Yeson voice feminization surgery 2.0

[Dena]

The month time would be healing time after surgery so that would be one month after surgery. With Dr Haben it's 8 days after surgery for light usage and 2.5 weeks for normal usage unless something more extensive was done. One woman here is on a 1 month wait like you because Dr Haben need to do something additional for her. What, I don't know but Dr Haben does far more than feminization surgeries and if he sees another problem while he is in there, he will correct it if he can. Sadly he couldn't correct my secondary issue.

The short times Dr Haben gives don't mean the voice is ready to use. I am at the 2 week mark and I am still using paper and pen because the voice is hard to control and weak. I still need more swelling to go down before it will be usable. It wouldn't surprise me if it takes close to a month before my voice is usable.

[Teslagirl]

The month time would be healing time after surgery so that would be one month after surgery. With Dr Haben it's 8 days after surgery for light usage and 2.5 weeks for normal usage unless something more extensive was done. One woman here is on a 1 month wait like you because Dr Haben need to do something additional for her. What, I don't know but Dr Haben does far more than feminization surgeries and if he sees another problem while he is in there, he will correct it if he can. Sadly he couldn't correct my secondary issue.

The short times Dr Haben gives don't mean the voice is ready to use. I am at the 2 week mark and I am still using paper and pen because the voice is hard to control and weak. I still need more swelling to go down before it will be usable. It wouldn't surprise me if it takes close to a month before my voice is usable.

Hello Dena,

I think they're both quite similar. Dr Kim corrected my vocal fold asymmetry as well as dong the VFS and I think he is very aware of and addresses all sorts of vocal issues. VFS is only a part of what he does. Thanks for the info on the waiting period.

[iKate]

Hello again.

Well I got home safely, and jet lag doesn't seem to be a problem much; I just stayed up longer until normal bedtime for the UK. I have had numerous small 'accidents', including a sneeze and I'm just going to wait and see how it finally works out.

Does anyone know if the month without talking includes that week after the surgery, but before seeing Dr Kim for the last time? or does it start from after the final appointment? He gave me more Synatura and five days more tablets to take home with me. I had the botox injections as well, which really don't hurt, but he said I will probably need more at home.

Hi Sarah, glad you're back safe in familiar surroundings.

Vocal rest is required for a minimum of 1 month after surgery. So if you had the surgery on the 1st of July for example you would be able to talk on the 1st of August or thereabouts. The instructions say 1 week of complete silence followed by 3 weeks of minimal usage, which is 2-3 words a day max, or as Dr Kim told me, "emergency only but it's best to remain silent."

It's really frustrating not being able to use the telephone! Not everyone uses email (like my GP) and the only way to contact them is to go physically, which is a real pain.

It was not a big issue for me but I did have some challenges. My GP's office called to say she would be out on holiday for my next appointment so I had to reschedule. I couldn't call and reschedule until I could talk again. I thought you could do it from the iPhone app (healow) but apparently not.

Disciplining children was a challenge but the power of clapping your hands, a whistle, a frowny face and a wagging finger cannot be underestimated.

And of course in New Jersey we cannot pump our own petrol, so we have to talk to the petrol station attendant. Many of them cannot read English and one guy started touching me and tried to make small talk, asking why I can't talk. Well gee, you think if I can't talk and you can't read, I wouldn't be able to answer.. I rolled up my window and drove off when he did that.

By the way, I can see how some people like the subway trains, but I found them always crowded, and certainly when I went, almost unbearably hot and humid despite the air conditioning which was really having a hard time keeping up. I did notice that Koreans only sat by me if there was absolutely no alternative, and sometimes they preferred to stand instead. Taxis are fairly cheap and private, and often the air conditioning is more effective than on subway trains.

I did not find that to be the case. I found them to be a bit cold! Maybe because I'm anemic or maybe because I dress with short skirts and thin clothes and rarely trousers.

People sat by me quite often, they sat by my mum too. Moreso women than men. I don't know why they would avoid you.

I was offered a seat once or twice by men but I don't see much of that as there is in western culture. And occasionally I'd see a drunk here and there. Blech.

The crowds are typically only there during rush hour. Otherwise the trains have room, and seats.

[barbie]

A good thing was using the women-only queue at Incheon security on the way back. I saw a sign saying 'Women' and thought I was required to go that way. It's wonderfully old fashioned, but I was through security much faster than the people (both men and women) who had chosen to use the standard queue.

Nice to hear that you returned home without any serious problem.

Regarding the gendered ques, I usually choose the ques for both men and women.
That is just for convenience as some women prefer female security staffs touching their body.
You can choose any queue, and nothing will happen.

A few years ago, a female security staff happened to see my ID. I entered the queue and there were one female and one male security staff. The female security staff tried to touch my body, and then the staff who saw my ID suddenly shouted like "He is a man!". I was upset, and admonished her not to shout like that way. She just apologized. I guess she was a novice.

The bottom line is that nothing will happen even if a female security touches a male passenger.

barbie~~

[barbie]

The crowds are typically only there during rush hour. Otherwise the trains have room, and seats.

The subway line from the airport to Seoul station is at least crowded, and the line #9 is the most crowded, especially during rush hours.

In the case of iKate, you stayed in Seoul while MERS was the biggest news. I was surprised that the subway train was nearly empty during rush hours. A lot of people drove their own cars to their offices, instead of taking bus or subway. Even the number of passengers greatly decreased in all of the airports here. Now, it becomes normal: crowded subway and airports.

barbie~~

[Dana88]

Hello again.

Well I got home safely, and jet lag doesn't seem to be a problem much; I just stayed up longer until normal bedtime for the UK. I have had numerous small 'accidents', including a sneeze and I'm just going to wait and see how it finally works out.

Does anyone know if the month without talking includes that week after the surgery, but before seeing Dr Kim for the last time? or does it start from after the final appointment? He gave me more Synatura and five days more tablets to take home with me. I had the botox injections as well, which really don't hurt, but he said I will probably need more at home.

Glad to hear you got home safely! And everyone makes little mistakes. Don't worry  .

Also it's four weeks from your surgery date. I even clarified with Jessie because they kept on using one month and four weeks interchangeably and while they can be close, they're technically not the same amount of days. She confirmed that when they say month, they're speaking in 4 week increments. So four weeks after your surgery you can speak again but carefully and no whispering or yelling. Then 8 weeks after surgery you can resume normal function and you begin the exercises they gave you.

[iKate]

So there are a few strange things.

My voice passes 100% unquestionably all the time. Like, I never have to worry. Phone, retail, drive thru. No worries at all. I get talked over and dismissed in conf calls and meetings too. I mean it's good that I pass but it's annoying to have that happen.

However, Praat only has it at 180-205Hz mostly averaging around that. I mean, numbers are meaningless, just the result. But I somehow thought you had to be over like 220.

Also, I have a wee bit of foreign body sensation today. Almost feels like if something is stuck in my throat.  Yesterday and today I had a little feeling of airway restriction. Not that I couldn't breathe but it just felt funny. I will monitor over the next few days and ask Jessie.

But, so far so good.

[Dana88]

So there are a few strange things.

My voice passes 100% unquestionably all the time. Like, I never have to worry. Phone, retail, drive thru. No worries at all. I get talked over and dismissed in conf calls and meetings too. I mean it's good that I pass but it's annoying to have that happen.

However, Praat only has it at 180-205Hz mostly averaging around that. I mean, numbers are meaningless, just the result. But I somehow thought you had to be over like 220.

Also, I have a wee bit of foreign body sensation today. Almost feels like if something is stuck in my throat.  Yesterday and today I had a little feeling of airway restriction. Not that I couldn't breathe but it just felt funny. I will monitor over the next few days and ask Jessie.

But, so far so good.

If you look online it actually puts the start of an average female fundamental frequency starts at 165 and goes to 255. There was another girl who got surgery at Yeson who said she was pushing her voice up to the 220s, and then eventually found that settling around an average of 175 actually sounded more feminine and natural and gave her more room for female prosody and cadence.

Also I had a three week follow up with a Laryngologist back home in NYC today. She said I'm healing well. Took some photos that I'm gonna forward to Dr. Kim. I can speak again so soon I can taste it!

[iKate]

If you look online it actually puts the start of an average female fundamental frequency starts at 165 and goes to 255. There was another girl who got surgery at Yeson who said she was pushing her voice up to the 220s, and then eventually found that settling around an average of 175 actually sounded more feminine and natural and gave her more room for female prosody and cadence.

That's true. I guess my concern is that I hope I sound like a woman and not a little boy. I heard one woman here who went to yeson got a pitch in the 230s and still sounds male. I record myself sometimes and it sounds good so I guess I'm worried over nothing.

Also I notice that I sometimes go up to 220-230 speaking with prosody. I actually don't even think about prosody now, it just pretty much happens.

Also I had a three week follow up with a Laryngologist back home in NYC today. She said I'm healing well. Took some photos that I'm gonna forward to Dr. Kim. I can speak again so soon I can taste it!

Good to know. They recommend one 4 months post op for me. Zil said she could give me a referral. I think at this point unless I have some incident like shouting or emergency medical care requiring intubation I will just wait until month 4.

[Dana88]

Good to know. They recommend one 4 months post op for me. Zil said she could give me a referral. I think at this point unless I have some incident like shouting or emergency medical care requiring intubation I will just wait until month 4.

Yeah the only reason I went is because I have terrible allergies. This is the issue I mentioned before where normally I take Allegra-D but they said no decongestants so I switched to regular Allegra. Since I switched I've had so much chest congestion and phlegm, so by the end of the day my throat feels raw and irritated even if I haven't been clearing or coughing. So I just wanted to make sure that issue wasn't interfering with healing. Though literally on the camera she could see the mucus sitting in my airway just beyond my vocal cords. It was crazy. But she said I'm healing well and it's just allergies. There's no infection or anything. So basically, it's a nuisance and just try and grin and bear it for the next ten days and don't get too worked up over it.

[Dena]

That's true. I guess my concern is that I hope I sound like a woman and not a little boy. I heard one woman here who went to yeson got a pitch in the 230s and still sounds male. I record myself sometimes and it sounds good so I guess I'm worried over nothing.

IKate, I am a terrible lying so I always tell the truth. The truth is you are far to worried about pitch and that voice will not be gendered as male. There is a woman at work who has a voice far lower than that and the only reason somebody might call her sir it the fact she is running the company. They don't call her sir because of her voice. My voice at worst will be centered around 190hz and at best 210z. The doctor gave me as much of a push as he could taking 40% of the cords but healing is going to determine what my final number will be. He didn't suggest a triple for additional pitch and he is comfortable that is acceptable for a female voice. On top of that, the final voice may take 2 to 3 months to emerge so your voice may be a bit higher a month from now.

Also, a little boy voice would be a much higher pitch than were you are. Children are up in the neighborhood of 300hz. Both male and female voices drop in pitch due to our growth. Male voices take a even deeper dive because of the exposure to T. We are talking about a pretty small difference in frequency between all of these voices but the brain some how or another has evolved to detect these differences giving us age and gender from pitch and speech pattern.
If you look at the chart in the link, you will see that the ambiguous and female ranges overlap a good deal. What separates the two and what you have is the female speech pattern. In theory you could go still lower with your voice and it would be gendered female. Believe what others are telling you and that is your voice is great.
http://www.nyspeechandvoicelab.net/transgender/voice-feminization/

[Dana88]

IKate, I am a terrible lying so I always tell the truth. The truth is you are far to worried about pitch and that voice will not be gendered as male. There is a woman at work who has a voice far lower than that and the only reason somebody might call her sir it the fact she is running the company. They don't call her sir because of her voice. My voice at worst will be centered around 190hz and at best 210z. The doctor gave me as much of a push as he could taking 40% of the cords but healing is going to determine what my final number will be. He didn't suggest a triple for additional pitch and he is comfortable that is acceptable for a female voice. On top of that, the final voice may take 2 to 3 months to emerge so your voice may be a bit higher a month from now.

Also, a little boy voice would be a much higher pitch than were you are. Children are up in the neighborhood of 300hz. Both male and female voices drop in pitch due to our growth. Male voices take a even deeper dive because of the exposure to T. We are talking about a pretty small difference in frequency between all of these voices but the brain some how or another has evolved to detect these differences giving us age and gender from pitch and speech pattern.
If you look at the chart in the link, you will see that the ambiguous and female ranges overlap a good deal. What separates the two and what you have is the female speech pattern. In theory you could go still lower with your voice and it would be gendered female. Believe what others are telling you and that is your voice is great.
http://www.nyspeechandvoicelab.net/transgender/voice-feminization/

^^^ All of this.

[iKate]

Yeah I guess. It all boils down to other self image issues I've been having lately. I think I will be fine.

I have that chart on my phone saved, I refer to it whenever I do a praat recording. I guess I should just depend on human feedback more.

[kwala]

Yeah I guess. It all boils down to other self image issues I've been having lately. I think I will be fine.

I have that chart on my phone saved, I refer to it whenever I do a praat recording. I guess I should just depend on human feedback more.

I agree with the others.  Hyper-focusing in terms of pitch is a bad idea.  Don't forget that pitch in terms of notes increases exponentially so the higher you go the larger the numerical hertz difference between two intervals that, musically speaking, might be as small as a half step.  Cis-women do experience a voice drop during puberty and also incrementally with age so picking a number on the hertz scale that you may have read is "average" female pitch and obsessing over it is counterintuitive to your end goal

[anjaq]

I think the main reason I focus about pitch these days is that my present pitch is just not that far away from my pre op pitch. I think maybe 30 Hz. Depending on how I speak, its not even that, or it can be 80Hz. I am totally aware there are a dozend other voice parameters that count for being gendered correctly, but amost all of those dont have to do with surgery or dont need surgery - so basically I dont expect them to change much with surgery.
Voice surgery of the kind done at Yeson is described often as pitch raising surgery, so clearly a focus of all patients is on pitch - I think its not all true, because something else also changes about te voice - maybe it also has to do with a pitch - the pitch of the undertones or overtones of the voice - in the perception, this shifts the timbre of the voice and changes the perceived vocal gender in that way even if average speaking pitch did not change too much.

[Dana88]

Yeah I guess. It all boils down to other self image issues I've been having lately. I think I will be fine.

I have that chart on my phone saved, I refer to it whenever I do a praat recording. I guess I should just depend on human feedback more.

Also remember, you're not even really supposed to get a huge pitch increase until between 8 and 24 weeks postop. So the fact that you even have a 30/40 hz bump before the 8 week mark and have a voice already that passes as female on the phone is wonderful.

[iKate]

I think the main reason I focus about pitch these days is that my present pitch is just not that far away from my pre op pitch. I think maybe 30 Hz. Depending on how I speak, its not even that, or it can be 80Hz. I am totally aware there are a dozend other voice parameters that count for being gendered correctly, but amost all of those dont have to do with surgery or dont need surgery - so basically I dont expect them to change much with surgery.
Voice surgery of the kind done at Yeson is described often as pitch raising surgery, so clearly a focus of all patients is on pitch - I think its not all true, because something else also changes about te voice - maybe it also has to do with a pitch - the pitch of the undertones or overtones of the voice - in the perception, this shifts the timbre of the voice and changes the perceived vocal gender in that way even if average speaking pitch did not change too much.

Well there is more than just a pitch increase. I think the greatest aspect of feminization with glottoplasty is that they effectively created a high pass filter to attenuate the lower undertones. I think that is more powerful than just the pitch increase alone. Someone told me its as if there was an equalizer on my voice and the bass was turned way down and the treble slightly increased. Mom says my voice sounds unmistakably feminine yet familiar. 

[iKate]

Also remember, you're not even really supposed to get a huge pitch increase until between 8 and 24 weeks postop. So the fact that you even have a 30/40 hz bump before the 8 week mark and have a voice already that passes as female on the phone is wonderful.

That's true. Jessie also said the exercises will help too. Come on month 2!

[anjaq]

I agree on that equalizer analogy - thats exactly what happened and what makes a big difference now for me. I did not really have much pitch inrease in those 24 weeks. Basically it's about the same as it was at the 6 week mark and I am now at about 5 1/2 months. Maybe it shifted by 10 Hz or so, but its hard to say. I am getting mor used to using the pitch a bit better - not falling back so often completely to my old pitch, but I dont really feel I had much physical change, more a mental adaptation.

However more healing has to come, I hope. I am still sounding a bit husky and if I have a conversation over a longer time, like 1-2 hours in the car while driving, my voice can give up completely. I had that happen yesterday. It recovered after half an hour of being silent , drinking a lot, talking some throat pastilles - but the rest of the evening, I had a bit of a sore throat - I hope this will eventually pass.

[iKate]

I had a bit of a long conversation with friends at a bbq and radio club meeting yesterday. My voice didn't tire at all but I kept the volume down. I asked for opinions and one of the ladies said "you sound perfect" and one of the guys gave me a look and said "very close to how a woman would sound." For 1 month I'm not complaining but I think he was a bit biased because he knew

Not complaining because the voice completely passed at Roy Rogers and a farm stand I bought some veggies from.