Duality of self / mourning old self

[TheBattler]

I do not want to losse my old self - But in many ways it is already gone. That feeling of being fit and health and enjoying life is long gone - I just can not admit it to myself.

               


Alice

[NicholeW.]

A little over a year ago I was writing in my blog about how we have to filter our memories to make sure we don't accidentally give ourselves away in casual conversation; you know, saying something like, "when I was in Cub Scouts..."

Anyway, a realization hit me as I was writing; I sadi, "Today I had an even odder experience. I was thinking of elementary school, and it hit me that I remembered myself as Annie. All the experiences were there: playing at recess, doing a magic trick for show & tell, watching a movie in the cafeteria; yet they were the experiences of a little girl with bushy hair and too-long legs. I was seeing things through the eyes of the person that had been there all along, buried deep inside, but still there."

That is exactly what I was talking about, Anne. Same here. I understand in a "rational" way, or at least I think I do that evryone else referred to me as "him." But, the memories have become me having had the experiences occur. A mom who ws not the birth mother, but who celebrated having children witht he birth mom. Grade school and high school as Nichole.

Perhaps oddest of all, G.I. Jane!!! Not that I was in a combat unit or even close, but my recollections are Nichole in the army. It is what it is.

It seemed a bit strange when the first memory like that occurred. But now, it is simply what is.

Nichole

[zombiesarepeaceful]

I consider my pre transition self to be a whole other person. I was always male in my body language, appearance, etc, and I still have the same personality traits (maybe slightly more ->-bleeped-<-ish ) but to me that person is someone I don't want to revisit. I didn't mourn the death of them, I celebrated it. I'm happy to be 're-born' as who I really am.

[Berliegh]

I consider my pre transition self to be a whole other person. I was always male in my body language, appearance, etc, and I still have the same personality traits (maybe slightly more ->-bleeped-<-ish ) but to me that person is someone I don't want to revisit. I didn't mourn the death of them, I celebrated it. I'm happy to be 're-born' as who I really am.

I've always been the same as I am now. My body laungage, personality was always very effemernite for a guy as was my appearance, so I haven't changed anything......All I've done is tweek the same person..

[p!nk]

that was really moving.. i respect you

[melissa90299]

I don't know if this is common, although I've ran into a post-op FtM friend that this was true for. Anyway, I find that I've increasingly see my old self as another person. I broke down the other night because I realized that that old person is gone. In a weird way, that old person has died and I was born. So, I was essentially mourning my old-self.

--natalie

This is weird one........
I don't have an old self or a new self......I've always been the same person......I've never lead two lives or lead a lie.....I don't identify with the anology at all.....I haven't changed personality or looks and have always remained true to myself. ..

I know some people do change from one 'type' to another especially hyper masculine types who lived in deniel and were agressive and become gentle...

You are very lucky that you were never forced to assume the role of a male. Can you illuminate a bit how you managed to do that? For instance, in my case, I pretty much lived as my "true self" pre-school, I did girly things and had female playmates. But when I went to Catholic school, everything changed and I was forced to assume the male role.

[ketti]

You are very lucky that you were never forced to assume the role of a male. Can you illuminate a bit how you managed to do that? For instance, in my case, I pretty much lived as my "true self" pre-school, I did girly things and had female playmates. But when I went to Catholic school, everything changed and I was forced to assume the male role.

I never assumed the role of a male. And that was probably more out of stupidness and stuborness than out of opportunity. Throughout my school years i was constantly bullied and harrassed. A bunch of kids might corner me and throw stones at me, and i would consider it a normal day. I can't imagine something that would pressure me more to adapt then what i went throu. But the thought of not acting true to myself never occured to me. (Or rather, i had tried once earlier in my childhood and i didn't want to do it again) So i guess unless you let yourself be, you're never really forced to do anything. I don't regret acting like i did, even though it brought me so much pain.

Regarding the actual topic, i don't have a feeling of duality. I think redfish put it really well:

I'm not really able to split myself like that. Seeing as time is constantly moving forward, I seem to have a rather large accumulation of old selves - in fact, I've gained quite a few in just writing this!

Which old selves still stay with me and which have been severed off? I'm rather sure all of them fall within the former, whether I wish to disassociate them or not.

I feel like a new person every day, maybe a crappy suicidal person, but a new one nontheless.

[Kate]

I never assumed the role of a male.

In what way? I mean... how did you act that was your "true self," which wasn't in the role of a male?

~Kate~

[ketti]

In what way? I mean... how did you act that was your "true self," which wasn't in the role of a male?

Well, true self sounds a lot greater then it was. I was insecure and afraid. I was constantly looking over my shoulder. I was chronically suspicious and afraid of everyone. Not great at all. What i meant was i did not put up a facade or adapted a role people expected of me. Maybe because i was already ostracized, i felt there was nothing for me to gain even if i did try to conform to gender norms. Or i might have acted on a million of other reasons (sorry for not knowing). As for exactly what i did that was not male. It is really hard (for me) to pinpoint. I've been indoctrinating myself as long as i can remember that there is no difference between male and female. Sort of trying to comfort myself. But even though that was what i wnas telling myself, i was always using females as role models. I was observant of behaviour used mostly by females/males, while telling myself that there were no such behaviour. (Maybe you could call this a duality of mind? lol) Pointing at a behavior and saying i think that is male, or i think that is female. That is something i cannot do anymore, my brain short circuits when i try. I'm able to aproximate it by saying: I think a lot of people seems to think that is female/male behavior (but even that is hard, wtf have i done to myself? lol).
Well, what am i rambling about? To let the other duality of my mind speak a little: I am simplifying a lot when i say i was explictly trying to adapt female behaviour and avoiding male ones. It is always a persons behaviour i adapt, not a genders. Whenever i come across a person i like i integrates a part of her/him inside of me. And i've liked a lot of guys as well as girls. It's not like you can divide every behaviour (or any really) and say this is girl behaviour and that is boy behaviour. We all have our quirks, and no one really fits 100% in whatever role they might be playing for the moment. But still i didn't want people to belive i was a boy, so i tried to avoid anything that people might regard as typical boy behaviour, while accenting anything that might come across as being female. I was trying to say through my behaviour: look i am really a girl, don't you get it?! Not sure how many really did get anything though ^^'.

[Kate]

What i meant was i did not put up a facade or adapted a role people expected of me...

Thanks for answering! See, it's just that I've always felt a little "guilty" for not playing with Barbie's or Easy Bake Ovens when I was a kid. I DID play with GI Joe's... but I tended to make little homes for them and pretend they were shopping and hanging out more than killing one another, lol. I had those miniature army men... but I'd sit around all day and form them into little groups, trying to figure out who would get along with who. I played with Tonka Trucks... but I'd build these cool little suburban developments with homes and landscaping and try to imagine the families that lived there.

God, ya know it's sad, but even at age five all I wanted to do was talk about girls. Which was fine until I got a bit older, and social expectations kinda forced my friends to be mostly boys soon after that. And boys generally don't want to talk about girls - except to make fun of them - until they hit puberty, lol. And then I HATED their kind of mean, objectifying wise cracks about pretty girls.

Anyways, a long-winded way to say... as a friend keeps trying to tell me... I think many of us DID live a girl's life as children, though it may not have LOOKED like it at first glance. We did what we could, within the circumstances and environment we were stuck in.

It is always a persons behaviour i adapt, not a genders. Whenever i come across a person i like i integrates a part of her/him inside of me.

Now that's interesting! I've always had a female role model, always someone in my mind I'd admire and wish I was her. In school, I'd always find THE one girl who closest embodied who I thought I was... in looks and personality.. and admire her from afar. In later years, it became a bit more abstract with celebrities and whatnot, but STILL. I didn't admire them specifically "because they are women," but just because they were what I was drawn to to BE, to be like.

So I dunno... maybe my "old self" wasn't so different after all

~Kate~

[ketti]

I DID play with GI Joe's... but I tended to make little homes for them and pretend they were shopping and hanging out more than killing one another, lol. I had those miniature army men... but I'd sit around all day and form them into little groups, trying to figure out who would get along with who. I played with Tonka Trucks... but I'd build these cool little suburban developments with homes and landscaping and try to imagine the families that lived there.

That is soo cute!

Anyways, a long-winded way to say... as a friend keeps trying to tell me... I think many of us DID live a girl's life as children, though it may not have LOOKED like it at first glance. We did what we could, within the circumstances and environment we were stuck in.
/.../
So I dunno... maybe my "old self" wasn't so different after all

I think so too. (both)
At least gender wise. (second) But you have grown a lot as a human, so of course you are not the same as you once were..

[Ember Lewis]

I pulled out my photo album 3 days ago and almost started crying when I saw old pictures of myself. I too see my old self as another person, it is me but also another person. It's so hard to explain, I wanted to reach into the picture and give that person a hug and say it does get better. And I do the "oh this belonged to so and so" thing too.

[Kate]

And I do the "oh this belonged to so and so" thing too.

Hmmm, ya know, the freakiest thing is my wife *literally* speaks of her (now gone) husband as if he's someone else. I mean... she literally, actually thinks of it that way. I'll hear her saying my male name to someone on the phone and I'll get mad, thinking she's calling ME by that name... then I realize it's how she refers to "me" before transitioning.

Like I overheard her saying to someone tonight, "I gave away all of [male name]'s clothes to Frank..."

And it's not just a coping mechanism for her; she *insists* I changed so much this last year, both mentally and emotionally, that I'm NOT who she married. As she puts it, "before you did this, there was room for both the male, AND Kate... you were BOTH. But now, there's just one person. Just Kate. He's just totally gone."

Which on the one hand is sorta validating, and yet... terribly sad too...

~Kate~

[Hypatia]

I keep getting that I'm supposed to feel sad I chucked my old identity... but all I can feel is relief. I was miserable with it. Good riddance!

[Kate]

I keep getting that I'm supposed to feel sad I chucked my old identity... but all I can feel is relief. I was miserable with it. Good riddance!

See, I can't feel that way. I'd feel too guilty, too ungrateful. Even with SRS, I don't curse my male genitals. They've been healthy and never gave me problems. It's not THEIR fault. So I feel sympathy for them, that they'll have to go soon, even though I'm looking forward to the changes.

Same with the identity. My name change is coming up in just over a week, and although I'm insanely excited about it, I'm also sad too. It's a death, a loss as well as a birth.

IMHO, I think it's *healthy* to acknowledge that loss. Healthy to grieve. Healthy to truly face the *entirety* of what's happening in a transition. There IS a price to pay, and I fear if I don't acknowledge that, then I'm not really transitioning, not really letting go of that past. If there is no sense of pain or loss, then I'd just be play-acting, pretending to be a woman within a male context, IMHO.

I think I better appreciate what I'm gaining by also truly acknowledging what I'm losing, if that makes sense.

~Kate~

[Berliegh]

You are very lucky that you were never forced to assume the role of a male. Can you illuminate a bit how you managed to do that? For instance, in my case, I pretty much lived as my "true self" pre-school, I did girly things and had female playmates. But when I went to Catholic school, everything changed and I was forced to assume the male role.

I tried to live as close to my true self as much as possible. I didn't got to a religious School or anything like that, but I went to an all boys school at 11 to 16 which was extreamely rough by any standard. All boys were beated up by several of the older boys on the first day. I got my head kicked in most days and called 'girl' most days and usually came home with a split lip or blood on my face......

...But I stuck to my guns because I couldn't change who I was. It was dangerous but I got through it. The same happened at work.....I was picked on and abused and clearly physically didn't look like the guys I worked with. I have had so many beatings and crap all my life and none of it has been an easy ride...

I haven't got an old self or a new self...just me...the same as I have always been....

[Ell]

and, and i still don't get why you'd be mourning your former male incarnation. i'd have thought you'd want to get away from him. isn't that why you're transitioning?

[Kate]

and, and i still don't get why you'd be mourning your former male incarnation. i'd have thought you'd want to get away from him. isn't that why you're transitioning?

Watching things die makes me sad. It's really just that simple.

I'm transitioning because I HAVE to. Not to become a woman, not to lose an old male self, not to get a better life. I'm transitioning because I MUST.

It sounds corny, but I KNOW it's my destiny, my fate, my raison d'etre for this lifetime.

~Kate~

[Hypatia]

If there is no sense of pain or loss, then I'd just be play-acting, pretending to be a woman within a male context, IMHO.

I don't understand what you mean by that. And I sure hope you don't apply that judgment to others who feel differently about this question.

Listen, honey, I've already had my fill of pain and loss because my true gender was thwarted for so long. I'm done with that now. I need to move forward into a healthier, happier future instead of dwelling on the past. And I already made my peace with my former persona and its former functions, now totally obsolete. I made my peace with it, but that doesn't take away the torment it subjected me to. Enough already!

[Kate]

If there is no sense of pain or loss, then I'd just be play-acting, pretending to be a woman within a male context, IMHO.

I don't understand what you mean by that. And I sure hope you don't apply that judgment to others who feel differently about this question.

Of course not.

*I* feel this way. *I* need to mourn the loss of my male life, male identity, and the male future I would have had with my wife. No more intimacy. No sex. No children.

If I don't, I know it's going to come back and haunt me. That's a problem with my personality, not anyone else's. If I don't mourn "him," I'll know I'm not really facing up to those losses.

~Kate~

Posted on: October 04, 2007, 11:44:30 PMPondering more... you know what I think it is? And I'm jus being honest here, sorry if I hurt feelings...

But everyone saying GOOD RIDDENS! and THANK GOD HE'S DEAD just seems so flippant, so dismissive. I had a life. A GOOD life. Yea OK, It sucked that I wasn't female. But I built the best life I could, and that *included* other people, and their expectations and hopes and dreams built around those promises I made AS a male.

And for me to just say... YAY! HE'S DEAD! THANK GOD! is just so disrepectful, so demeaning to that life. He deserves more than a GO AWAY, YOU SUCKED ANYWAY from me.

Funny... this is what my wife has been trying to tell me whenever I jump for joy at the things happening to me. Yes, she's happy for Kate. But she's terribly, terribly sad for losing Him. "Sometimes it just seems like you're dancing on his grave" she keeps telling me. "He deserves better than that."

And she's right. For me, my life, my situation... she's absolutely right.

~Kate~