Gender identity question

[emerry]

I'm really sorry about this selfish question, but I just must ask.

I don't know if I am non-binary or not. Like, I'm always questioning it. It tires me. It's been so for at least 3 years. I ask myself too much.

I really don't like traditional gender roles (especially the female one, with being a calm houswife etc...), which makes a lot of background noise, unfortunately, so I can't tell how I really feel about being female. I have a lot of dislike for it due to expectations I hate.

So I went through some video and I'm going to write a response to questions in it.

If all being female means would be having female reproductive organs, I'd be fine with it. Only if they didn't torture me every month... But no uterus (or a kinder one) would be nice. I like my breasts, actually. I don't like them to show through sometimes, but I like them. I kinda hate my face being so round and soft. I wouldn't like a more masculine face, just a thinner one. I hate body hair too. I'm tired of shaving, though, I gave up. I don't like my round hips and would prefer them to be narrow and slim. I like my hair being long. So what I would prefer to be is a woman with less sex characteristics? More like a 13-y-o girl? But, em, unfortunately, there is no way to achieve it.

Do I not feel female? - And how does one tell it? Really, abstract question for me. I sometimes feel female, but it's not a thing 24/7. I identify with feminism, women's rights, women's bathrooms, changing rooms, the concept of having female reproductive organs. On a more mental level, I guess I don't. I sometimes more identify with men than women, but I'm not sure there if it's gender identity or just sharing views and ways of thinking. (I'm not very stereotypical  )

Gender started being a thing for me when I started menstruating. Before I didn't ever think about it, and perceived myself as a girly girl, wore pink etc., even though I now figure that climbing trees, rnning and yelling wasn't a thing "girly girls" do. Then I started making up all kinds of stories where a girl pretended to be a guy, was treated in a genderless way, or I could sit in a guy's head straightforward. The stories, now as I recall them, mediate something with the spirit of felling alien in one's body and some caricature of monstruous menstruation. Even now I still feel as if something yucky, scary and alien stuck between my legs, but I feel this way only if I look at my vagina, so I try not to. When I was a little girl, I didn't ever take interest in my vagina and it looked. It looked neater and smaller though. I don't have a problem with having sex. I don't like when the guy looks at my genitals. They're gross. My upper part is nicer. Period. But it's not a problem for me.

I'm jealous that men can buy certain articles of clothing I can't, and generally have plainer fashion, but it's not that I want look like a man. It's too bulky for me. I like being sweet and delicate, but in all over in frills too. Plain and simple, adorable. Men's t-shirts are WAY better then women's. And shorts - they're not shorty shorts and must be way more comfy. I like some dresses - the dress must be plain and simple or I won't wear it. Suits are always a good option, IMO. I like this kind of well defined lines. Coco Chanel syndrome, I guess. You know - she always hated laces and frills too, and invented women's trousers and little black dress with pearls.

Pressuring myself to try hard enough to like being a woman - em, Idk. I've done a lot to prove myself I make a good woman, again - it's social pressure. This time for sure. I wanted to pursue an artistic career only to show I am better at being feminine than others. I like some feminine stuff too  E.g. cooking is quite cool. Or dressing like a hot chick (makeup, dress, heels...), but only from time to time. I'm too busy with other things to do it everyday, and I can even feel awful quite often if I dress in soemthing too feminine. I need to be sure it is the day I feel feminine, because on those days I feel good in such clothing. If not - disaster granted. Jeans and a t-shirt are a safer option. I  wear little makeup usually and like to feminise my face - emphasise eyes and lips, but not brows.

Again, I have a huge issue with gender roles, and don't want to be pressured to conform to them. I wanna stress it is a really, really big issue for me for others not to see me as a caretaker etc, but somebody logical and to the point.

[emerry]

I wanted to add that I like to confuse others about my gender. It feels awsome. And something wierd but positive happens when I look in the mirror when I confuse even my own brain.

[Devlyn]

I also like when people are confused about my gender. 

Hugs, Devlyn

[HoneyStrums]

Why do you feel as though you need a label.

To not dress how you dont want to? and to dress how you like?
To not do what you dont want to? and to do what you like?


Or that you are somthing different because you dont conform to the steriotype?

[sam1234]

you sound very confused it anything. If you like having breasts, then I don't think you would be a candidate for a gender reassignment program.

From what you put down, it sounds like the traditional female roles are what you are really upset with. You don't need to follow those tranditional roles. There are plenty of woment working outside of the house and wearing anything from dresses to business suits with ties. The only person you have to seek approval with is yourself.

If you don't have a therapist, it might be time to get one. Getting help is not a sign of weakness. Sometimes you just need another person to ask the right questions and help you figure out where you stand.

I wish you luck.

sam1234

[emerry]

Gender reassignment? No. I have never considered it seriously. All Im asking is if Im genderqueer, and a lot of genderqueer people dont transition or dont have body dysphoria. At least thats how it seems on the internet. Maybe its a wrong place to ask this sort of questions. The thing is, I dont really see how one can feel gender not based on social interactions or ways of thinking? I dont really feel like a woman but I identify with it (sort of...)? Em, confusing.

And therapy doesnt help me with this, unfortunately.

[Dena]

You are the only one who can say for sure, but I think you are non-binary on the female end of the spectrum. Gender queer and gender fluid are two labels that might apply to you. i am pretty new to the non-binary idea but to me it sounds like fluid might be a closer match because sometimes you want a male like appearance but other times you want to do the female thing. There are people on this web site that wear both labels and I have seen several born women who are comfortable with their body but desire a more masculine image. You should be looking around in the non-binary section and I think you will find people of like mind.

[emerry]

Thank you all for replies.

I think now... There must be a lot of different people who feel like gender doesn't apply to them that much , whether they are dysphoric or not, and whatever their gender expression (trans, cis, fem, masc, andro...)

And why I ask this is that I'm trying to find a name or a concept for what's up with me, but I find only "transgender' and "genderqueer", which are quite irrelevant. How I identify or feel about my genitals is quite irrelevant, so let's leave it alone, yet everybody keeps on talking about it as if it was the most important thing

[kellb]

Hi Emerry

In many ways I feel similar to you (on the masculine end).  I've been fishing about for a label, too - I first settled on bi-gender, since it seemed to capture the emotional loading I was after, but after coming here I feel that non-binary might be a better word for it.

Ultimately, it's up to you to be the person you want to be.  You don't have to prove femininity to anyone (even yourself!).  You don't have to deny yourself mannish clothing if that's what takes your fancy.  I'm happy to look like a male and talk 'bloke' at work, but wear a lacey shawl and flowers in my hair at home.  I can choose the best bit of each gender; you can choose the bits that appeal to you.  Fortunately, it's much easier to pull off while still presenting as a female - tom boy is always in fashion.

Your personal sense of self doesn't have to be fixed in stone, either.  I find my gender balance fluctuates throughout the day - sometimes quite rapidly.  If you feel more like trousers in the morning and a staid dress in the evening, well, why not?

I don't care so much for appearing ambiguous, but I absolutely -adore- the idea that Gender-with-a-capital-G doesn't apply to me.  I'm not playing the game.  I'm not in the running.  I'm not part of the hierarchy.  I'm just me, sitting out here on my own.

I agree that often there is too much focus on sexual characteristics.  The gender in our heads is most important to our sense of who we are.  Whether our bodies align or not is a bigger complication for some than others.  It took me much longer to accept I'm mentally non-binary than it did for me to accept my body dysphoria.

[Allison Wunderland]

I'm just sorting this out -- "presentation" at 67.

Women can present either. Men can't wear dresses. But even dressed ambig. it's clear I'm cis-M. I've "passed" in public as F, from a distance, no social engagement. It feels like a disguise.

But then there are edges I cross, unthinking sometimes, sometimes intentionally. Long hair, earrings, uni-sex stuff. I've watched children not be able to determine my gender. I'm fine in the middle, BUT I'm not sexually active. That makes a huge difference, not needing to interact w/ a partner.

Gender is a continuum, wide space in the middle, and the option for variation in presentation/orientation over time.

Not simple, but in a very real sense liberating and creative.

[Tiffers]

I was AFAB and I am androgyne.  I don't follow many of the "traditional gender roles" and never had my whole life.  I have no desire to take hormones or physically change my body, but I identify more as male than female and present as very androgynous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sam1234]

I think you can feel gender that is not based on societal norms or opinions. Gender is partly physical and partly mental. Even though society starts to have an effect on how we think and act, its more complicated than that. I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but I do think that very small children identify with one gender or another before society starts to have much to do with it.

sam1234

[Asche]

I do think that very small children identify with one gender or another before society starts to have much to do with it.

I'd agree that some children identify with one gender or the other at a very young age.  I know several trans people who report knowing their inner gender at age two or three.  However, children are drenched in society's ideas of gender from birth on, so there's no "before society starts to have much to do with it."

Of course, being drenched in society's ideas doesn't mean you go along with who they say you are.  Most children by age two or three have a pretty clear idea what boys are and what girls are; IMHO, what happens with (early-identifying) trans kids is that they decide which they are based on that idea, but it isn't what the people around them believe they are.

And some of us (like me) never identified with one gender or another.  Gender was just one of those things that got imposed upon us, like homework or required athletics -- or the rules inside a prison.

[Dena]

I'd agree that some children identify with one gender or the other at a very young age.  I know several trans people who report knowing their inner gender at age two or three.  However, children are drenched in society's ideas of gender from birth on, so there's no "before society starts to have much to do with it."

Of course, being drenched in society's ideas doesn't mean you go along with who they say you are.  Most children by age two or three have a pretty clear idea what boys are and what girls are; IMHO, what happens with (early-identifying) trans kids is that they decide which they are based on that idea, but it isn't what the people around them believe they are.

And some of us (like me) never identified with one gender or another.  Gender was just one of those things that got imposed upon us, like homework or required athletics -- or the rules inside a prison.

I can understand where you are coming from because before puberty I didn't really feel male or female so I tried to learn the male role as that was what my body was. My behavior was feminine but a good shot of hormones was the most brutally truthful thing that happened in my life. I could have continued living as a male but not really understanding the role but not after puberty.

[Lady Smith]

As a young child growing up I was aware that there were 'girls' and 'boys', but mostly because that was what I was told by the 'big people' and society in general.  As to what the physical difference between boys and girls was I didn't really have a clue apart from girls generally having longer hair and wearing dresses (This was the late 1950s and 1960s by the way).  As I became older I had the lesson pressed upon me that certain kinds of boys were more likely to hit you and physically hurt you.  Forgive me for saying so as I access my childhood memories, but these seemed more likely to be the 'stupid' ones who didn't pay attention to the teacher and were always getting into trouble in class.

Then came the experience of seeing boys I'd known for years start to mysteriously turn into uncooth gangling alien creatures.  Eventually after the doctors got at me I also began to experience puberty which I can only described as being confusing and nightmarish.  When I finally had my orchie over 20 years ago now I can remember that even 4 or 5 hours after surgery the sense of blessed relief at my mind being no longer murdered by T was absolute bliss.  Being forced by my own hormones into becoming male as a teenager when I had no real consciousness of gender seemed like a huge cosmic joke at my expense.  Now that I've got past having to live the standard TG narrative in order to dodge the gatekeepers I'm able to relax and simply be myself which is wonderful.

[sam1234]

Some of it may have to do with when you were born and how your parent's brought you up. I was born in the early sixties. My parents had three kids. They thought they had two boys and one girl lol. They never separated us based on gender though. Presents given to us were never stereotypically boy or girl oriented, and none of us were kept from playing any gender related sports.

One of my earliest memories was before even starting school. I'd wake up in the night having to urinate, sit on the toilet and be overcome with the fear that if I urinated, it would go straight forward and I'd pee on the floor. It was so intense that I'd go back to bed without urinating and wind up wetting the bed. I know a lot of guys sit before they learn to stand, and no one ever told me the difference back then, yet it was still a fear.

I do think that once in school, we are bombarded by society as far as gender. Girl's bathrooms vs boy's bathrooms. Different boy uniforms for gym if you had them.

That being said, there have been mothers who have forced their male children to wear dresses and they have come out of it still male. This is one of those cases where I don't think you can quantify how much of gender is already ingrained before birth as opposed to how much is learned by society.

sam1234

[SheaD]

Like you, OP, I was born with female anatomy that I mostly feel ok with or have come to terms with but have never given much thought to gender. I was always a tomboy but did like some 'girly' things at a very young age. I seemed to become more gender neutral or androgynous as I got older, despite puberty.

Gender is a social construct, which means it has everything to do with expression, roles, and how you relate to others, from every technical definition I can find. So if you get along best, in a friendship, with people who identify as male, you understand how to interact with them, you understand them, and generally feel like one of the guys (or, with female-identified, and feel like one of the girls), then you might also identify as male (or female). This doesn't work for everyone, but it makes sense to me.

I don't really fit in with "the guys" or "the girls". Neither make sense to me. I can tend to blend in with the guys a bit more as a wallflower, since I'm not especially girly in expression and therefore can't blend as well with "the girls", at least the girly girls. I'm not completely awkward all the time; I do best in mixed groups.

I'm having a really hard time recently with " masculine" and "feminine". They technically mean " male-like" and "female-like", respectively. All female and male mean is having the related sexual characteristics, aka genitalia, hormones, and other physical features. But gender is specifically about everything except the physical. But gender was built based on the sexes, gender roles based on the sexes, etc. So that's what it's become.

Which just means I don't know what it means to " feel" female or feminine or masculine or male. All I know is I'm me, I'm sometimes comfortable being perceived as female sometimes not, and sometimes comfortable being male and sometimes not. I've been using the term genderfluid but am feeling more like this is inadequate. Gender-questioning is the only thing that makes sense right now. I suppose I'm leaning towards gender neutral with an androgynous appearance, but I don't like the term androgyne. Couldn't tell you why.

If it was left up to physical traits only, I have no problem being a female. A woman? A wife? The gender roles assigned to the female sex? I don't identify with these.

In a world where women are in the work place and taking on previously male characteristics, and men are being prompted more and more to experience their emotions, be more nurturing, etc, I really don't see why we need gender at all any more. Gender as a societal construct is breaking down; gender roles and expressions are no longer one or the other.

[Allison Wunderland]

Like you, OP, I was born with female anatomy that I mostly feel ok with or have come to terms with but have never given much thought to gender. I was always a tomboy but did like some 'girly' things at a very young age. I seemed to become more gender neutral or androgynous as I got older, despite puberty.

Gender is a social construct, which means it has everything to do with expression, roles, and how you relate to others, from every technical definition I can find. So if you get along best, in a friendship, with people who identify as male, you understand how to interact with them, you understand them, and generally feel like one of the guys (or, with female-identified, and feel like one of the girls), then you might also identify as male (or female). This doesn't work for everyone, but it makes sense to me.

I don't really fit in with "the guys" or "the girls". Neither make sense to me. I can tend to blend in with the guys a bit more as a wallflower, since I'm not especially girly in expression and therefore can't blend as well with "the girls", at least the girly girls. I'm not completely awkward all the time; I do best in mixed groups.

I'm having a really hard time recently with " masculine" and "feminine". They technically mean " male-like" and "female-like", respectively. All female and male mean is having the related sexual characteristics, aka genitalia, hormones, and other physical features. But gender is specifically about everything except the physical. But gender was built based on the sexes, gender roles based on the sexes, etc. So that's what it's become.

Which just means I don't know what it means to " feel" female or feminine or masculine or male. All I know is I'm me, I'm sometimes comfortable being perceived as female sometimes not, and sometimes comfortable being male and sometimes not. I've been using the term genderfluid but am feeling more like this is inadequate. Gender-questioning is the only thing that makes sense right now. I suppose I'm leaning towards gender neutral with an androgynous appearance, but I don't like the term androgyne. Couldn't tell you why.

If it was left up to physical traits only, I have no problem being a female. A woman? A wife? The gender roles assigned to the female sex? I don't identify with these.

In a world where women are in the work place and taking on previously male characteristics, and men are being prompted more and more to experience their emotions, be more nurturing, etc, I really don't see why we need gender at all any more. Gender as a societal construct is breaking down; gender roles and expressions are no longer one or the other.

What SheaD said, only turned inside out and applied to growing up cis-M.

-- Except that I am often uncomfortable in the "male ID," not altogether comfortable being male. Not sexually active, because I'm conflicted about male sexuality. Not husband, not father, alienated by a lot of male stereotypical cultural "norms."

In an ideal world we would not be stuck with one or the other, as determined by HORMONES. We hate the androgens, hate the physical effects, hate the behavioral effects. (Watch the [aggressive sexual] behavior of any male of any species outside humans!)

Ideally "no gender" -- or the option to decide according to mood and occasion.

Most people don't think about their gender most of the time. We're stuck thinking about our gender all the time.

[sam1234]

There is gender cross over in most people. Little boys often try on their mother's clothes and girl's try Dad's clothes. Freaking out about it doesn't do the kids any good.

There are gender "roles", but I'm not convinced its entirely socially oriented. Kids gravitate towards one gender or another very early on. I do understand the concept of not feeling like you fit into either gender. I know I don't fit into the female gender, but a small part of me feels left out of the male gender. That part is social and has to do with missing out on early male life lessons.

The rest of my "maleness" was always there, even prior to school. My parents treated all three of us the same, banning the same toys for all of us. (GI Joe comes to mind, mainly because they associated it with violence and at the time, the Vietnam war was going on).

There are degrees of gender identity even within each gender. Males can be super macho and females can be very prim. Most don't fall all the way into either and are closer to the middle where gender is still easily identifiable, but not to the point of making people wonder what they are trying to prove. In the center is androgeny.

sam1234

[Lady Smith]

Back before I transitioned and my two children were small I was hanging out the day's washing (two wee tots generate a lot of dirty laundry!) and one of the guys from work called by.  He was horrified that I was 'doing women's work' which made me think he was a bit of a pratt truth be told.  I pointed out that marriage was a partnership and since the washing needed to be done and my wife was busy with other housework I figured that the best way to help was to do the washing.

He went away shaking his head and I did a little head shaking of my own because I was glad I wasn't like him.

Of course when I came out a few months later I would imagine that answered everybody's questions as to why I didn't seem to be a 'regular guy'.