Lots of talk about surgery but little about voice therapy. Therapy not work?

[cindianna_jones]

From a different perspective.... I know a cis woman who's pitch is right in the golden zone for an alto. She is one of the few who knows I'm trans. Absolutely  nothing wrong where that is concerned. But she talks like a man, dresses like a man, has blinding large boobs and has a butch haircut. She is not a lesbian. She gets mistaken for a guy quite often.

She never says anything about it other than "Oh that? It happens all the time. I don't care."

Go figure.

Cindi

[iKate]

Cindi, I think your voice is pretty good. If I didn't know you were trans I'd have given you the benefit of the doubt.

Your intonation and prosody helps more than just pitch. I have no idea what your pitch is but I think the feminine aspect is not that pitch dependent

[cindianna_jones]

Cindi, I think your voice is pretty good. If I didn't know you were trans I'd have given you the benefit of the doubt.

Your intonation and prosody helps more than just pitch. I have no idea what your pitch is but I think the feminine aspect is not that pitch dependent

I finally looked up prosody to see the real meaning. Seriously. I thought I had it in all the context here on the board but I had to look it up. Thank you for the comment. It is who I am and and what my voice has been for 28 years. It got me through okay.

Cindi

[iKate]

I finally looked up prosody to see the real meaning. Seriously. I thought I had it in all the context here on the board but I had to look it up. Thank you for the comment. It is who I am and has been for 28 years.

Cindi

I had it too before HRT but the estrogen may have altered my wiring as I just became more sing songy.

[Dena]

Cindi, while both samples sound feminine, you have something in your voice that they never taught in speech therapy. When your voice drops, you tend to have Glottal Fry which make it sound like you are working at the bottom of your range. When you move into the upper pitches, it's smooth and sounds exactly like the the transition would sound in a woman's voice. Your ear might be mistaking the Fry for a low voice but it's something  much different in that it tells the ear that's as low as the voice goes. Because the fry isn't forced, it shouldn't damage your voice. Voice damage would result when a man is attempting to have a gruff voice by forcing the fry at a loud volume.

If I were you, I wouldn't attempt to alter the Fry because it isn't causing any harm, it make your voice unique and the only way around the fry might require pushing your voice even higher putting you in an uncomfortable pitch.

[bibilinda]

Cindi, while both samples sound feminine, you have something in your voice that they never taught in speech therapy. When your voice drops, you tend to have Glottal Fry which make it sound like you are working at the bottom of your range. When you move into the upper pitches, it's smooth and sounds exactly like the the transition would sound in a woman's voice. Your ear might be mistaking the Fry for a low voice but it's something  much different in that it tells the ear that's as low as the voice goes. Because the fry isn't forced, it shouldn't damage your voice. Voice damage would result when a man is attempting to have a gruff voice by forcing the fry at a loud volume.

If I were you, I wouldn't attempt to alter the Fry because it isn't causing any harm, it make your voice unique and the only way around the fry might require pushing your voice even higher putting you in an uncomfortable pitch.

This is interesting. Glottal Fry. Never heard that term before. I looked it up and I found out that it is just another synonym for the more popular term "Vocal Fry".

Lately I have discovered that THE BEST MTF voices I've ever heard, ALWAYS have vocal fry at the end of most of their sentences. So I have tried that myself, speaking lower than that so-called prototype feminine average pitch, A3 (220 Hertz), in order to get that natural vocal fry at the end of my own sentences, and I've discovered that I do get that when I average as low as F#3 or G3 (185-200 Hertz) and this is my more natural feminine voice because it sounds clearer, with very little "weird resonance", but the problem is that it is androgynous at best because I speak super-montone, since I am not comfortble doing exaggerated inflections until I LIKE my resonance. When I go as high as averaging G#3 or A3 (210-220 Hertz), I sound very weird, fake, like I have some strange illness in my throat that creates a strange gender-ambiguous voice, where it can sometimes sound clearly feminine and sometimes a bit masculine and of course I hate the latter.

I was tempted to post a sample of that voice I am describing, the one averaging about G#3 to A3, but both my voice and accent are so pathetic that I refrained from doing it.

Cheers

Bibi B.

[iKate]

I have natural fry and I think it's annoying. I mentioned it to Dr Kim, he put it on my chart but I don't think he did or recommended anything to fix it.

[AbbyKat]

What always frustrates me is when people on videos (and in forums) say to "simply remove the resonance from your voice by raising pitch gradually", etc.  I don't get it.  I can speak in a super high pitch but I still have full resonance even when I've tried "pinching my voice" and finding my break and working my way backwards.  No matter what exercise I've seen, I can do it just like them but never get rid of the resonance.

My wife just bought me the Andrea James Survival Kit for voices and I'll see if that will be different.  I'm willing to work for it but it's just hard to hear my recordings and imagine my voice ever sounding like some of those I hear. 

It's like some kind of magic trick that nobody can explain properly to the rest of us.

[cindianna_jones]

Is she or isn't she? I had to watch some of her other videos to be sure.

Cindi

[Dena]

What always frustrates me is when people on videos (and in forums) say to "simply remove the resonance from your voice by raising pitch gradually", etc.  I don't get it.  I can speak in a super high pitch but I still have full resonance even when I've tried "pinching my voice" and finding my break and working my way backwards.  No matter what exercise I've seen, I can do it just like them but never get rid of the resonance.

My wife just bought me the Andrea James Survival Kit for voices and I'll see if that will be different.  I'm willing to work for it but it's just hard to hear my recordings and imagine my voice ever sounding like some of those I hear. 

It's like some kind of magic trick that nobody can explain properly to the rest of us.

The only two tricks I know for changing your resonance is to raise your larynx when speaking and to some degree you can control it a little with your mouth configuration. For the most part we are pretty well stuck with what we have and that's why people have different voices even when they speak with the same pitch and same accent. On the other hand, often the lower tones add to a female voice giving it a quality that can be described and warm, full or sexy so it is best to have others judge your voice for these qualities.

[bibilinda]

Is she or isn't she? I had to watch some of her other videos to be sure.

Cindi

What, cis? I think she is cis, but then again, I tend to see everybody as cis except for myself. But (and this is uncalled for, sorry) even though she has a longish face, her whole facial shape (almost perfectly feminine-oval), eye size and separation, flawless feminine forehead and of course the voice, do tell me she is cis. If she is trans though, I might as well give up on transitioning right away because I don't think I will ever be able to look like that even with the most expensive FFS out there lol.

If that wasn't even the question, please do tell me, to delete this probably absurd comment of mine.

Cheers

Bibi B.

P.S. What I find almost unbelievable is that that video is approaching one million views... some of my favorite songs, played on MTV, radio or whatever, don't have as many views!!!

[Qrachel]

Hi -

I went to a well known speech pathologist who works with singers and others and worked with him every week for about 5 months - it really helped.  However, he was quite honest and said I wouldn't get into the 'normal' feminine range.  After a lot of practice, 2 years, I was somewhat passable and that's where I've been for 12 years.  It hasn't been a huge problem and I'm a very public person professionally, but I'd love to not to get sir'd on the phone that first time.  (It's interesting though, as that moment always opens an opportunity to get better related, except when I'm dead-dog tired and want to hear, "Hi ma'am/hun/sweety/ . . . blah, blah, blah" - sigh)

I think voice surgery has improved to the point that I'm willing to risk it.  I'm older of course now and at my age that is a factor, but all things considered I'm seriously considering both voice and FFS.

Take good care and best of everything,

Rachel

[iKate]

Even with voice surgery; resonance is still an issue. There was a woman here who said she was at 250Hz yet still sounded male.

I have no idea what to do as I'm just lucky my resonance is feminine enough but J-Mi and others have said that they speak from the throat or similar. I don't know. I do know that FYFV has tips on how to deal with resonance.

[iKate]

Is she or isn't she? I had to watch some of her other videos to be sure.

Cindi

She could be cis she could be trans but I'm leaning toward cis.

[Dena]

Even with voice surgery; resonance is still an issue. There was a woman here who said she was at 250Hz yet still sounded male.

I have no idea what to do as I'm just lucky my resonance is feminine enough but J-Mi and others have said that they speak from the throat or similar. I don't know. I do know that FYFV has tips on how to deal with resonance.

I heard that voice and it wasn't resonance that was the problem. She was working at a higher pitch than she should have and it sounded monotone. Proper therapy would have lowered the pitch, added inflection and feminine speech patterns changing the voice to a very feminine one. Pitch isn't everything as women with very low voices have proven.

The human ear and mind look for a number of things to determine the gender of a voice and you need to get in the habit of listing to others peoples voices to hear these little bits. Sometimes I will hear something in a voice I haven't heard before and I stop to ask what I just heard and what did it tell me. That happens often when I hear a voice recorded here and it just isn't working for some reason. You have to ask yourself what is there and what isn't. The answer will tell you what the voice needs to be fixed.

[anjaq]

When your voice drops, you tend to have Glottal Fry which make it sound like you are working at the bottom of your range.

this can actually be really helpful in terms of gender perception. People pick up on these clues, so if you get into vocal fry at the same pitch range as other women do, it gives the impression that this is your lower end of the pitch range, which in turn means that the voice is not gendered male so easily, because a male voice would be able to go deeper and not have vocal fry already at a high pitch. Some people actually trained theit voices to give that expression. Of course it depends on there that happens, pitchwise.

What always frustrates me is when people on videos (and in forums) say to "simply remove the resonance from your voice by raising pitch gradually", etc.  I don't get it.  I can speak in a super high pitch but I still have full resonance

Can you show me how to do that? LOL - Yeson told me I am not having enough resonance in my voice and should try to get a lot more resonance into it. I am not sure if this is because I supressed resonance for 15 years too much or what - but apparently I cannot really do good resonance. However I think that it is not so much about getting rid of resonance - which also works to feminize the voice but then it becomes thin and weak - but to change resonance to a different pattern.
I am at a loss right now, too as to how to resore resonance, but do it in a way that will not reactivate some long forgotten male resonance maybe...

[cindianna_jones]

Anjaq, the resonance issue for you is most interesting. I mean, I'm sorry you are dealing with that, but I'm curious as to why your normal speech is lacking in it. Perhaps it is in your explanation, but if you would feel more comfortable, could you post a link to your current normal speaking voice? I'm sure it's around here in another thread.

Cindi

[anjaq]

I posted some clips here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,153931.msg1733903.html#msg1733903

The remark of the SLT at Yeson was directed at the voice exercises though, they did not say my speaking voice was bad, although I know it is - because people keep asking me if I am getting a cold or something else

[anjaq]

That's right I think the reason was it was a super-forced sounding voice that sounded mostly like a reinforced falsetto rather than mixed voice. But I think I remember this lady said she was recovering from voice surgery and it wasn't six months yet, which is the very minimum time to start seeing permanent results. So my guess is she was still healing.

I am pretty sure I remember, it was after 12 months.

[laura.cornwell.779]

When I was about eight years old, my brother gave me a tape recorder. When I recorded my natural voice, I was stunned at the playback. The feminine voice that I heard was not what I expected. Through out my life I have been read as a woman on the phone. Without any training, I have a natural female voice.

I did participate in a voice study at George Washington University. With an endoscopic exam that was part of the study, the doctor found that I do have vocal chords that are indistinguishable from a genetic woman's.

I did discuss surgical options while walking with one of the other doctors from one building to another on campus. Her opinion leaned towards training. She expressed concern over medical mistakes that can happen, a risk in any surgical option.

I went to a Thai surgeon for GRS. One of the patient's results were not to her liking. Our surgeon was one of the most highly recommended in the world's trans community. To be fair, I have no complaints. However, this is a good example of what can happen in the operating room theater. Problems occur. Patient expectations are sometimes not met.

I would give voice training serious thought. Many of us will never pass perfectly. Learning to accept this and not allowing it to overwhelm or destroy our lives is an aspect of transitional maturity that is just as important as to how perfectly we feel our surgical alterations have made us "bullet proof" in the eyes of strangers who we will probably never see again.

Allowing our vanity to control our lives to the point of bankruptcy or over the top surgical procedures, can be a destructive force in anyone's life, trans or otherwise. Cheerfully enjoying our lives is a better option than thinking perfection is our ONLY option. Moderation, in all things....

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