Just how real is all this?

[phdinfunk]

One thing I have had happen a lot, and I know I'm not alone: as an MtF woman, I I have been pegged as a gay dude endlessly.  This started in middle school. Then on to high school, then college. 

I remember one time I met this guy who looked like Sean Penn at a bar.  He started hitting on me.  I was and still am about 90% into women (in other words, about as sexual oriented towards women as anyone you'll meet, but not keeping anything in the shadows about it, lol).

I made it pretty clear I wasn't interested, but he wouldn't take this as a response. He asked me what was "up" with me and I just decided to be honest and tell him I was transgendered.  Hey, why not, right?

Well, Sean Penn decided to be a total jerk about this, telling me that there is no such thing, that I am a guy and I should be proud of it. He leaned in and whispered, "you're going bald, dude.  You need to get real." Of course I was pretty pissed and was more insistent that no, in fact, despite my possibilities of winning a Jason Stathem look-alike contest, I would rather be a woman and I had known this since I was four.  He shook his head and was like, "no, no....  You really need to have a talk with your mother, dude.  You need to get some stuff straight in your head."

Okay,his jerk status aside, what's going on in situations like these?  I presented myself as nothing but a very masculine guy who liked women.  I have always been pretty good looking, maybe not as buff or as cool of a jawline as Stathem, but otherwise, the description isn't too much of an an exaggeration.  Deep voice, not overly clean, loud and outspoken.  Quite masculine, by every standard I can come up with, especially as this was fifteen years ago, before I had ever touched hormones or any kind of transitioning.

I trust mr Sean Penn, the experienced gay hotshot in Atlanta GA to have a functional gaydar system, along with the dozens of other men and women who have also pegged me as being gay, so one might ask "what's the deal, yo?"

I am beginning to explorer he thought of accepting my own INHERENT womanhood as a tangible and real thing about myself. In other words, something which can be seen by anyone who is actually paying attention. And I don't think this comes down to pheromones. There's something deeper.  It messes with people's gaydar because it's just as real to anybody looking a bit beyond the surface.

Here's a story: When I was doing deliveries at the nursing school of my university, I was walking all around campus all day. During this time, I began paying attention to people walking behind me, and something like 100% of the time, I could tell from the sound of the footsteps if it was a man or a woman (even accounting for sneakers, or leather bottomed shoes, whatever). On different surfaces, it didn't matter, but hard-tiled or concrete floors were the easiest to hear it and know INSTANTLY.

I think if you tried it, a lot of people would have similar results. The thing is, it's not WEIGHT (some men are quite small and some women are quite big, right?) Also, even the openly femme gay men I knew (or gaydar detected), they still read as MEN to me when they walked behind me. So, HOW does one tell that? I just wonder if there's something like this that all humans "give off" that others instinctively notice.

About half a decade after paying attention to that, again, presenting as a man, I actually had another women say to me, "You sound like a heavy woman when you walk. It's very strange to me." Now, I guess most people are too asleep to even notice that they noticed something like this, but I appreciated it.  At least she didn't ask me if I was gay, like so many women have. Nor assume I was a closet case, like loads of guys have.

So, I am, after decades of being transgendered, and three attempts at transitioning, really working with the radical idea that being transgendered is something completely real.  Whatever it was I started noticing and feeling when I was four years old is something that is actually true, in fact regardless of how I present myself, and it is just as noticeable by anyone who has any kind of sensitivity as any other quality about me.

Doesn't that just make the most sense?

Lyra

PS: my attempts at transitioning were unsuccessful due to hypersensitivity to blood pressure increases on estrogen.  I am also the only person I have ever met who cannot drink a cup of coffee without curling into the fetal position and promising God I'll never do it again if he just slows my heart down and gets me through this -- no fooling!  So, some things just haven't been in the cards.

[Matthew]

Interesting story, that's definitely something I'll start listening for.

'Twas never something I'd ever really thought of

[phdinfunk]

You mean people who are far too sensitive to coffee or you mean listening to people's footstep so? 

Well, I wouldn't want people to start getting neurotic about it.  It's Just one of the only things I could think of that might have been a "tell" as to why people would read me as they did, despite whatever presentation I put on.

[phdinfunk]

The epilogue is this:  my relationships were all with women, and I wasn't exactly trolling Lesbian hangouts for these girls...

To the last woman, either right after being with me they would go be with other women or else they'd exclusively been with women and would switch to men. There were no exceptions to this for about six or seven years. I literally have referred to myself as "the gateway drug." My exes sometimes agreed.

What's MOST fascinating to me about this is that I wasn't transitioning or anything at the time. I just "presented" as a straight guy.  Nor was I prescreening these girls as lesbians or something.  Normally past relationship status doesn't come up until later on anyways, right?

But it also makes me feel very strongly after all these years that the thing that we feel inside of ourselves which recognizes "Who we really are" is actually a real thing.

I don't mean that in some feel good sense.  I get tired of all the feel-good stuff.  I mean it's an absolute attribute, a FACT we first noticed in ourselves. Why wouldn't others, especially those we are intimate with, also feel it (for now, ignore parents and family because they often come into the game with lots of blinders).

I would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this. Have you had experiences that pointed you to your "actual" gender status having some deep and perceptible truth in it other than just that you preferred that?  I guess, try and keep it along the lines of what I am talking about here.  I am honestly trying to understand this whole situation much better.

[Gingerbell01]

Confused on the point of women going out with men or women after you....is there a third choice? Really though I think they were just playing with both sides of the coin. Nothing on you unless you were so bad with some and so good with others that they switched sides

[Paige]

Hi Lyra,

Here's a story: When I was doing deliveries at the nursing school of my university, I was walking all around campus all day. During this time, I began paying attention to people walking behind me, and something like 100% of the time, I could tell from the sound of the footsteps if it was a man or a woman (even accounting for sneakers, or leather bottomed shoes, whatever). On different surfaces, it didn't matter, but hard-tiled or concrete floors were the easiest to hear it and know INSTANTLY.

I think if you tried it, a lot of people would have similar results. The thing is, it's not WEIGHT (some men are quite small and some women are quite big, right?) Also, even the openly femme gay men I knew (or gaydar detected), they still read as MEN to me when they walked behind me. So, HOW does one tell that? I just wonder if there's something like this that all humans "give off" that others instinctively notice.

About half a decade after paying attention to that, again, presenting as a man, I actually had another women say to me, "You sound like a heavy woman when you walk. It's very strange to me." Now, I guess most people are too asleep to even notice that they noticed something like this, but I appreciated it.  At least she didn't ask me if I was gay, like so many women have. Nor assume I was a closet case, like loads of guys have.

Funny for most of my life I've been told I walk very feminine because I tend to walk more on the balls of my feet.   People would actually comment to my parents when I was young.  They even took me to a podiatrist to try and fix it.  My wife has commented on my walking many times.

To the last woman, either right after being with me they would go be with other women or else they'd exclusively been with women and would switch to men. There were no exceptions to this for about six or seven years. I literally have referred to myself as "the gateway drug." My exes sometimes agreed.

Back in high school, this one woman kept after me for about a year or so.  We hooked up briefly, but there was something odd about the chemistry.  Years later I found out she was a lesbian.  I always wondered if she sensed my femininity and that was why she was so attracted to me.

Interesting post.
Paige

[amber roskamp]

People always just assumed I was a gay man for some reason. I always attributed that to how I talk and my feminine mannerisms which I tried to suppress at ALL times before my transition. Also that I dated for reasons other then just to get action. Like because I genuinely liked women better then men. I also have had interesting experiences with dating gay or bisexual girls before my transition. I didn't have many dates back then to be honest, but all of my girlfriends were queer in some way.

It was weird because I was was an athlete. I was the captain of the varsity football team. I played other sports as well and lifted weights a lot. All those things are considered super masculine things.

After high school I had random gay guys come up and try to hook up with me. I am always kinda like wtf. I don't mean that as a homophobic slur or anything because I love gay people. But I was just kinda confused about whY people just assume I'm a gay guy (when I present male). I also have people just assume I'm a straight trans women never a queer one.

It's making dating hard

[RavenL]

People have always assumed that I was gay as well. Been told many times that I've always had feminine mannerisms. Even had one manager at my work who was openly gay that worked hard to get a date out of me. He was really bad giving me special treatment which is against policy and somehow got away with it. And nine years ago at my former work a really nice older guy started trying to court me. I think his feeling got hurt since I never showed any interest. Al

And as for the walking pattern, I'm pretty good at picking up the sounds also and telling if they are male or female. I've even listened close to mine and its barley a sound since I walk on my balls of my feet.

[Swayallday]

Aww, shucks how some people can't acknowledge you because of their disbelief. It's never fun to hear that your experience is somehow 'unreal'. Seems you're much more outgoing/confident then me in the whole ordeal though O.o

This happens unconciously, I suppose if you intend to look for it then yeah it's neurotic. In games we call it "map awareness". I think some people don't tend to do it else they get bombarbed by everyone around them. Like in huge cities I go on auto-pilot too .

The epilogue is this:  my relationships were all with women, and I wasn't exactly trolling Lesbian hangouts for these girls...

Oh wow  The gateway drug ahahahah now that's a good one. My girlfriends said it was as if they were dating a girlfriend of theirs, they were very confused after breakup and often came back with questions.

[kittenpower]

We are women, so regardless of our outward appearance we still give off feminine energy, so some people will interpret the energy as gay when we are presenting ourselves as masculine, because that is the "obvious" or easiest interpretation for them.

[rachel89]

In school, a lot of people thought I was gay.

[phdinfunk]

We are women, so regardless of our outward appearance we still give off feminine energy, so some people will interpret the energy as gay when we are presenting ourselves as masculine, because that is the "obvious" or easiest interpretation for them.

Kitten power, RIGHT ON.  That's what I'm saying.  And from what everyone else is saying here, I'm thinking that this is a common experience.

It leaves me with the question:

Clearly you're right that we're "Giving off feminine energy."  I mean, there's "something" there and the easiest frame for people to default to is "gay guy."  However, I would really like to understand more about this "something."  What *IS* it?  Some really SUBTLE cues like footsteps or timing of eye flicks or what?

LOL, I know this seems like a fundamental question when we're all doing voice training and trying to get the best dresses to rock, but I really would like to understand this better.

[Marlee]

Even as a male (as I still am for now)  I have been hit upon by gay men many times.  Females, I believe, sense the effeminate in me as well despite my bald head and six-foot frame. I think some people can sense things beyond the physical appearance perhaps.

[phdinfunk]

After high school I had random gay guys come up and try to hook up with me. I am always kinda like wtf. I don't mean that as a homophobic slur or anything because I love gay people. But I was just kinda confused about whY people just assume I'm a gay guy (when I present male). I also have people just assume I'm a straight trans women never a queer one.

It's making dating hard

This is interesting too.  I guess it kind of opens another can of worms, but HOW do people go about making their guesses as to what kind off people you would be attracted to?

If they use whatever esoteric method that works to read whatever this undefiniable thing they understand as "womanly" on someone they interpret as a man, then the brain computer outputs "Gay."  I get that, it actually makes sense to me as a default answer, given (up to now) few cultural examples to the contrary.

But how do people ultimately come to percieve the sexuality of a transgender woman?  Maybe they just read "woman" inside a person whom outwardly interprets as "woman" and so the brain computer outputs, "Straight woman."  That would make sense, I guess.

EXCEPT that it discounts gaydar!!!

LOL, this thread could be taken as an indictment against gaydar in general, but I don't actually think gaydar has anything fundamentally wrong with it.  You watch two guys pass each other on the street and just turn around, lock eyes and.....  it's on.  LOL, sometimes I get a little jealous at the ease. 

Generally the Lesbians I've known (including the ones dated) are a bit more coy with other women.  Many have complained that they "have to be more masculine" when out on the prowl.  The exceptions were the rich hipster swinger couples where, for example, the girl who worked at Goldman Sachs would just grab whichever girl she wanted faster than anything I've ever observed.  But this was also to take home and share with her boyfriend, so that's a different dynamic -- probably more of a "sex club/hookup/PUA" thing.

But how do we know what we know about another person's gender, sexual orientation, whatever?  I cannot just be satisfied with the default answer, "We don't know anything until they choose to tell us."  Experientially, that's BS.  Otherwise everyone would be having to ask everyone if they were attracted to the TYPE of person that they are lest we end up barking up the wrong tree.  But we don't all do this, and most of the time we aren't barking up wrong trees.

Being Trans, I feel like we're cool special cases who kind of monkeywrench the whole system of "normal" and make questions like this even possible.

[phdinfunk]

I think some people can sense things beyond the physical appearance perhaps.

Honestly, I think everyone can, to some degree or another.  Experience at least seems to imply that people are doing this all the time.

[HughE]

We are women, so regardless of our outward appearance we still give off feminine energy, so some people will interpret the energy as gay when we are presenting ourselves as masculine, because that is the "obvious" or easiest interpretation for them.

Although I identify as nonbinary rather than as a woman, that's been exactly my experience too. I think it's because the part of my brain that generates body language is female, and people were seeing a feminine looking man with female body language and immediately assuming that I must be gay. There's something about me that sets off gay men's gaydar anyway, I used to be approached by them everywhere I went. That seems to have stopped since I grew my hair out though, perhaps because, now that my hair is long, people are more likely to see me as a nonpassing trans woman rather than a gay man (or it could just be that I've now reached an age where gay men are no longer interested!).

[KristinaM]

I think a "passing" transperson is like a magnet to a compass.  The whole concept of gaydar just goes haywire and likely can't be calibrated to compensate!

[Rejennyrated]

I think a "passing" transperson is like a magnet to a compass.  The whole concept of gaydar just goes haywire and likely can't be calibrated to compensate!

Interestingly I'm bi, but I get read as Straight by lesbian women, and Lesbian by straight men... I also have an unerring ability, as a 30 years postop woman, to fall for straight women and gay men! So I think you might be right in more ways that one! Trouble is neither option really works for me!

Thankfully, despite all this I have managed to find several meaningful relationships - one of which lasted 25 years and only ended when I was bereaved...