anybody else HATES shopping for women's clothes?

[mmmmm]

I don't think that is entirely accurate about the face. Hormones don't have a dramatic effect but they have a subtle one. I almost never wear makeup yet my face from 6 months ago is different. It's not dramatic and you can see the same person but I'm definitely different. I used to think it was my eyebrows but I let them grow back and I look different to 6 months ago. Facial hair? Nope. Even though I've had laser I do have a shadow. It's going away slowly with each treatment but it's there. Head hair? Nope. Pull it back or wear a hat and I look different to 6 months ago.

The virtual FFS site does have some explanations such as reduced muscle mass around the mouth, and reduced/atrophied chewing muscles.

But the effect definitely isn't as dramatic as FFS, but to say it's "almost nothing" is inaccurate.

Fuller cheeks, rounder chin and overall little more smooth appearance because of different fat deposition, count as "almost nothing". Lets make an experiment and take someone who is genetically male, 40 years old average looking, and give them traditional HRT, without them knowing (that wouldn't be a nice thing to do... but it would be for our important scientific purpose!). And then wait and see, 5 years for example or how long does it take before people will start to see him as a woman. It might take a while, but considering average genetic male has a fairly masculine facial structure, it probably won't happen, unless he would choose to have laser hair removal/electrolyis, take care of skin daily, grow-out hair with appropriate style, learn to use make-up, start to dress somewhat accordingly to what we would expect a woman of their age to dress, have VFS and voice training, etc... and even then it might not be enough for someone who has fairly masculine facial features, and they might need to have FFS in order to be read as cis-female in all everyday interactions. I still say hormones helped, but they did almost nothing in relation to everything else that was needed to shift appearance from looking cis-male to looking cis-female.

It is unknown whether a person (/test subject) in question would hated shopping for women's clothes.

[stephaniec]

I don't know, I'm 63 years old and on HRT 19 months. I think my face has changed quite a bit for a test subject plus I love shopping for clothes.

[iKate]

That plus the virtual FFS people know what they're talking about based on actual research, not casual observation.

Of course, actual changes are minor but they add up. FFS is dramatic of course because you're taking a saw to your facial bones but even hormones can make the face shape shift significantly. It's definitely not "almost nothing."

[mmmmm]

Please present a prove of that "significant" changes! Same angles, NO make-up, same light conditions, same facial expression, same or similar hairstyle... We can understand and keep in mind the hair-removal related difference and weight loss/gain difference, and even those of us observers who never did any actual research about facial features, soft tissue, bone structure, and facial surgery, can try our best to ignore the eyebrow plucking difference. I really want to see a case where hormones significantly changed someones face. Because I have NEVER seen one case of such, apart from what Emily proved last day, where hormones quite significantly effected her face because she had some serious facial muscles before.

[Jill F]

Wow, seriously, wow.  Locked again.   

And this is apparently why we can't have nice things.