Ethics of stealth sex

[Nicole]

Jessica, you and I are more than aware of just how thin the veil of stealth is, but don't try and actually convince any one of it because they simply won't believe.

People, you'd be amazed at what is floating around in various government systems about you and your past. And, of course, a serious post-accident physical exam is going to raise questions - even for post-ops..

I came out at 14/15, started blockers soon after, moved interstate with my mother and went full time then, started HRT at 18 and SRS at 21, I'm now in my mid 30's.
I've worked for the biggest media company in the world (News Ltd), I know what people look for and how these background checkers work.
I've gone to huge lengths to make sure I'm safe.
The people who know are family members, all of whom are fine with it, the younger ones just know me as Nicole.
My 2 closest & best friends, 2 girls I trust with my life. They've kept it with them since I told them, they also have not brought it up in any single way.
My doctors also know, yes its on my medical record, but its never brought up and under our laws, cannot be brought up.

I changed my last name with my first name, but of me being stealth is I've distanted myself from the trans-community outside of here and facebook, which I have 2 accounts.
I started a second account when a cross dresser added me, I freaked out, went into full lock down and started the second profile. I never really use my main one, but use it to keep in touch with my mum when shes overseas and a few odd event invites.
Yes someone could expose me, but why would they? I don't go out of my way to piss people off.

[Zoey]

I'm with Nichole on this. No one has the right to judge who is to be stealth--who to tell, when, whatever....it's a personal decision. As personal as the decision whether or not to have SRS. Deception is in one's own mind. If you think you're being deceptive, then you are being deceptive.

The question though I ask in all honesty and with deep respect, is since there are such very strong feelings against stealth, why do so many women undergo FFS? I truly don't understand it. If you're going to reveal your past gender status anyways, why would one undergo hours of painful surgery and spend thousands of dollars to 'look female'? ...and then go and tell people you're 'not female'. Is that not deceptive to attempt to look perfectly, symmetrically female in every way and then drop the bombshell, oh sorry honey this tiny little chin was purchased last year... I'm not trying to start a fight or make anyone feel badly, I truly am asking from my heart because I simply do not understand. FFS seems to be very very popular these days, and yet many of the same proponents of FFS for 'passing' are then blurting out that they're not women, or they're transgendered or whatever other term is popular now. Why waste time and money on a surgery, which you have to admit is also 'deceptive'--you're altering your physicality to mimic the features of a natal female. I'm not judging, I'm asking a valid question and really am wondering about this.
I don't see any difference in terms of 'deception' between someone who has had serious FFS and then meets a guy and eventually discloses her gender status...because she's obviously used her 'deception' of FFS to attract him in the first place....It's no different than someone stealth who doesn't disclose--if you consider that a deception.
And isn't the focus of pre-SRS surgery to get the person to accept themselves and find a way to integrate into society on a level they're comfortable with? Maybe some people are not comfortable going through the entire transition process only to have to 'out' themselves somewhere down the road.
I think this is a topic where we should agree to disagree since there is no one correct answer to the question and I think it's best to live and let live.
Peace.
I

Guys, this thread is not about passing or stealth in general, it's about deep stealth with one's sexual partner/s or in a romantic relationship. There's a huge difference between wanting to pass in one's everyday life when interacting with people vs. getting physical with someone when that person believes that the body they are caressing, kissing, making love to is the body of a genetic female and you know they would throw a fit if they knew otherwise. Being intimate with another person and especially being in a serious relationship with another person takes the issue to a whole 'nother level - whereas passing in everyday life can be seen a practical desire based on safety: no one wants to be clocked and harassed or beaten up.

I would never lie to a partner if he asked me if I was a trans sexual woman. If he doesn't ask, am I deceiving him? And is that important to anyone?

If we look at deceiving a partner then what am I deceiving him about?.....If a partner asks if I am trans sexual and I say No, I'm lying. That is immoral, at least with my morals,

Cindy, with all due respect, I find those comments naive. You speak like a lawyer, with loopholes: "Well, technically I'm not doing anything 'wrong' because blah blah blah..."

We both know that if you are a very passable trans person, your partner believes he is with a genetic female because everything about you has led him to believe that. And you are quite certain he would be VERY upset to find out the truth about who you really are: a genetic-male with an XY chromosome whose body has been surgically altered to approximate a female body. So yes, there is a big deception taking place- even if people want to do mental/emotional gymnastics to try to maneuver around that fact.

[kelly_aus]

We both know that if you are a very passable trans person, your partner believes he is with a genetic female because everything about you has led him to believe that. And you are quite certain he would be VERY upset to find out the truth about who you really are: a genetic-male with an XY chromosome whose body has been surgically altered to approximate a female body. So yes, there is a big deception taking place- even if people want to do mental/emotional gymnastics to try to maneuver around that fact.

And in some jurisdictions, failure to disclose is a crime.. Ponder that for a moment.

[Rejennyrated]

And in some jurisdictions, failure to disclose is a crime.. Ponder that for a moment.

It is in the UK - people here HAVE been jailed for it - and personally if someone did it to me, even as someone with a trans history myself, I would very probably be pressing charges on them because I happen to think the law in the UK is right and should be respected.

It would not be acceptable to me to either do it, or have it done to me. I am consistent - I would not expect anyone to do something I wasnt prepared to do myself, but neither would I expect them to treat me with any less respect and honesty than I would afford to them.

[januarysunshine]

Guys, this thread is not about passing or stealth in general, it's about deep stealth with one's sexual partner/s or in a romantic relationship. There's a huge difference between wanting to pass in one's everyday life when interacting with people vs. getting physical with someone when that person believes that the body they are caressing, kissing, making love to is the body of a genetic female and you know they would throw a fit if they knew otherwise. Being intimate with another person and especially being in a serious relationship with another person takes the issue to a whole 'nother level - whereas passing in everyday life can be seen a practical desire based on safety: no one wants to be clocked and harassed or beaten up.

Cindy, with all due respect, I find those comments naive. You speak like a lawyer, with loopholes: "Well, technically I'm not doing anything 'wrong' because blah blah blah..."

We both know that if you are a very passable trans person, your partner believes he is with a genetic female because everything about you has led him to believe that. And you are quite certain he would be VERY upset to find out the truth about who you really are: a genetic-male with an XY chromosome whose body has been surgically altered to approximate a female body. So yes, there is a big deception taking place- even if people want to do mental/emotional gymnastics to try to maneuver around that fact.

Ok, so obv you made up your mind...stealth is lying yadda yadda yadda... so why did you even ask the question if you've rebutted every answer that was not "I'd tell him everything and not hold anything back."
I thought you were asking for opinions, which people have readily volunteered. We didn't ask you to judge us for our choice, just as we haven't judged you for your choice to be so open. It seems however, that when anyone stealth comments with their experiences/opinions, you're ready to attack and judge because we're not following the same belief you have--which you didn't even have when you started the post...or did you?
Anyways, I gave you my thoughtful comments and you're welcome to do as you please in regards to telling or not.
Wishing you the best,
JS

[Zoey]

Ok, so obv you made up your mind...stealth is lying yadda yadda yadda... so why did you even ask the question if you've rebutted every answer that was not "I'd tell him everything and not hold anything back."
I thought you were asking for opinions, which people have readily volunteered. We didn't ask you to judge us for our choice, just as we haven't judged you for your choice to be so open. It seems however, that when anyone stealth comments with their experiences/opinions, you're ready to attack and judge because we're not following the same belief you have--which you didn't even have when you started the post...or did you?
Anyways, I gave you my thoughtful comments and you're welcome to do as you please in regards to telling or not.
Wishing you the best,
JS

Honestly, I was hoping for some answers that were a bit more circumspect and...maybe more 'human?' Maybe more ambivalent? More compassionate?? More rooted in reality?
Something like, 'Yes, I keep this from my boyfriend and yes, I do sometimes feel extremely conflicted and guilty about the deception.'

Not 'I'm actually not deceiving him because in my mind I've always been a female.'

Not 'I'm not committing deception because technically, he's never asked me if I'm a biological woman.'


I'm seeing rationalizations that sound borderline sociopathic. Sorry...

[Colleen M]

There's a limit to how much grief I'm going to give somebody for stealth sex, but I do think that as long as we're talking about ethics that a "best practice" approach says to disclose.  I'm not sure drunk one-night stands fit that criteria, but I'd do it with anything you really planned. 

Easy for me to say.  I married a lesbian and don't have to worry about it.   

[Nicole]

What I find here that's very off putting by some is even after all these years of the trans community crying out to be treated no different than the gender we wish to live as there are still people within our community who think we are different.
Yes we have a pass, that pass does not hurt anyone. Like I've said I disclose the fact I can't have kids, I do this fairly early on. Many women cannot have kids, we know this, men know it as well.
I am treated in every way as a woman by family, friends, doctors who know, everyone else also treat me as a woman, because to them that is what I am.
The "failure to disclose" cases your mentioned are BS. Failure to disclose is only applied when there's HIV or other deadly STDs involved, or at very least within Australia.
Is there a risk of someone finding out? Maybe, if I'm not careful, but that's the case with crossing the road.
Living stealth has its risks, but I'm happy, I'm as safe as any other woman and if that upsets you, you're the one with the issue.

[sparrow]

I disagree with you somewhat that I should elevate my own feelings above those of the man/partner's feelings.

IMO, that's a really unhealthy perspective.  For you, for your partner, and for the relationship.  You need to come first in your life.  Otherwise, you'll either sacrifice yourself "for the good," which ultimately leads to ruin, or you'll live in perpetual guilt for not doing the same.  You need to be selfish to survive.  Your relationship needs you to survive.  Your partner needs a person who thrives, not a person who throws themselves away.  You are number one.

[Jessica Merriman]

Jessica, you and I are more than aware of just how thin the veil of stealth is, but don't try and actually convince any one of it because they simply won't believe.

People, you'd be amazed at what is floating around in various government systems about you and your past. And, of course, a serious post-accident physical exam is going to raise questions - even for post-ops..

Totally agree Kelly. Let them run with their naiveté though. One day their world will fall down around them when they least expect it. Anyone born after 1996 is in a data base as both you and I know. The old "I started young and am hot and passable" is simple ridiculous. Here in my state if you have deceptive sex it is a felony, period. Being post op and having sex will get you arrested in the other party finds out somehow and files charges. It is just not worth the risk. Like you said though it will never sink in to them. Oh well.

[Nicole]

As I get older the more I think that those who think that those of us who choose to live stealth are 'naive" are ones who have no hope of ever living stealth.

That might sound mean, but you know what.
I'm now in my mid 30's, I've been living full time since I was 15, other than family members, the people wo know, know SOLELY because I have told them, that includes doctors.
I choose not to disclose, there is no law in my country (Australia) that states that I have to disclose my past.

If, I fell in love and could see marriage moving forward, I may change, like I've said before, I thought about it before, I asked what to do with my 2 best friends.

I'm just amazed at some of the people here.

[Rejennyrated]

As I get older the more I think that those who think that those of us who choose to live stealth are 'naive" are ones who have no hope of ever living stealth.

I think that is a difficult conjecture to support, and from a personal view not at all borne out by experience... I mean perhaps I'm not exactly the sort person you describe, I'm a childhood transitioner (age 5) and all that, but over the last 30 years I've had long periods which you might describe as stealth, (I wouldnt call it that though, I'd just say they were periods when I chose not to disclose because it wasnt relevant)

But then I reached a jucture where I decided to volutarily break that "stealth" in order to freely help others and to shock a fair few medical colleagues out of their smug attitudes - which I certainly did! You should have seen the jaws drop and the rapid and extensive re-evaluation of their attitudes that some people had to do. Quite a few of them later told me that I had completely changed their opinions! This I think was a worthwhile scarifice to make.

Will I go back to "stealth" after medical school - maybe - will I then break out again who knows?

My point is for some of us its not such a big deal either way, and I personally think that this relaxed attitude which allows me to choose is a more comfortable way to live, and one which puts me fully in control.

My only reservation therefore is, someone with whom I'm likely to commit to a longterm relationship, where I just think the logic says that if I love them enough to commit to them in that way, I surely have to respect them enough to share the truth. I've never EVER done casual sex, and I never will. So the idea of declaring to someone who is only going to be a one night stand simply never arises for me. In all honesty though I suspect in that situation I might be less inclined to disclose, but as it will never happen its simple not something I have ever considered.

[CollieLass]

This has been an interesting thread to watch......I thank you all for your enlightening contributions.

Like Jenny, I`ve had many-many years to 'find my footing' with regards to whom I choose to share my life (and past) with.
I am a rather private person, but also enjoy a relaxed, wide and varied circle of friends; and with many of whom I would have no reason to discuss such private matter as one`s former gender identity situation.
The prospect of casual (or shallow) intimacy has never had any appeal, and with regards to 'those that matter', and by that I mean both intimate and non-intimate close friends, there has always been a point in the relationship or friendship, where I feel I wish to share with them (fully) whom I am, for if truth be told; it has been greatly informed by whom I was, and from whence I came!

Progressing a really-close friendship toward intimacy, could only occur after gaining the inner-surety of mutual respect, in sharing that deeply intimate aspect of myself.
In my personal and honest experience, this sentence has always applied: "to those that really matter, 'it' wont matter".

[OCAnne]

Hello Everyone, transition is a process used to get us to the other side.  Once there, do we really need to continue living trans?  I say no, beyond transition we live our lives as a legitimate version of a woman.  Some can bear children, some not. A few might be re-engineered to correct birth defects.  Example: gender issues.  If the plumbing (most) matches the physical gender of a CIS woman, I don't see why telling people anything more would be necessary.

  For those blessed with the opportunity to pass, I say run with it!  Wish I were there with you!  But in my case that's not so and requires a different approach towards dating and sex.

My goal is 'passing' but might not fully come to pass.  Anyone getting involved with me will be made aware of my pre-engineered state.  That would likely weed out the bad guys and leave behind men who are willing to accept the re-engineered for 2015 version of me.  A legitimate woman, with the correct plumbing and a vagina that looks like a vagina, so thus it must be vagina.  Guys should be trilled!

Really speaks to advocating for early transitions getting started quickly and completed as young as possible.  It's much harder learning to be a woman than grow up as one.

Thank you,
Anne

[Evolving Beauty]

I agree with Nicole.

Anyways coming back to the topic well...

1. If it's for 1 night stand, I don't find the necessity saying specially when if it's HE approached me finding me attractive. And I don't think I'm deceiving anyone cos I know right in my head I'm a real woman so I am not deceiving anyone.

2. But if it's for serious and long term stuffs, I try to thrash out asap cos it gets bulky and heavy in my heart specially if they are expecting things as kids with you etc... I know many stealths who are paranoid and hide till their ultimate breath but I've noticed by the end the truth ALWAYS explode. But anyways this is MY style. To each his own now...

[Lady_Oracle]

I don't tell unless asked and I haven't been asked yet.

If what I'm getting into looks like its going to be more than a "bit of fun" I explain to them that I cannot have kids. Most guys are fine with that and leave it.
I know people will look down on me for this, but I've never had a day where I wasn't passing, my vagina is just as passable.

I've been in 1 longer relationship, we broke up because he cheated. I had many talks with my best friend about telling him, but that was a long time before this current trans movement.
These days, I might do it, as long as I would feel safe and my life wouldn't be flipped upside down.

Selfish? sometimes we have to be

pretty much what I think, like I'm still preop but I'm living post transition life and I never come out unless asked but I'm never asked.

[beren_ts]

pretty much what I think, like I'm still preop but I'm living post transition life and I never come out unless asked but I'm never asked.

Count me in Im also preop right now but stealth and hopefully this year or next i will get my srs and live without the fear of getting clocked because of the appearance and shape of my genitals.

[beren_ts]

Totally agree Kelly. Let them run with their naiveté though. One day their world will fall down around them when they least expect it. Anyone born after 1996 is in a data base as both you and I know. The old "I started young and am hot and passable" is simple ridiculous. Here in my state if you have deceptive sex it is a felony, period. Being post op and having sex will get you arrested in the other party finds out somehow and files charges. It is just not worth the risk. Like you said though it will never sink in to them. Oh well.

Maybe thats how it is handled in the US, but it's not the case in germany. Over here we are protected by the laws and clocking us would result in a lawsuit for many people.

And i honestly can't believe that some of you and OP say, we are deceiving people and lying to them if we didnt't tell them the truth. Well the truth is that I am female!!! And that's why i did go trough all of these steps to become physically a female not a transgender female. A female. period!

[janetcgtv]

Stealth is deception to what we are. We have the misfortune of being born male not born female. All we need is one record of our past(anywhere) as a male to get outed. Another way to be outed is being in the hospital (after our SRS) and the medical staff find we have a prostrate gland.
Another would be they find out that we don't have a uterus, Fallopian tubes and ovaries. We could be in the hospital for any reason like an accident or we could be complaining about pain in our bodies. Also don't show up at a high school reunion and brag about beating him at chess and you were the only one that beat him. Watch out for anyone is curious about you but there is no history of you on the internet. Another way would be you had sex with him without telling. he finds out and he carries out his friends opinion. Which means he kills you. Times are slowly getting better where there is more society acceptance.

[Tessa James]

Ethical considerations may be very circumstantial.  People have rationalized all kinds of horror including war and genocide.  My medical history may be relevant to those I am intimate with but not a blank check to access my life records.  Depending on the situation i may disclose or choose not to for my own protection.  I generally think most people can tell I am a person who is trans and I am feeling better all the time about that.

It seems unnecessary to be passing judgment here.  Full disclosure is a very personal choice as is how we see ourselves.  I don't have passing privileges and do not know how I might behave if I did.  If I passed all the time I might very well just go with what "they" think.  You think I'm a pretty girl?  Good, I do too, sometimes.  I feel it is unethical to dis those who have a truth that is different than mine.  I mean, good luck finding universal truth.

It does feel much easier to not have big secrets that I am not willing to share with someone I love.  I firmly believe that the truth really has set me free.  Live your own truth and let others find their own path.