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Yeson voice feminization surgery 2.0

Started by anjaq, July 21, 2015, 07:05:50 AM

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anjaq

Oh, she said in some video or post that she increased her pitch higher with training post op beyond the change that Dr Kim did for her? I did not know that. But for sure, in singing ones voice is most likely higher than in speaking. If I sing even withoout notes, just chants or mantras or such, my voice tends to be higher, I usually go a lot into head voice, too... which I avoid while speaking. But that was not so much the point - I think one prejudice about voice surgery is that it makes you unable to sing. One surgeon even told me that outright and another implicated it by saying my vocal range would be minimal (he does CTA only). Obviously that is not so, at least with Dr Kim and Remarcle, given that at least 4 or 5 people have shown that they can sing really well after surgery with Dr Kim and Cristal has shown that singing is possible after Remarcles surgery, too, although of course her recording shows still signs of a voice that needs healing a lot - Amys video which was after 5 months being post op also had still some hints of healing that has to go on in it (which happened later and now she is back to singing professionally). It seems that a post glottoplasty voice with some surgeons can be trained to be a good singing voice too.

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Dana88

So I am ALMOST at the 8 week mark. Three and a half days away. I feel like my voice has REALLY turned a corner this week. It doesn't get tired nearly as easily, and even when it does it regains strength much faster, also clarity and strength are coming back rapidly. The pitch has definitely stabilized even a little higher than it was and feels consistent, and then it seems that my upper range is starting to come back allowing for greater inflection in my speech. I'll record and post a new vocaroo on Monday when I officially hit the 2 month mark and I'm also gonna do a new Praat measurement then :-). Oh and also, I sing sing. So once my singing voice is back in order I'll record myself at the piano and post that as well. But obviously that won't be on Monday :-P.


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~Dana
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iKate

Tomorrow will be week 10 for me.

The breathiness is fading and I feel as my voice is more or less just a normal female voice now.

Can't say how much pitch extra I've gained with the exercises but it seems about the same, except maybe finer in quality.

My upper range is steadily increasing. I can sing a number of songs but not Mariah Carey high. Not yet, anyway, lol. In fact in the car I sing all the time. :)

The best part is laughing though. Laughs are feminine as they can be.
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Dana88


Quote from: iKate on September 03, 2015, 12:49:24 PM
Tomorrow will be week 10 for me.

The breathiness is fading and I feel as my voice is more or less just a normal female voice now.

Can't say how much pitch extra I've gained with the exercises but it seems about the same, except maybe finer in quality.

My upper range is steadily increasing. I can sing a number of songs but not Mariah Carey high. Not yet, anyway, lol. In fact in the car I sing all the time. :)

The best part is laughing though. Laughs are feminine as they can be.

Awesome :-). This makes me hopeful for my singing voice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
~Dana
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Dana88

So... I couldn't resist measuring my fundamental frequency today... I'M UP TO 238 hz!  :o :laugh:

I knew my voice was starting to naturally and more consistently sit higher, but I didn't realize it was THAT high. So that makes it an 86 hz bump in pitch so far  :).
~Dana
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kwala

Quote from: Dana88 on September 03, 2015, 03:46:04 PM
So... I couldn't resist measuring my fundamental frequency today... I'M UP TO 238 hz!  :o :laugh:

I knew my voice was starting to naturally and more consistently sit higher, but I didn't realize it was THAT high. So that makes it an 86 hz bump in pitch so far  :).
That's great!  Off topic, but are you the same Dana that wrote music for MADAME?
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Dana88

Quote from: kwala on September 03, 2015, 04:49:40 PM
That's great!  Off topic, but are you the same Dana that wrote music for MADAME?

Yes! Haha how'd you hear of MADAME? :-)


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~Dana
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kwala

Quote from: Dana88 on September 03, 2015, 04:50:44 PM
Yes! Haha how'd you hear of MADAME? :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My friends and I are musical theatre junkies and one of them was talking about it not so long ago and I just put it together :) 
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Dana88


Quote from: kwala on September 03, 2015, 05:08:54 PM
My friends and I are musical theatre junkies and one of them was talking about it not so long ago and I just put it together :)

Nice! Well I hope you've enjoyed what you've heard :-).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
~Dana
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anjaq

Did anyone else of the recent patients get past the Botox stage yet? I was told again yesterday that my voice was better in week 8 or 10 than now in terms of clarity and breathiness. My suspicion is that the clonazepam is not even close to the effect of the Botox in terms of calming down my muscles that distort my voice. And I have about 2 weeks of Clonazepam left, then this is gone, too and I am getting a bit scared of that point. I think so one so far did get another Botox shot and only once I heard that Dr Kim was actually agreeing on it being a good idea, or did anyone get that feedback - to get another Botox? I know doctors here who are using Botox to treat vocal tremors (spasmodic dysphonia), so I could probably get a shot if I go to them and wonder if this makes still any sense after 6 months....

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Dena

Quote from: anjaq on September 04, 2015, 06:20:42 AM
Did anyone else of the recent patients get past the Botox stage yet? I was told again yesterday that my voice was better in week 8 or 10 than now in terms of clarity and breathiness. My suspicion is that the clonazepam is not even close to the effect of the Botox in terms of calming down my muscles that distort my voice. And I have about 2 weeks of Clonazepam left, then this is gone, too and I am getting a bit scared of that point. I think so one so far did get another Botox shot and only once I heard that Dr Kim was actually agreeing on it being a good idea, or did anyone get that feedback - to get another Botox? I know doctors here who are using Botox to treat vocal tremors (spasmodic dysphonia), so I could probably get a shot if I go to them and wonder if this makes still any sense after 6 months....
Unless you are going to continue with Botox every few months, at some point you will need to control the voice without Botox. Your voice should be healed enough by the time you run out of Clonazepam that it would be time for you to try to make the voice work without drugs. You might also consider an appointment with a doctor who could provide Botox for a second opinion on the current state of your voice issues. Between Dr Kim, your speech therapist and a local voice doctor you should be able to gather enough information to know what is possible and what you need.
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anjaq

Well honestly I dont think the Clonazepam is helping me enough. Maybe I missed the opportunity when the Botox was going away after only 3 months already to get used to the voice change and get along without the Botox well enough. I suppose the Botox was supposed to break old patterns of muscle use, and it did not act long enough maybe... So far, Dr kim does not want me to get Botox, just the Clonazepam.... I will see in 2 weeks what happens when it runs out. I have a tiny hope tat maybe it is also relaxing some muscles I need for making a good voice and in that case getting off would actually improve some things. I doubt my voice therapist would think it is a good idea to Botox either, she is in favour of doing more training and relaxation exercises to get this right. Of course, in training hours things always actually do get better, just it easily slips away soon after...
 
I considered Yoga or something like that - it helped me relaxing my voice pre op some of the times I did it.

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Dena

Quote from: anjaq on September 04, 2015, 02:40:12 PM
Of course, in training hours things always actually do get better, just it easily slips away soon after...
You hit the nail on the head for me. My voice falls naturally below the sweet spot but it requires only a small amount of effort to push it up to the sweet spot. Before surgery I had the habit of paying attention to my voice as bad as it was. With the almost 2 week of voice rest and my problem of losing the sweet spot after only a few minutes of conversation, I fear getting lazy and needing to relearn the discipline I developed over many years of using the voice.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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anjaq

I struggle to really find the "sweet spot" - but I know that much of the time I am probably below it in speaking because I get a strain in my throat after a while that feels like I am talking too low - I can reproduce it much faster when I try deliberately to talk really low...
The stupid thing is, to talk deliberately higher than I would normally seems to cause my throat to hurt in the way I know from pre VFS when I had to push up pitch all the time, so some muscles will strain in pushing up pitch.

My guess is, that I should talk a bit higher in pitch than I often do, but somehow make my brain forget what it still seems to think it has to do to get there - to use this muscle power to push up pitch. Because its probably not needed and rather distorts the voice now. But it seems to me that my brain still is in the old patterns: If I want to relax my voice, pitch goes down in a range that was relaxing before VFS but now is actually straining. If I want to speak at a bit higher pitch, which should probably be where my voice is best now, my brain still thinks it needs to use muscle force and tension to push pitch in that area, even though now after VFS that is not needed.

I understood Dr Kim that way that the Botox and then the Clonazepam kind of are supposed to "reset" that behaviour of the brain. Obviously its not that easy for me, given I used my voice that way for 17 years. This is why I was thinking Botox again to double that "Reset Effect" maybe...

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Dena

For me it's not so much pitching the cords but keeping the larynx muscles tight. Lack us use cause me to get out of practice and I relax the muscles dropping the pitch to about 170Hz. Moving the larynx where it belongs move me between 200 and 210Hz. The chest voice is about 140Hz so it doesn't take a math major to know where I want my voice  ;D
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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anjaq

Your chest voice is 140 Hz before VFS or now???

I am also taking about the throat muscles - they are changing the shape and position of the larynx and I still seem to do this in a forceful way too often (because I want a higher pitch maybe, or maybe just if I am speaking at a higher pitch out of reflex). And all therapists so far told me that I should relax them. Not doing the "forced feminization" of the voice that I would do before the surgery , but just let go of those habits, because they cause breathiness and dysphonia and vocal tremors now...

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Dena

My chest voice was 80 Hz before surgery and 140 Hz after surgery the last time I checked. Dr Haben told me to expect a 60 to 80 Hz change in my voice and I am seeing the 60 Hz in the chest voice. I am doing a bit better with my feminine voice with between a 70 and 80 Hz improvement. I was around 130 Hz before surgery and now am between 200 and 210 Hz at about 8 weeks after surgery. Not bad considering I couldn't have more than a 40% tie and that may have been pushing it.

The only changes I used with my voice were to move the larynx up and for a few months I used the falsetto. I didn't have the vocal range in my voice to pitch the voce higher using cord tension alone. When I attempted it I chopped the little inflection I was able to add to the voice and sounded monotone. I had no idea how confined my voice was until I came to this web site and learned how different a normal voice was from mine. My post surgical voice is vastly different from the old voice because if I wish, I can now pitch it with cord tension alone without becoming monotone.

I know there is some swelling still going on because my voce has been fading pretty quickly when I use it much so I am waiting until the 3 month mark before really mapping the new voice out. If I still have fade at that point, I may need to wait until the 6 month mark for valid numbers. Dr Haben indicated it might take up to 6 months for the final voice and I already know I am healing slower than some of the others who have seen Dr Haben.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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anjaq

Quote from: Dena on September 05, 2015, 09:12:43 AM
My chest voice was 80 Hz before surgery and 140 Hz after surgery the last time I checked. Dr Haben told me to expect a 60 to 80 Hz change in my voice and I am seeing the 60 Hz in the chest voice. I am doing a bit better with my feminine voice with between a 70 and 80 Hz improvement. I was around 130 Hz before surgery and now am between 200 and 210 Hz at about 8 weeks after surgery.

So you do have two different voices now, just as before? I was kind of told by Dr Kim to not use a "feminized voice" but just to use my relaxed voice, which would be my chest voice. So you add a voice training and deliberate pitch increase in the form of a trained feminine voice to the effect of the surgery to get to the 200 Hz range?

What are you doing when you talk about using your feminine voice now?

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Dena

I think I still have all 4 voices but I haven't played with the upper 2 because I am unstable enough in the lower two. I use a mouth/head voice by tightening up the muscles above the larynx. Putting you hand gently on the larynx you will feel the larynx move up when done correctly. Before surgery that would give me around a 50Hz improvement over my 80Hz chest voice and it's the voice you commented that it sounds male. Post surgically that action seems to be giving me a bigger boost. If I don't don't tighten my muscles correctly, my voices will drop to the 170Hz range. Adding in the vocal cords I can push the pitch to near 400Hz without attempting a falsetto like voice.

I ask Dr Haben in person exactly which voice I was to use and that was his answer. The chest voice would never cut it for me as it was little better than what I used for the last 35 years. The limit of the surgery, at least the way Dr Haben does it is a 80Hz boost in you voice. Some people might do a bit better and some worst depending on a number of factors. I didn't have CTA because as I saw it my range would be limited and the small bump in additional pitch wasn't worth the loss of range. Had Dr Haben recommended CTA and provided better outcome, I would have written a check on the spot.

To show you why I am so stunned by the surgery, this is what I send to Dr Haben.
Lowest usable note 80Hz, male speaking voice was above that.
Mouth voice 130-196Hz
Falsetto voice 155-237Hz
Whistler voice 250-490Hz
Now for equal time, had Dr Kim done the same 40% tie, I would have expected much the same results.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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iKate

I don't really measure Hz anymore but people (my friends) say my voice is higher compared to 2 weeks ago. One of them was confused when talking to me tonight and thought he had the wrong number. :p

I'm doing the exercises religiously now and they do have an effect.

Breathiness is less but I have a little to play with and I can add it on demand pretty much and it doesn't sound false or fake at all.

Really really happy with my result. Even in my worst guy drag like when I go to Lowe's to buy lumber and drywall I'm gendered female now.
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