significant number of children who detransition and then either kill themselves from shame or bullying, or live lives tainted by the cross-gender living experience. This tells me that those who oppose gender transition in children, however rationally framed, do so out of misogyny.

====================
There's also a Huff-post on this as well: 

As many here I was also not extremely disphoric child.  I knew there was a mismatch, but didn't know how or what to do to resolve it, and expressed this to my mother.  As I grew into young adult, I learned about the transsexual path, but the social stigma and isolation again convinced me to just bury it.  Part of me blames this on having grown up with rural US heath care with a decided lack of medical choice and experience.  I thank God that I wasn't the extremely disphoric child as there really wasn't the support or outlet, and just changing school districts isn't an option.   I suppose skype therapy session might be a viable solution that just wasn't available then. 

-Alana 

[suzifrommd]

Thanks for finding this Alana. A very interesting and persuasive read. Beyer is a physician (retired, I think), so he's looking at it from a therapeutic point of view but he still brings in a human rights element. He's apparently more comfortable telling it like it is about J.M. Bailey.