Trans animals

[MugwortPsychonaut]

Has anybody else ever thought of this? I mean, we're trans, or varying degrees of trans. It happens to us, so why not other animals? Then again, it's not like many of them talk, and the ones who do never seem to say anything about it.

[Matthew]

Gender roles aren't forced upon animals, or at least not to their understanding, so I wouldn't say that there would be a way for animals to know nor understand.

[RaptorChops]

It does happen in fish.
With clownfish when the female dies the more alpha male changes into the female. I was curious about it too a few months ago and looked into it a little bit. Also female hyenas can enlarge their clitoris to simulate the male penis. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

[Ms Grace]

Well I have thought that some species of animal would find transition harder than others - can you imagine a peacock dealing with getting its plumage being removed? But other than that it's probably a moot point - animals have very differently arranged biologies, "social" structures (where they exist at all) and thought processes. Yes, homosexual behaviour is extremely common amongst many animal species but as we've long pointed out - sexual behaviour is not gender identity.

Yes, many animal species have extremely differentiated appearances and instinctual behaviours based on their sex chromosomes, but is it a gender differentiation? I don't think so. As humans we've developed very rigid socially based gender structures based around birth assigned sex where conformity is expected (if not mandatory). For most trans people that's where the largest part of their internalised disassociation comes from. Many species have no social structure beyond their tribe/pack and I think they're probably too concerned with staying alive on a day to day basis to have concerns about gender getting in the way.

It does happen in fish.
With clownfish when the female dies the more alpha male changes into the female. I was curious about it too a few months ago and looked into it a little bit. Also female hyenas can enlarge their clitoris to simulate the male penis. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

That's a biological process. In the case of clown fish it's an innate genetic response to an external stimulus, in the case of female hyenas it's because their testosterone is biologically extremely high.

[Kova V]

What about lesbian, gay or Bi animals? I've heard about some male animals mounting other male animals (horses and dogs) but dogs will mount the friendly leg if they're not properly raised.

[suzifrommd]

Humans are the only animals whose brains develop after birth.

For that reason, our brain development doesn't happen in sync with our body. That's why, I would imagine, that our brain gender develops at a different time from our body sex, and therefore in a different hormonal environment.

I'm not sure this is true of animals.

[Ms Grace]

What about lesbian, gay or Bi animals? I've heard about some male animals mounting other male animals (horses and dogs) but dogs will mount the friendly leg if they're not properly raised.

Yes, many species of animal are homosexual/bisexual. But sexuality is not gender identity. Please stay on topic.

[Laura_7]

That's a biological process. In the case of clown fish it's an innate genetic response to an external stimulus...

Well to me the point is there is proof in nature that change of sex is well possible...

[Ms Grace]

Yes, but sadly only if there is a genetic process or catalyst in place for that to happen. All humans start off biologically female in the womb but even though there is a change for slightly more than half of us to biologically male that appears to be a one way street (same with the clown fish I believe). If you could find a way to reverse the change for transwomen and precipitate the change for trans men I'm sure we'd all be very happy. But I'd argue that being biologically able to change sex isn't the same as being transgender. It's not as if the clown fish thinks "I really wish I was a female", it's an environmental catalyst.

[sparrow]

A friend of mine had a dog who fit this description.  Male genitalia but peed like a female, was perpetually getting topped by other male dogs (and seemed to seek that out), was extremely prissy... he didn't just act female, he seemed exaggerate female stereotypes.

Dogs supposedly grow to have the mental capacity of a 4-year old.  How many 4-year olds know that they've been misgendered?  Enough for me to suspect that dogs can be trans.

[Laura_7]

Yes, but sadly only if there is a genetic process or catalyst in place for that to happen. All humans start off biologically female in the womb but even though there is a change for slightly more than half of us to biologically male that appears to be a one way street (same with the clown fish I believe). If you could find a way to reverse the change for transwomen and precipitate the change for trans men I'm sure we'd all be very happy. But I'd argue that being biologically able to change sex isn't the same as being transgender. It's not as if the clown fish thinks "I really wish I was a female", it's an environmental catalyst.

Well to me what is important is the biological possibility.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,149304.msg1682002.html#msg1682002
"Those post-operative male-to-female transsexuals who amuse themselves with the peculiar statement that they still have a penis, but that it's just turned inside-out should note that not only do they not have a penis, but they don't even have skin of the penis any more ....
It also responds to hormones in an identical way as does a normal vagina..."

and I'd say there is some hope for future possibilities...

[Laura_7]

A friend of mine had a dog who fit this description.  Male genitalia but peed like a female, was perpetually getting topped by other male dogs (and seemed to seek that out), was extremely prissy... he didn't just act female, he seemed exaggerate female stereotypes.

Dogs supposedly grow to have the mental capacity of a 4-year old.  How many 4-year olds know that they've been misgendered?  Enough for me to suspect that dogs can be trans.

Yes, you're not the only one There are quite a few people who report similar occurences

hugs

[Ms Grace]

he didn't just act female, he seemed exaggerate female stereotypes.

That may well be true but we should always be careful about applying human behavioural traits to animals. Certain behaviours - like fear or aggression - can be considered universal human and animal behaviours. Everything else is open to human interpretation and, as humans, we nearly always ascribe anthropomorphic traits and behaviours to animals. Leg lifting to pee in canines and is specifically about marking territory and is triggered by hormone changes. It may be the dog had a hormone imbalance. Also, dogs are pack animals - their human family is their pack, if they have only one human then that is their alpha - they acquire behaviour from their pack and their alpha. So "prissy" behaviour may be an acquired trait.

I'm not saying that dogs can't be trans but casual observations and the application of anthropomorphic traits will only confirm what we want to believe about animals rather than getting to the root of their psychology.

[sparrow]

I'm not saying that dogs can't be trans but casual observations and the application of anthropomorphic traits will only confirm what we want to believe about animals rather than getting to the root of their psychology.

Not being a dog person, I don't really have grounds to argue on the nature of dog behavior.  I'm open to the idea that dogs can be transgender based on that single anecdote, coupled with my understanding of canine mental capacity.  Likewise with primates, where I recall hearing of males taking on female roles... where it's hard to say yes or no about a given animal (we can't ask them), I can't take seriously the notion that ->-bleeped-<- is a unique human experience.

[Contravene]

Gender roles aren't forced upon animals, or at least not to their understanding, so I wouldn't say that there would be a way for animals to know nor understand.

Many species actually do have social gender roles. Take lion prides for example where the male is head of the pride and the females are the hunters or wolves where the alpha male and female have different roles. Animals do have gender roles, they just aren't used as a way of stereotyping and degrading a certain gender like how humans typically use gender roles.

I believe there are transgender animals too and the first thing I thought of when I saw the question was hyenas. I remember learning about a particular type, spotted hyenas I think, where the females have the dominant, more masculine gender roles (as compared to other types of hyenas) and they even have genitals that resemble the male's. I wonder if it's possible that type of hyena evolved that way because the transgender members of the species branched off and formed their own group.

[Echo Eve]

It happens to us, so why not other animals?

And there's the rub.

[rachel89]

Is their a genetic basis for being trans? Maybe if their is a genetic sequence that codes for "trans-ness" that can be found in humans, maybe the same genetic sequence could be found in other animals?

[Laura_7]

Is their a genetic basis for being trans? Maybe if their is a genetic sequence that codes for "trans-ness" that can be found in humans, maybe the same genetic sequence could be found in other animals?

Yes... there are parts of the brain different in men and women...
in autopsies transsexual people had the brain parts of the gender they identify with.

hugs

[rachel89]

what about an epigenetic mechanism where genes coding for the masculinization of the brain are "turned off" (I think the proper term might be "methylated") very early on in development (in the case of mtf).

[Laura_7]

what about an epigenetic mechanism where genes coding for the masculinization of the brain are "turned off" (I think the proper term might be "methylated") very early on in development (in the case of mtf).

In the case of sexual orientation an epigenetic connection is presumed.

In the case of gender identity there might be a few different causes... one for example being trigger substances during brain development...