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Yeson voice feminization surgery 2.0

Started by anjaq, July 21, 2015, 07:05:50 AM

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anjaq

I told my boss that I have voice problems and basically let them show also in the weeks before the surgery ( not dropping into a male voice or anything, just not supressing some of the things I supressed normally regarding hoarseness and such). I did not specify. My GP wrote me an official sick leave letter with a general diagnosis of laryngitis and throat inflammation - but in Germany the employer does not get the reason for the sick leave, they just get a form from the doctors that says how long one will be unfit for work. This is to protect employees privacy and health status. After 2 weeks, I got another sick leave letter from my voice ENT specialist, so I effectively had to go back to work 3 weeks after surgery and worked with typing and messanging for the remaining 2 weeks until I used my voice again.
In my case the change was not that drastic, so no big questions came up as to why my voice would be so different, if you get a 100Hz or more pitch increase, well, maybe you need to find a good explanation then ;)

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Ritana

Denjin,

Be careful, Denjin! In my post op consultation, I asked Jessie for a letter stating I had laryngeal surgery to show airport staff.  She said it was included in the patient pack they gave me post op.  When I got to the airport, I had a look at the letter, which I found shocking! It wasn't a letter but more like a report. It stated " This patient has recently had VOICE FEMINISATION SURGERY... " It also explained my voice dysphoria (deep voice!) and past surgeries that I had i.e. FFS, SRS, etc. In other words, "this patient is a transexual" I was so upset that I sent her a quite a disgruntled email about giving me a letter that would definitely out me. In her reply she said it is Yeson's standard practice and that they had never had any complaints about such letters from patients! Needless to say I never -and will never- use such a letter.

Maybe I am different to most transwomen, but for me it's  question of privacy and dignity.

Before you leave the centre, make sure that your letter contains no reference to feminisation or trans related terms. This way you can be sure you won't be outed by such a document.

Rita
A post-op woman
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anjaq

It seems the majority of trans women these days, especially patients of Yeson, seem not to care too much about being very private about their condition. Lots of trans people now seem to favour "standing up" and being out about their issues, filming youtube videos and such. A lot of them are also out by necessity - because they transitioned on the job or because even with VFS they are still recognizeable as trans. It seems to me that generally the kind of trans woman who wants to be "stealth" is less common and Yeson just think its normal to be out. However they have no issues at all if you tell them you are not and will write the statement differently if needed - they also asked me for permission because they had a film crew in the clinic on the examination day I was there for Korean TV , if I would be willing to show myself and say a few words. I would even have gotten a discount on the Botox. But I declined for privacy reasons and afterwards they just assumed I want not to be seen, they also never ever asked me about post OP videos for Youtube or anything.

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Ritana

I don't think they will ask me either.

Many transwomen are out and proud, and that's fine. However, it's their choice to do so. Outing them in a letter (regardless of whether they want it or not) is well out of order. Plus, I don't see why Yeson don't issue their vfs patients with a simple letter stating they've had a Laryngeal surgery and are unable to speak for a month or so. Isn't that the purpose of such a document? Where is patient's confidentiality and privacy? Anyway, i did express my dissatisfaction very explicitely in my communication with Yeson.
A post-op woman
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anjaq

Doctors seem to be like that. My local doctors are always quite liberal with putting "transsexuality" in referral letters for other doctors :( - I had a mammography last year and of course my gyn had to put this on the reference letter that is needed to get this paid for by insurance. It seems that those doctors have some fascination and feel the obligation to share this fascinating fact that a person is trans with their colleaques. I try to avoid this now, but usually they even have some odd explanation on why this is needed and don't want to change it. In case of Yeson it probably is simply that they did not get it at first that some trans people do want to "make a secret" of their trans status

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Ritana

In the case of Yeson it's worse as there is absolutely no need to disclose such info to airport staff! If anything itaymit may increase your chances of being discriminated against. Yeson are probably aware of this universal fact.
A post-op woman
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anjaq

I looked up the letter and what I found was a medical certificate. This one states that I had an ochiectomy and that I had voice feminization surgery. So those are things that could be avoided indeed. I even considered not telling them when and if I had any other trans related surgeries. I now trend towards not telling those things to doctors in standard questionnaires.
However I regarded this certificate to be directed at the doctors at home or maybe health insureance, not airport personnel. At the airport, it is none of there business for how long and why I have no voice. I had that flash card that said something about not being able to speak because of laryngal surgery and I did not even intend to use that uless someone does not speak english. Otherwise I just did not speak, type everything and people were suddenly very friendly because they were dealing with a person that had (at this time) an impairment or disability. So I did not care about that letter really, I never intended to use it anywhere. But I understand that if one wants to use it at the airport or elsewhere, it would be annoying to have trans references on it

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ReDucks

Quote from: anjaq on February 01, 2016, 03:16:16 AM
Ok, I am closing in on my 12 month post op mark. 3 weeks from now it will be one year since the surgery...
I know its still 3 weeks and all that but I think I can assume that the changes until then will not be enourmous.

So what happened to my voice with surgery was not what I expected, I would say, but its still good. What I expected was a significant increase in pitch (+75 Hz), some change in timbre and the inability to go down into a male pitch range, probably some loss at the top end as well - all of this allowing me to speak without thinking in a female pitch and staying there even if I am startled, tired or whatever. I also expected my own perception of my voice to change , so that I would not feel "fake" anymore when I speak or try to change my voice.

Now what happened was that my pitch increased a bit (+35-45 Hz), timbre changed significantly and over time with a lot of unlearning and getting settled, my average pitch stabilized into a low female range and it became less and less straining to speak, compared to pre OP. So most of the time now I do not think about my voice, have not been misgendered or asked about my voice and because of the change in timbre even if my pitch drops very low, I still don't get weird looks. It has overall improved my self confidence a ton, my self perception of the voice is mostly female and I lost that feeling of "faking something" when speaking, which allowed also my inflections and laughing and all sorts of things about my voice to just run free and I guess my "natural femaleness" rushed in to make those good as well :). When I am among other women I do not feel like I stick out because of my voice anymore, giving me a better feeling of belonging.
But some things did not play out as I expected. While in the beginning I was still expecting a slow pitch increase over the months as Dr Kim described it to me, that did not happen. I went up by 35 Hz right at the day of surgery (of course that means 4 weeks later when I was able to speak) and basically changed to possibly 40-45 Hz increase over time - but that is probably more because I changed my speech patterns and inflections. Interestingly though involuntary sounds changed more than I expected (like squeaking when being surprised or moaning or crying). And while my comfortable speaking pitch ("my sweet spot") changed up, my lower vocal range at first decreased (lowest possible pitch went up by the same 30-45 Hz) but then went back, so I now still can reach once more down to about 90-100 Hz. Luckily it is not happening involuntarily though. My upper range at first significantly decreased from over 900 Hz to 750 Hz, but recently seems to be betting a bit better and I found a new way to produce squeaking sounds ("whistle register") at well over 1000 Hz (C6,D6 even E6) for short moments. Not sounding presentable but still - I never could make a sound like that before.
So that surprised me the most. My vocal range did not really change a lot, I still have my lowest lows but my comfortable pitch changed within that pitch range.

This seems to be a bit unique though as I heard from many others that their average pitch did increase by those 75 Hz or even more and that their lower range was indeed cut off significantly. So I am probably not the best "poster case" for this surgery, just wanted to share it as well, maybe also for those who also experience having stil a low range and all that - the cahnges in perception of my voice by myself and others still has changed massively and is liberating - no matter what pitch ranges and average pitch change says ;)



Anja's expectations are pretty much exactly what I was expecting as well.  I gained a bit more in pitch, about 75Hz, but found that I still needed to train my voice to speak consistently and convincingly in a female voice.  It wasn't possible to 'just talk' and gain the pitch elevation.  After months of vocal coaching, I am still unable to just talk without thinking.  That said, it does change the involuntary sounds, I never have my voice crack down into a lower tone, but still have hoarseness and a weird rasp / flute like place that my voice sometimes cracks into.  I also find I can't speak as long on the same mount of breath support at normal speaking tones.

For those that exercise, I can report that under exertion I do notice the impact of narrowing my airway both in needing to get more air, and in a raspy gaspy sort of sound when I am panting for air.

Unfortunately, Yeson wasn't helpful post op, mostly ignoring my emails or responding with information that made no sense.  My therapist tried to reach them with questions and they responded with stuff that she (Jesse) said made no sense vocally and when we asked for clarifications, and sent vocal recordings, they stopped responding. 

Bottom line, I'm glad I had surgery, had I been looking today, I would have gone to Haben just because he's closer (I live in the US).  I think that results vary with either doctor, and that everyone who considers this should be prepared to spend a lot of time in vocal training to get full benefits.  My advice, start with training, if you can't be bothered to keep up with that, then you'll probably not have a great result no matter who you go to.  Don't go thinking it's a simple snip snip and you sound like Jennygirl, it likely won't be like that at all.  Jennygirl had an exceptional result but she also worked hard on her voice and practiced rainbow passage and such a lot to get it to sound that good.  If you aren't willing to do that before surgery, save the money, you probably won't be able to do it after surgery.

My $.02, I still am happy with my results but it I am considering a 2nd surgery to try and fix some of the issues that were highlighted by the Yeson surgery.
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anjaq

Oh - really? Another surgery? What would that be?

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ReDucks

Quote from: anjaq on February 28, 2016, 11:04:41 AM
Oh - really? Another surgery? What would that be?
I'm actually not sure, I have a hope that a little laser can tighten things up a bit and get rid of the buzzy hoarse sounds I hit sometimes, and maybe add a bit more pitch.  I have to get a video of my cords to see what is up there, whether asymmetry or because of my notch or what ever.  I can do nothing and be fine today, but I'm limited in volume and how long I can hold a note before I run out of breath. 
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Denjin

Thanks for sharing your experience, ReDucks.  I hope you are able to get the improvements you want before too long.  The response from Yeson sounds sort of like what I dealt with at Suporn in regards to my GRS - had complications and at some point they basically quit responding to me.

I'm also worried about the constricted airway thing.  I mean, it is a side effect due to what the surgery does, but I've not heard many (anyone but you?) talk about it.  If others share their experience it would be appreciated.  I'm quite active (4-6 miles per day anyway)...
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Denjin

No one else has comments on airway restriction?  I'm just curious since I'm so active...

Two weeks to go here - can't believe how quickly the time has come.  My work how has said it'd be best for me to use statutory sick leave instead of holiday.  That's all great, but I don't really want anyone to know the real reason. Plus, not sure if I can get the letters and all before I go.  Once I get back (and have a Dr. Kim letter which only references laryngeal surgery), I guess I'm covered in some respect.  How did others handle this, if no one 'knows'?
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Dena

The airway is not noticeably restricted as the tie take place out of the way of the air path and is not over 50% of the cord length. If the tie is greater than 50% it alters the quality of the voice.
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anjaq

Quote from: Denjin on March 15, 2016, 12:47:25 PM
My work how has said it'd be best for me to use statutory sick leave instead of holiday.  That's all great, but I don't really want anyone to know the real reason. Plus, not sure if I can get the letters and all before I go.  Once I get back (and have a Dr. Kim letter which only references laryngeal surgery), I guess I'm covered in some respect.  How did others handle this, if no one 'knows'?
Dr Kim can only give you the letter starting the day of the surgery, sadly. So for the days before, you would have to find another solution. Check what the legal issues are regarding foreign country sick leave letters - I believe usually you will have to find a local doctor who will write you unfit for work based on the letter from Dr Kim. Here in Germany, if you get a letter that allows you sick leave from work, that letter never contains the reason for the sick leave, it just states that it is according to medical judgement of the doctor something that is needed. Not sure how this works in your country?

In my case, officially "no one knows" (I am never sure that some people do not suspect or secretly know but its nothing ever openly discussed). What I did was, I got sick leave from my GP for a week prior to VFS - in her files the reason listed is laryngitis. When I came back from Korea, I got a sick leave from a ENT here who knew about my plans to go to Korea and wrote me sick for 2 weeks - in her files I believe it says something about laryngitis as well. So overall I got over 3 weeks of sick leave, but that still meant I had to go to work and be without voice for several days. Even if I would have managed to get sick leave for 4 or 5 weeks, it would certainly have been noticeable that my voice is severly affected. Remember - its not like you have a full voice, then have surgery, recover for 4 weeks and then are fully back to normal.
So I had to announce that I will have a surgery at the larynx that will affect my ability to speak. I kind of prepared people at work to it by actually letting go a bit of my voice control in the months before the surgery which resulted in inreased perceived hoarseness and I used a low volume so it was totally believable that something is wrong with my larynx and voice. I told them I will have this fixed because otherwise it would worsen and it would affect my voice more and more (which sort of is true as my voice was really degrading from the strain I put on it to maintain a feminized voice). I did however not call it voice feminization, did not mention it has to do with trans-something and not even mentioned it will be in Korea. The way I put it out there, everyone probably assumed I have some nodules (and I mentioned asymmetry and vocal tremors as this is what Dr Kim said as well), have that fixed in a hospital here in the city and then will be back to work 2-3 weeks afterwards but still will have to heal a bit more with time.
I cannot guarantee that no one suspected what it was, but no one ever mentioned it specifically or asked more details.

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Denjin

Thanks, Dena and Anja.

Dena - I guess I was worried due to a poster a few posts back who was talking about that issue.  Phlegm build up can cause a similar problem, perhaps that is what they were experiencing.

Anja - Well, I'll have to think of something.  As this is all elective, I'm not sure how I can really claim sick leave.  I think my excuses at work have made people worry about things and they want to 'do the right thing'.  So, maybe I'll just use holiday and talk to HR about some sick leave when I get the letter that mentions voice rest.  Some days off without using holiday time are better than none! :)

I made a number of recordings today so I can compare at a later date.  Basically, the rainbow passage at a 'low' voice, lazy voice, my trained voice, and when I push my trained voice.  Then, my normal trained voice but recording some enunciation sentences and also the Pirates of Penzance.  This should all give me some good baselines to compare with in the distant future I think?    The low recording, which is about as low as I go without sounding fake came out to an average of 157.5.  Be interesting to see what that will be...
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anjaq

Quote from: Denjin on March 16, 2016, 02:51:42 PM
As this is all elective, I'm not sure how I can really claim sick leave.  I think my excuses at work have made people worry about things and they want to 'do the right thing'.
Ok, I know that this is what we are told. That all of this trans stuff is "elective" and that its our choice to do this and that and that because of this we have to pay for it ourselves and also take holidays or unpaid leave to get these things done.
I think this is not right - our condition is one that is not a lifestyle choice or comparable to someone being a bit obese or wanting bigger boobs. Its a condition we are born with, that kills many of us if untreated (like 20-40% suicide rate or what was it) and that causes us to suffer.
Imagine any other woman whose voice would from an accident or a sickness drop to become a male bass voice - do you not think that she should not only get sick leave for the suration of the treatment of this, but also in fact it should be covered by health insurance?
Personally I see it that way - I am a woman who has suffered some horrible changes to her body that are not my fault and the only choice involved now for me is to if I want to risk the surgeries and endure the recovery to reconstruct my body. Sadly it is hard to get insurance to pay for more than the bare needs, so I actually did pay for VFS, but if I had taken the higher risk and had VFS in Germany, my chances for it being fully covered by insurance - including a full sick leave for the initial recovery period, would have been very good if I would have fought for it.


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Denjin

Thanks, Anja

Yes, I agree about the elective thing. But, without telling too much to people they'd probably think it was elective.  Oh well, I'll try and get some days covered anyway!

In regards to the Facebook group.  Is it totally secret?  I suppose in the group is hacked, then the membership could be leaked though...
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Ritana

In my case, I took my 4 week annual leave, plus 3 weeks of unpaid leave on top of that.  Make sure Dr Kim issues you with a letter that doesn't mention "voice feminisation" as thet are very good at that at yeson. They even mention it on the vocal exercises they give you!!  I had a friend of mine visiting the other day, and I had to hide the sheet that I accidentally left on the table. Luckily she didn't pay attention.
A post-op woman
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anjaq

Well - I said I have voice problems and that they would get worse if I do not get a surgical fix. I told the people at work rightfully that I tried voice therapy first, but it was not enough to help the problem, so I agreed to the surgery that my doctor recommended. Since I am also using my voice for presentations and teaching, I think it was pretty clear that a degradation of my voice would not be helping me in the job, so I made it pretty clear that this is not a choice really - the only part of it that I agreed on as being elective was the date of the surgery and I picked one that allowed me to be in recovery phase while there were not many duties for me at work that needed speaking a lot. My boss appreciated that I chose the date that way.
I did not mention trans stuff. I insisted however on it being a necessary treatment and that untreated, my voice would not get better, but rather worse. I think not mentioning trans stuff actually helped because then it gets taken more seriously. I was asked if I had a cancer or something there but I called it "benign excessive growth" only ;)

And there is actually a diagnosis called "Androphonia" in women (excessively low pitched voice) that applies to many non trans women as well. Just saying... they also get "Voice feminization surgery" or "pitch elevation surgery"...

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Ritana

#639
I honestly think it should be called "pitch increasing surgery" as apposed to voice feminisation. The term would be more professional and would describe exactly what the surgery does. Ikate, who was a member here stated that some girls were able to reach 250hz post vfs but were unable to pass on the phone because their psorody was not right. This shows that vfs alone cannot feminise the voice if you don't work at your inflection and the way you speak. What the surgery does- if it is successful- is increase the pitch, no more, no less.
A post-op woman
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