One year post op on Yeson and unhappy

[seattlesarah]

Thanks for the reply Anjaq, and ReDuckscwho I can't reply to in personal messages (I don't have access).

Firstly I better clear up that I'm not living in Seattle (it is my spiritual home, god I love that city), and my real name isn't Sarah. I didn't want to use my real details here since the forum is so public.

My pre-op speaking fundamental frequency was 135hz untrained, about 175 trained and relaxed, about 205 when super concentrating, e.g. on the phone to a stranger. I hadn't been misgendered on the phone in 6 years and I was stealth from 2010-2015, I came out this year for various reasons. My old range was E2-G4 chest (strained sounding after E4), C4-B5 falsetto (I could push falsetto down into chest voice range). My falsetto always sounded male no matter what and due to vocal cord damage I couldn't access much of it. I couldn't do blended voice at all. My chest voice could sound female down to quite a low pitch, say 150hz, because I learned to control resonance and have a sing song vocal style.

4 months post op my range is G2 or A3 depending on the day, up to G4. My blended voice goes up to C5. My falsetto goes up to B6 but is only good for anything other than squealing up to about G5.

I feel that both blend (which I couldn't do before the op) and falsetto sound fake/male.

I measure my post-op not-thinking-about-it pitch at between 160hz and 176 hz depending on day. Yeson says the last sample I sent them measures at 244hz fundamental frequency - I measure it at 176 with praat. I asked them to double check they had the correct file and recheck the measurements but they say they are correct and that praat isn't as sophisticated as their program. It really does not sound like a 244hz voice.

Today I discovered something after posting. I have been struggling with croakiness since the op, and this weekend it got really bad because I was out all day in noisy shops with my mum talking constantly. My throat became tight like there were hands clasped around it.

It's been really bad since - croaky and tight. Today I tried consciously lifting my pitch - and the raspiness goes away significantly when I do! Maybe I am straining my voice by speaking too low, even though that's where my voice gravitates to?

So I'm consciously raising the pitch to the top end of my chest voice and accessing falsetto or blend (hard to control for me when jumping up into it from chest voice randomly, easy to do when going up a scale) when I need to go up from there. The resulting average pitch is 215-240hz, close to what Yeson said. To my ear it sounds fake, speaking up there, and I feel very conscious of the transitions between voice types - this doesn't have the feeling of freedom I expect cis women must have with their voices. I don't know if this is what Dr Kim meant by the brain needing to get used to the hew equipment - that it will feel fake for a while - but I thought we weren't supposed to actively try to raise the pitch and let it find its own level?

I'm going to try keeping the pitch raised for a few days to see if the croakiness reduces.

Anjaq I was given two alternative drugs to take by Jesse but both have bad side effects and I'm just not willing to put myself through it again. I offered to get another Botox shot but after listening to my file they said the massages and water would be enough.

However this turns out I'm not getting the freedom from the pitch ceiling on my head voice that I hoped for before the op. I was hoping to be able to get up to A5 without strain. If that was an unrealistic expectation, ten let me be a lesson to others about what this operation can't do for you. At the end of the day I still feel like I am dealing with male vocal equipment.

[Teslagirl]

However this turns out I'm not getting the freedom from the pitch ceiling on my head voice that I hoped for before the op. I was hoping to be able to get up to A5 without strain. If that was an unrealistic expectation, ten let me be a lesson to others about what this operation can't do for you. At the end of the day I still feel like I am dealing with male vocal equipment.

Sarah, can you post a voice sample?

[anjaq]

Hi "Sarah"

Much of what you describe rings a bell in me. I think we have similar starting points and similar issues with the voice now. I was at about 110-130 Hz untrained pre op and at about 140-160 Hz trained and relaxed, going up to 200 Hz was possible but was straining and cost effort and sounded fake to me. My chest voice broke into head voice at about the middle C, but I was probably mostly using a blended voice below that (resonance control) and able to sound female until almost the D3 at 140 Hz or so. My upper pitch limits are also similar to yours, including the uppermost pitch being G5 ...

Post op I have  found that using the lower ranges are straining my voice more than if I use upper ranges. I seem to be more gentle on my voice when it is used at 200 Hz than if I let it drop to 170 or 180 Hz or even below, which is however a place it sometimes wants to settle and I think this is what Dr Kim meant with retraining the voice. I found a good way to get used to the new optimum pitch seems to be singing, as singing for me naturally comes out a lot higher in pitch and without any male undertones. It gives me the feeling of working with female vocal chords now and not having to fight male subtones and pitch ranges.

I had a similar experience like you last weekend - I strained my voice a bit (campfires, some singing, lots of talking, rainy weather) and since then it feels rough, hoarse, weak and like I have something stuck in my throat. However Jessie replied to my request that it is more likely a cold infection than the Botox wearing off. So I guess all I can do now is voice rest and drinking tea and then make a voice redording to send to Yeson for analysis

I hadn't been misgendered on the phone in 6 years and I was stealth from 2010-2015, I came out this year for various reasons.

Oh wow - I am stealth in some aspects of my life for 15 years now, but dont really want to come out - I have a few friends who "know", though. Why did you go public with it?

I couldn't do blended voice at all. My chest voice could sound female down to quite a low pitch, say 150hz, because I learned to control resonance and have a sing song vocal style.

Are you sure this was not some "blended" voice?

I feel that both blend (which I couldn't do before the op) and falsetto sound fake/male.

Well, you gained blended voice, that is great already. What makes you think your upper range beyond the middle C is male sounding? Why would it be - if you do resonance properly. The Yeson exercises are almost all in that range - do you feel you sound male when doing them?

I measure my post-op not-thinking-about-it pitch at between 160hz and 176 hz depending on day. Yeson says the last sample I sent them measures at 244hz fundamental frequency - I measure it at 176 with praat. I asked them to double check they had the correct file and recheck the measurements but they say they are correct and that praat isn't as sophisticated as their program. It really does not sound like a 244hz voice.

I would like to hear that recording and analyze it in PRAAT. I have some tricks to use in PRAAT which give more accurate results.

Another way to check pitch is to use a piano or sound generator and see which note sounds most like your speaking voice. Its better someone else does that comparison though. My voice therapist uses this to determine my speaking pitch.

It's been really bad since - croaky and tight. Today I tried consciously lifting my pitch - and the raspiness goes away significantly when I do! Maybe I am straining my voice by speaking too low, even though that's where my voice gravitates to?

So I'm consciously raising the pitch to the top end of my chest voice and accessing falsetto or blend (hard to control for me when jumping up into it from chest voice randomly, easy to do when going up a scale) when I need to go up from there. The resulting average pitch is 215-240hz, close to what Yeson said. To my ear it sounds fake, speaking up there, and I feel very conscious of the transitions between voice types - this doesn't have the feeling of freedom I expect cis women must have with their voices. I don't know if this is what Dr Kim meant by the brain needing to get used to the hew equipment - that it will feel fake for a while - but I thought we weren't supposed to actively try to raise the pitch and let it find its own level?

Actually I think this is partially true. I was given the instruction by Dr kim to consciously use that target pitch and not let it drop. As I understand it, I have to train my brain to use the voice at that pitch now which is my new optimum pitch, but my brain did not get it yet and is still used to the old equipment. I feel the transition to blended voice and head voice is all a lot easier now and actually I have a blended voice that ranges from G3 to D4 which is quite useable for speaking and comes quite easy - if I drop out of the blended voice, the voice gets hoarse, if I go upward I am in the head voice which is good for singing or some expressions but not for talking - doesnt make sense at 260 Hz anyways.

The interesting thing was that my voice therapist said, she has the same passagio points - she usually sings along me when we try singing different notes and she also breaks into a sort of head voice at the D4 or E4, sometimes even C4 - same with me. So this gave me the feeling that male and female voices are not as fundamentally different as some may think.

So for me it also feels weird - in some way it feels like I need to consciously shift something, in some ways it feels "right" to use the voice with the blended voice at that target pitch. I dont know how this will progress from here - most people who had the surgery did not report such details.

However this turns out I'm not getting the freedom from the pitch ceiling on my head voice that I hoped for before the op. I was hoping to be able to get up to A5 without strain. If that was an unrealistic expectation, ten let me be a lesson to others about what this operation can't do for you. At the end of the day I still feel like I am dealing with male vocal equipment.

Have you talked to women who are not good singers about how their voice feels and acts and reacts when speaking and going up in pitch? Maybe we can learn something there. I am not sure an A5 is easily used in speaking by all cis women...

[jhulyglow]

Uma amiga comentou comigo sobre Dr. Thomaz, em Portland - EUA e Dr. Ornouma e Kunack, Tailândia. Alguém tem referências ou mais informações? Obrigada.

[Teslagirl]

I have been intubated 3x since VFS, the first was about 9 months post op. One time did leave me very hoarse afterward for about 4 days, scared the crap out of me. Luckily came back in full.

A friend of mine is having SRS after VFS; Can I take it from your comment that she shouldn't be particularly worried about damaging the VFS site, or is there a serious issue there?

Sarah

[Jennygirl]

A friend of mine is having SRS after VFS; Can I take it from your comment that she shouldn't be particularly worried about damaging the VFS site, or is there a serious issue there?

Sarah

I would ask Dr. Kim for sure about that. Personally I would think that 3-4 months spaced out would be enough time for a full full heal of the vocal cords- I bet most of the inflammation will be gone by then.

Like I said though, make sure to ask Dr Kim!

[anjaq]

I think Dr Kim will tell you that you should wait at least 2 months after VFS before you do another surgery and also to use a smaller intubation tube for the surgery. greenrabbit here in the forum had a surgery within the first 8 weeks and described her experiences and issues with that in a thread. basically it is a bit tricky to intubate with VFS already done. you need a smaller intubator (size 5.5) and be very careful inserting and removing it. Some SRS and FFS surgeons know about this, since they have patients frequently who had that issue. I know for example Facialteam has the knowledge how to deal with a VFS orior to the FFS they do. If it is done in a bad way though, even long after the surgery, a surgeon using a bad intubation can damage the voice with it. Which is why I am about to design a medical emergency card just in case...

[seattlesarah]

Hi all, I sent Anjaq and Teslagirl some voice clips by private message, which unlocked for me after a few posts. I don't want to post my voice on the public forum.

I discovered this afternoon that I have a cold, so I can't really say now whether I've had strain the past few days causing the increased croakiness, or whether it was swollen glands or something... I'm just going to have to wait a week or so to get better and see.

I think what I'm most frustrated with is that I thought it would be easy and unconscious to speak at high pitches, but it's not, I'm super conscious of what words and syllables will break into falsetto and I know when I do it sounds flute-like and has too different a timbre to my chest voice to sound feminine. I sound "heavy".  I remember before my voice broke I didn't feel any difference in how I produced pitch at different levels. That's the kind of freedom I expect cis women feel when they talk and what I hoped to gain. I still feel like I have a really clunky, heavy instrument.

I'm aware I'm complaining a lot for having a passable voice, but to me it was never about passing, it was kind of about shrugging off this heaviness about my voice, both the sound and the feeling. I'm disappointed it didn't happen.

[Laura_7]

Of course a voice trainer helps, especially avoiding errors.
But many people have done this on their own. What it comes down to imo is practise: its like learning piano... no matter what method is used, like bringing down falsetto or singing or simply raising voice a bit step by step... its necessary to train muscles. Its like shaping a statue. It takes some time and consistent training.

Just keep at it... never overstrain your voice... and drink enough water to keep your throat moistened...


hugs

[anjaq]

I think what I'm most frustrated with is that I thought it would be easy and unconscious to speak at high pitches, but it's not, I'm super conscious of what words and syllables will break into falsetto and I know when I do it sounds flute-like and has too different a timbre to my chest voice to sound feminine. I sound "heavy".  I remember before my voice broke I didn't feel any difference in how I produced pitch at different levels. That's the kind of freedom I expect cis women feel when they talk and what I hoped to gain.

I have a suggestion. I might do the same if I find an opportunity to do so. Maybe it makes sense to talk to a Ciswoman about how her voice feels to her - if it has breaks of if it feels different at different pitches... do a reality check on your assumptions!

How long is it in the past that your voice broke? Are you sure your memory is right?

My voice therapist made remarks about chest and head voice for her that sounded like she has also the same difference - at lower pitches it is chest voice and then it goes into head voice (or maybe mixed voice or whatever one wants to call it). Her passagio is at the same point as it is for me, at the C4. I am not sure the break is as strong for her though as it is for me - I would need to ask.

I think one thing you can work on with therapy is to train your muscles to make the passagio softer - and to use a mixed or middle voice instead of a falsetto for the upper ranges. The Yeson lip trill exercises are a good exercises to make this happen as well as the other glissandos. My voice therapist said that in every human, there are two main muscles involved in pitch, the CT muscle and the vocalis muscle - and there is one point at which one of them has to let go and the other has to take control and if one of them just lets go too soon or the other pulls too hard when taking over, the voice breaks - so one has to train to use the muscles gentle and apparently this happens for women more natural or easy? I found that it is not that hard for me, especially post op (except now with the botox apparently wearing off) to make the transition softer when doing exercises but it does not always translate into speech. So I intend to ask her if there is some issue to that that is typical for males and if that issue is somethng women never have.

The "heavy" sound is probably more an imagination. Yes of course there is some timbre to your voice, otherwise it would be "flutelike" or thin. It gives character and power to a voice to have a timbre and I think with the Yeson surgery, the timbre shifts upwards significantly. Maybe not into a soprano range, but certainly into an alto female range. The surgery cannot make a soprano girl voice out of a bariton.

[Teslagirl]

Hi all, I sent Anjaq and Teslagirl some voice clips by private message, which unlocked for me after a few posts. I don't want to post my voice on the public forum.

Hello Sarah from another fake Sarah!

Thank you for sending me your voice samples. You know, the first thing I want to say to you, is that croakiness or not, they all sound indisputably absolutely female and in the long run I'm sure you  will have a superb result. The first sample (Rainbow Passage) is probably a little high and I can hear you hitting the top of your range, but the second sample is undoubtedly a normal female voice, albeit probably a little higher than average. Your third sample is undoubtedly female as well. You say that it is similar to your pre-op voice but I can well imagine you might be straining to get down to that point following the Yeson surgery. I'd love to hear a pre-op sample if you have one, as I have a strong suspicion that the surgery doesn't just raise the pitch, (though some people end up with pretty much the same fundamental frequency as pre-op), it also affects the lower harmonics. I really think it is those lower harmonics which make a voice sound male, and why female voices at the same pitch sound 'purer'. I'm willing to bet you lost those subtones after surgery, because all I'm hearing is a pleasant woman's voice. I bet the croakiness goes with time, or if not, that it is amenable to voice therapy. I really do think you sound great and I'd be happy to get the same result.

Love,

Sarah.

[Teslagirl]

Hi again Sarah.

I can see now that I was addressing the wrong issue, as sounding female is not an issue to you. You always sounded female anyhow.
As I understand it, you had the Yeson surgery to be able to fully relax in that female voice and you feel you haven't got it. I really do sympathise, but I have been using a controlled voice for many years, and I have to say that although controlled in theory, I feel totally relaxed and unconscious in using my voice. What I want from Yeson is to get rid of the lower harmonics and remove any chance that I might go too low. If you relax into the control like I have, I believe you will eventually lose that sense of consciously controlling your voice and you won't even know you're doing it.

Sarah

[seattlesarah]

Well, it's possible I guess that I'll get used to the sensation of bridging that chest/head break smoothly without thinking (like I need to now), but the head voice still doesn't sound female to me.

I can't remember who I've told or if I said it publicly, but my macbook died suddenly just a month ago and I lost my pre-surgery voice samples. I went to the vocaroo links for them and they've expired. I really thought things stayed up on vocaroo longer than that.

I don't think ciswomen are really aware of what head and chest voices are or notice any difference in how they make the noise. My partner doesn't. I really don't think anyone who's voice never broke could understand the feeling I'm talking about of being trapped in low tones and feeling this kind of conscious heavy effort to move between chest and head voice to be able to go up in pitch while talking.

That's really interesting about the muscles and the best explanation I've seen for how/why the voice cracks between ranges, thanks for sharing that.

You heard my voice files Anjaq, don't you think that the parts where it goes into head voice sound off? It IS possible I hear it differently to others due to dysphoria.

I think mainly what I'm hearing from people is that it's fine and there are no problems. I should probably just let it go, but I do feel dejected.

[anjaq]

Wll Tesla-Sarah, I was also hoping for some change in the harmonics but also some pitch increase and more easiness when going to head or middle voice - and I think I got all of that, albeit not yet to the degree I was hoping for (but its just 3.5 months now, so I am supposed to be patient )
And yes - even if I go to the bottom of my range now, its hard to sound truely male.

I settled into my changed voice a long time ago, I mean - over a decade ago - so it felt relaxed to me to use my voice at the 140-160 Hz range - maybe that is why I dont perceive the difference so huge - my original voice must have been at 110 Hz, and that is the point the pitch increase starts counting from, right?

Seattle Sarah - Is there a chance that your voice files have been copied? Did you post the vocaroo links somewhere?

I don't think ciswomen are really aware of what head and chest voices are or notice any difference in how they make the noise. My partner doesn't. I really don't think anyone who's voice never broke could understand the feeling I'm talking about of being trapped in low tones and feeling this kind of conscious heavy effort to move between chest and head voice to be able to go up in pitch while talking.

Well I personally think something else plays a role, but I dont know the physics/biology. It seems to me that with the voice breaking, a new register is added below that one that women use normally. And the low pitch from the larger vocal chords resonate well in that register , so it is used mostly, for a while the voice flips between the old (child/female) register and the new one in puberty. I think that what has to be done now is to use that older register again and forget about the male register. Using higher pitches helps, having shorter vocal chords helps, training helps. I feel if I use that register, I have no issues transitioning between about G3 and up an octave. But below the F3 it starts to break up and to use lowest notes like C3, I can only get to them when I use the "male" register which also gives a different sound and which gives me the feeling of being locked in a low range. So I think there is a chance, that this is a learning process rather than physiology - that most women just never learn how to use that low register because for them it is not in their vocal range. Dr Kim insists on me using a female resonance pattern and higher pitches, so this fits into the picture that basically the goal is to just use that "middle" register and not drop into the lower register. And honestly that lower register that I guess I used before now feels and sounds all broken, so it does not make sense to use it anyways...

You heard my voice files Anjaq, don't you think that the parts where it goes into head voice sound off? It IS possible I hear it differently to others due to dysphoria.

That may be.  But in your highest pitched sample, yes, it does sound strained, not male but like you are forcing your voice...

I'd have to listen to it again to see if I can hear parts that sound "male falsetto" like...

[Teslagirl]

Uma amiga comentou comigo sobre Dr. Thomaz, em Portland - EUA e Dr. Ornouma e Kunack, Tailândia. Alguém tem referências ou mais informações? Obrigada.

Just thought I'd post a translation. Can anyone help jhulyglow?

"A friend commented to me about Dr. Thomas in Portland - USA and Dr. Ornouma and Kunack , Thailand. Does anyone have references or more information?

Thank you ."

[anjaq]

There were several threads in which Dr Thomas was mentioned. Try searching the forum for "voicedoctor", which is the name of his website. From what I heave heard his technique is unique as it actually changes the whole larynx, making resonance as well as pitch no real issue and it should be the surgery that gets closest to a truely female voice. However the risk of complications is a lot higher than with the other voice surgeries and the results are mixed. Its is a highly invasive surgery. I never heard of the surgeon in Thailand, but given the large Trans population there I assume they have several voice surgeons there as well and some of them probably will have lots of experience. I saw a video once with some Thai girls who had voice surgery in Thailand and it sounded pretty good.