Androgyne Frame of Reference: Part II

[Jaimey]

you've unleashed quite a beast with this topic, no_id.     it is pretty interesting to see how different our individual interpretations are.

[no_id]

An in-between Evaluation

When I started the first thread of the Androgyne Frame of Reference I did not know, did not have the slightest clue of what it was I exactly wanted to achieve -- I was unaware of my motivation[...] Nevertheless, after reading, re-reading and observing the dots located in my brain (that connect rather sporadically) I realised my objective, and due to the current outcome I can nearly bapthisize it as an utopic objective...

To establish a group identity, to expand a group identity, to create understanding, acceptance, to expand views -- to reply to the oral misunderstanding (that has roamed these forums recently) -- with not discussion, with not conflict, but with answers -- elaboration; common understanding; language, words, symbols and emotion/passion that is human, not spurious.

An utopic objective I wrote; a fantastical goal which process, once put into effect, only seems to achieve the opposite; segregation, misunderstanding, hither and thither even some bitterness, differentiation, variation, alienation -- disassciation, detatchment. A glass ball shattered -- shards spread around the floor and retrieved by different individuals -- while I cannot help but wonder if it will be put back together again[...]

Did I find my answer?... Maybe I found more than I desired. Then again, wouldn't that be a Utopia just as well?... Perhaps that is my place.

[NickSister]

I think you have done something really good with this thread no_id. Despite the differences of opinion you can feel everyone getting together to try and come to some common understanding. I would not be too worried about the fragmented nature of our frames of reference. This is a start and I think in time our frame of reference will change to include themes like belonging, acceptance, value, talent etc..

I think the big issue in this thread has been the question about what does androgyne actually include? Does androgyne include the bigenders and the null-gendered (and other?) ? I think it should. For starters there are few enough of us as there is and there is strength in numbers. Also I think we do share a lot in terms of our frames of reference and face many of the same issues.  Perhaps a good definition for androgyne as a group might be anyone that does not have a gender identity that is only male or only female?

[Kaimialana]

I appologize for making a mess of everything No_ID.

[RebeccaFog]

   I forgot what we were doing.  But then I realized that this thread is more about the votes.  As long as people vote honestly, we should be okay.

   What do the votes say? or, is it too early to process them?

[Seshatneferw]

I think you have done something really good with this thread no_id.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Cheers for no_id!

Perhaps a good definition for androgyne as a group might be anyone that does not have a gender identity that is only male or only female?

Again, yes. I don't really care what word we use for it, but it seems clear that we need some sort of an inclusive group identity for people who don't fit in the binary gender system. Androgyne is as good a name as any, so we might as well go with it -- especially since that's the way it is described in Susan's list of standard terms for these forums.

That said, it's also pretty clear that we need a more detailed terminology of the various identities lumped under 'androgyne'. I'm not sure we need all that much discussion to refine that terminology, but if we do, that discussion might be split into a new thread.

I appologize for making a mess of everything No_ID.

No and no. First, you didn't make a mess but rather a couple of important contributions to the discussion -- thank you for doing so. Second, if you feel it was a mess, the rest of us (up to and including any deities around, since you say 'everything'  ) should share the blame. Third, if you really want to feel bad, the rest of us could jump on you for misspelling apologise.  >

  Nfr

[no_id]

   I forgot what we were doing.  But then I realized that this thread is more about the votes.  As long as people vote honestly, we should be okay.

   What do the votes say? or, is it too early to process them?

I'll work on an overview. Meanwhile, I would still like to see everyone's list of words mentioned in the FoR that they feel alienated to. (Yes, I do have some ideas, but need to expand them; Nfr's request to refine terminology plays a good role in it).

No worries Kaimialana; chaos is a rather natural process when dealing with unknown factors -- all the more why it is sometimes important to attempt to get everything back on track. However, that is something we'll need to achieve altogether, and I believe that this is a good start. Hence; cheers to you all.

[Pica Pica]

take off the hippy ->-bleeped-<- like divine and transcendent, and i'm there.

[Kaimialana]

No and no. First, you didn't make a mess but rather a couple of important contributions to the discussion -- thank you for doing so. Second, if you feel it was a mess, the rest of us (up to and including any deities around, since you say 'everything'  ) should share the blame. Third, if you really want to feel bad, the rest of us could jump on you for misspelling apologise.  >

  Nfr

That figures. I suck at spelling.

[no_id]

Let's take a look at the following:

Divine, Spiritual, Transcendent, Childlike, Naïve

Why do you feel these are fit or unfit (KK already elaborated - thank you for that) ?

[Seshatneferw]

Let's see.

Divine? There's nothing divine in being androgyne, although the reverse can be argued -- a God who's supposed to have created the whole humankind as His image cannot very well be only male or only female. That isn't nearly enough for including 'divine' in the frame, though.

Spiritual? Well, if you interpret that very boradly, I guess this could be applicable, in a 'know thyself' kind of sense. Still, not really.

Transcendent? This is getting closer, and to some extent I can agree with it, in the sense of transcending the traditional gender system.

Childlike? Maybe. I recognise some such traits in myself, including a certain reluctance or refusal to grow up. I've never associated it with my gender issues, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that they are related somehow.

Naïve? I'm not so sure I qualify any more. Moreover, in gender issues my remaining naivete is balanced by a by now well developed cynicism.

Other than these, the only one I'm not sure about is Not socially constructed. That's mainly because I didn't quite understand what that was intended to mean; certainly, I don't identify with the normal socially constructed genders, but on the other hand the social aspect of gender is just where my androgyne identity is strongest.

  Nfr

[RebeccaFog]

   I'm fine with things the way they are, but then, I tend to settle easily.

Divine
For me, Divine has meaning beyond the deity related ones.
   Divine as in supremely good or superb. Exquisite.
   it can be a verb like to divine, to sort out, figure, or to glean in a way which may appear mysterious or supernatural, but is not supernatural of course.

Spiritual
    In a Jungian sense.  To be complete.

Transcendent
    Beyond convention.

Childlike
    Able to believe what I feel.

Naïve
    I base this word on how I feel when I see others interacting in ways that I know of but cannot really grasp. I tend to be taken by surprise a lot by other people's actions.
      Maybe this is just a personal trait.

    I guess Childlike, Transcendent, Spiritual, and Divine are qualities that I associate with my femininity along with being intuitive.  And so, I don't know if it's a valid thing to do, but I guess I'm trying to squeeze aspects of my feminine nature into some of the words I like for the FoR.
   I don't associate religion or mysticism with any of the words. I have a theory that much of the language used for spiritual matters exists because the words weren't available for psychological terms until the past hundred or so years. I tend to forget words with more than four letters in them and so I revert to the words of the ancients.
   Maybe we can find alternate modern words or something.

My point of view.

[Emerald]

Childlike, Naive, Spiritual, Transcendent, Divine - It looks a progressive scale!
Is that the reason that all Androgynes do not relate to each word on this list? 

Perhaps this may help us to understand and discover the answers....
The one thing all Androgynes share in common is a lack of gender identification or a gender bias for one binary gender in preference to other binary gender. Androgynes feel an equal amount of internal 'maleness' and 'femaleness' which can range from 'nothing/nothing', to 'half and half', and beyond to 'all and all'.

A quick illustration:
Male and Female gender is often depicted on a continuum. Androgyne is a middle point on the Male-Female continuum, bisecting the Male/Female line in the center.

M----------------A-----------------F

Ah, but Androgyne is on another continuum also... it's OWN continuum.

Transcendent
|
|
|
M-----------------A-----------------F
|
|
|
Null-Gender

The Androgyne continuum ranges from a 'nothing/nothing' Null-Gender Androgyne experience at one end of the continuum, a 'half and half' or '50/50' Intergender(?) Androgyne experience in the middle, to an 'all and all' Transcendent/Divine Androgyne experience on the opposite end of the continuum.

Likewise, gender dysphoria may range from agonizing body dysmorphic symptoms of Null-gendered/Neutrois Androgynes to gender euphoric for Transcendent Androgynes.

Childlike, Naive, Spiritual, Transcendent, Divine...
Perhaps these words are part of an Androgyne Continuum also?

-----------------------------
Per request:

Each of these words fits my own gender experience and is most strongly felt in the words Spiritual, Transcendent, and Divine... Transcendent in particular.

Childlike - of or befitting a child as in innocence, honesty, guilelessness, simplicity or candor.
Naive - willingness to trust, freedom from self-consciousness, natural, childlike, simple goodness, simplicity of nature, absence of artificiality.
Spiritual - of or pertaining to the spirit, soul, mind or intellect, as distinguished from the body or physical nature, lacking material body form or substance.
Transcendent - free from constraints of the physical, beyond or outside the ordinary range of human experience or understanding, exceeding or surpassing usual limits especially in excellence, divine.
Divine - Supremely good, pleasant, beautiful or magnificent, surpassing excellence, characteristic of or befitting a deity, angelic.

Male-gendered or Female-gendered individuals would not likely associate any of these terms on this list with their own experience because all these words are non-gender specific. All the words are generally considered to be positive traits and virtues in any human.... or earthly angel. 

-Emerald 

[Jaimey]

   I'm fine with things the way they are, but then, I tend to settle easily.

Divine
For me, Divine has meaning beyond the deity related ones.
   Divine as in supremely good or superb. Exquisite.
   it can be a verb like to divine, to sort out, figure, or to glean in a way which may appear mysterious or supernatural, but is not supernatural of course.

Spiritual
    In a Jungian sense.  To be complete.

Transcendent
    Beyond convention.

Childlike
    Able to believe what I feel.

Naïve
    I base this word on how I feel when I see others interacting in ways that I know of but cannot really grasp. I tend to be taken by surprise a lot by other people's actions.
      Maybe this is just a personal trait.

    I guess Childlike, Transcendent, Spiritual, and Divine are qualities that I associate with my femininity along with being intuitive.  And so, I don't know if it's a valid thing to do, but I guess I'm trying to squeeze aspects of my feminine nature into some of the words I like for the FoR.
   I don't associate religion or mysticism with any of the words. I have a theory that much of the language used for spiritual matters exists because the words weren't available for psychological terms until the past hundred or so years. I tend to forget words with more than four letters in them and so I revert to the words of the ancients.
   Maybe we can find alternate modern words or something.

My point of view.

I agree.  That's how I feel about those words.  They aren't religious or metaphysical to me. 

[no_id]

Analysing poll results

To what extend can you relate to the common frame of reference:

Solitary, Invisible, Both, Neither, Misunderstood, Free, [Gender dysphoric], Spiritual, Balanced, Not socially constructed; unbound, Divine, Other, Non-Binary, Transcendent, Confused, Naïve, Childlike, Failing to conform, Unique.

I can relate to it.                    5 (27.8%)
I can mostly relate to it.          8 (44.4%)
I can somewhat relate to it.    2 (11.1%)
I can relate to it little.             2 (11.1%)
I cannot relate to it.               1 (5.6%)
                                                   
Total voters: 18

In retrospect that means:
13 (72.2%): could largely or completely relate to the common FoR.
6 (27.8%): could largely not or completely not relate to the common FoR.

What were the most prominent factors for individuals to vote 'Yes' or 'No'
    One of the first encountered differentiations, and also common was gender dysphoric; body dysmorphic; not every Androgyne experiences this factor. However, this doesn't insinuate a clash of interest, yet does shine light on the most dominant segregation in the Androgyne community: those who do not wish to modify their physical, sexual appearance and those who do.

To further analyse this; within the group who do experience gender dysphoria there are also two different interests; those who wish to masculinise/feminise their physical, sexual appearance and those who wish to nullify their physical, sexual appearance -- Other/Intergender and Neutrois/Nullgender.

    However, when stripping physical concerns and shifting the focus on introspection there seems to be another differenatiation that is not linked to gender dysphoria, and ignores the differentiating groups on that principle.

Childlike, Naive, Spiritual, Transcendent, Divine are poignant terms associated with a more enlightened principle of being -- a spiritual minset in the more ethereal, blissful sense of definition rather than religious. This witness of being is not associated to (carried by) all seperate individuals and promotes the segregation of groups who do and those who do not

    Therefore, when analysing the poll results and varying reasons for voting in can be concluded that motivations are attached seperately to physical and non-physical argumentations. Moreover, this shows that (focus: Emerald's Andorgyne Continuüm) within the Androgyne continuüm physical and non-physical positions are occupied seperately: they are fluctuating, and that in retrospect the most correct Common Frame of Reference for Androgyne is in fact the most simplistic one:

An identification of non/not-one binary... that lays on par with the definition of Gender Variation. Hence the question is; is Androgyne an Umbrella-term or truly a gender identification, and if the latter; what is the 'true' definition of Androgyne if placed under the Gender Variant umbrella?


Brought to you by no_id now they finally have a day off....   

[Emerald]

Hence the question is; is Androgyne an Umbrella-term or truly a gender identification, and if the latter; what is the 'true' definition of Androgyne if placed under the Gender Variant umbrella?

''Androgyne' is not an umbrella term. 'Androgynous' and 'Androgyny' are umbrella terms. These two words refer to outward, observable traits and behaviours that are a blend of what is masculine and feminine, an absence of what is masculine and feminine, or a reversal of what is masculine and feminine.

An 'Androgyne' is a person, an individual with an Androgyne Identity. The word 'Androgyne' is used in the same way a cisgendered biological male is a 'Man' because he has a Male Gender Identity and a biological male who is transsexual is a 'Woman' because nhe has a Female Gender Identity.

The term 'Androgyne Identity' refers to a specific gender identity, an internal psychological state of being.
Androgyne Identity is purely a matter of the mind, unobservable by others... as are all gender identities.
Androgyne Identity stands in sharp contrast to Male Gender Identity, Female Gender Identity, and a Bigender Identity (a binary gender variant).
Androgyne Identity is distinctive due to the absence of self-identification with the gender identities of Men and Women.

Individuals with an Androgyne Identity do not feel as they are Men or Women beyond the physical sex of their body. It is a constant mental state. Like all gender identities, it is not believed to be subject to change. Any Transsexual will bear witness to the statement "Male Gender Identity and Female Gender Identity are lifelong mindsets". In contrast, Bigender Identity is a changeable psychological state that shifts and alternates between Male and Female gender. In further contrast, Androgyne Identity is unchanging, stable, a gender type that is neither Male nor Female gender which is described as feeling as if it encompass both the binary genders... or neither of the binary genders.

Male Gender Identity = a Man.
Female Gender Identity = a Woman
Bigender Identity = a Man and a Woman, alternating.
Androgyne Identity = not a Man, not a Woman, nor alternating between a Man and a Woman.

This forum is named "Androgyne Talk - A place for those who identify as Androgyne."
Androgynes are known as the silent majority of the Transgender world.
This forum was created to give a voice to the most unnoticed, unseen, and often marginalized people in the Transgender Community.
The creation and existence of this forum on a Transgender Support website is important because there is so little information available about people who do not have a Male and/or a Female Gender Identity. Too many Androgynes have made the mistake of assuming if they are not Cisgender their only other option is to be or become, the 'opposite' sex, the 'other' binary gender. Many Androgynes have spent years, even decades, switching from male to female trying to find which of the binary genders they belong to... but neither of the binary genders is the right gender for an Androgyne. Some Androgynes have tragically transitioned to the opposite sex with HRT and SRS only to discover they were on the opposite side of a fence that never applied to them to begin with.

Binary gender system-
'Man' and 'Woman' are the binary genders.
Bigender is a gender variant within the binary genders, alternating between the two binary genders.
Androgyne is not of the binary genders.
Androgynes aren't a part the binary game, it as a flawed counting system.
While the rest of the world counts to two, we count to three...
Androgynes break the gender binary.

Does one not see something remarkable here? 'Androgyne' is a gender variant only if 'Man' and 'Woman' are are considered to be gender variants also!

Androgyne Identity and  body modification-
For an Androgyne Identity, nothing is gained from transitioning from one sex to the other... nothing to be gained from adding the secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex either. If anything, Androgynes seek to downplay or eliminate the sex markers of their natal body to a null-sexed body or a prepubescent body. Most Androgynes do not seek body modification. In contrast, Bigenders tend to prefer the addition of the secondary sexual characteristic of the opposite sex without losing the sex markers of their natal sex, a dual-sexed body.

Androgyne Identity and Clothing-
Crossdressing to express one's 'femininity' or 'masculinity' is not an Androgyne Identity trait. The 'gender value' of clothing is of little or no relevance to an Androgyne. Generally, Androgynes prefer gender-neutral clothing if available. Most Androgynes wear the casual and comfortable attire of their natal sex often along with garments casually worn by the opposite sex. Realizing they are not Cisgender, and before discovering that there is third gender identity classification beyond the binary genders of Man and Woman, an Androgyne may experiment with intentional crossdressing in the quest to discover if they are crossgendered (MtF or FtM). Crossdressers (cisgendered) and  Bigender individuals (dual-gendered) possess a lifelong need or desire to crossdress, perceiving their 'other clothing' as having a very powerful gender value. Transsexuals (crossgendered) also place a high gender value on clothing, strongly preferring garments that are culturally associated with their core gender identity. Intentional crossdressing, in this sense, is not an Androgyne Identity trait. Androgyne tend to wear what they please with little to no regard for which sex or gender would usually wear it.

Bottom line-
If we desire to understand the nature of gender and gender identity, we must be willing and able to understand the difference between a binary  gender identification (man and/or woman) and a gender identification that is outside and beyond the binary genders. Androgyne is a unique gender entirely different and separate from the traditional binary genders or variations within the binary genders.

Repeated for emphasis- Androgyne is not a gender variant within the binary genders. Androgyne is a third gender, a gender classification of equal standing and value as the genders of Man and Woman.

-Emerald 

[no_id]

Emerald.. Where's the "In my opinion" part?... 

[Kendall]

Looking in the major English language Dictionaries for both words.
Here are definitions of Androgyne. Most definitions refer to androgyne as an "androgynous person".

There are no definitions for bigender in the dictionaries yet. Though one would assume that eventually all common used words make it to the dictionary.

Androgyne Dictionary Definitions:

MSN Encarta 1. androgynous person: somebody who seems to have both male and female sexual characteristics
2. biology  Same as  hermaphrodite (sense 1)
[Mid-16th century. Via French and Latin< Greek androgunos< andro- "man" + gunē "woman"]

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861585521


Oxford Dictionary /andrjin/
• noun 1 an androgynous individual. 2 a hermaphrodite

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/androgyne?view=uk

Marriam-Webster Etymology: Middle English androgine, from Latin androgynus
: one that is androgynous
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=androgyne

American Heritage NOUN: An androgynous individual
http://www.bartleby.com/61/26/A0292600.html

Rather the term seems more prevalent used since Androgyne Online's creation, and their addition of the information to the Wikipedia.

Which defines it as such Definition which has its origin as far as I can tell in the Androgyne Essay which was revised earlier this year and switched from including bigender, to suddenly excluding.

Androgyne Online Essay Current Version [Which Excludes Bigender][Which only recently this year removed the prior version's inclusion of bigendered as a synonym or included, was revised.]

Androgyne (pronounced AN-dra-jine) is the term used to describe persons who are androgynous. Androgyny, first and foremost, is a state of mind, not just an attitude or fashion statement. The notion that only androgynous-looking people can be or are androgynous is a misconception. Androgynes can be said to have the gender identity of both a man and a woman -- or neither. Some identify with both traditional genders, while others see their identity as more of a synthesis and consider themselves to be agendered, as in "other" or "none of the above." Some androgynes go as far as to call themselves "gender outlaw" (a term popularized by Kate Bornstein).

Other names for androgyne (Greek for man/woman) are agendered, ambigendered, epicene, gender gifted, gender outlaw, intergendered (a term coined by intersex people), non-binary gender variant, nongendered, the third gender, and the fourth gender. Related but non-synonymous terms would be eunuch, bigendered (which applies mostly to crossdressers), gender bender, genderqueer, gender variant, hijra, neutrois, the third sex (which is usually a misnomer), transgenderist, and two-spirit.

Androgyne Online Essay Original Version [Which includes bigender as a synonym] Which has been posted for the last 6 years, prior to the revision]

Androgyne (pronounced ANDRAjine) is the term used to describe persons who are androgynous. Androgyny, first and foremost, is a state of mind, not just an attitude or fashion statement. The notion that only androgynous-looking people can be or are androgynous is a misconception. Androgynes can be said to have the gender identity of both a man and a woman -- or neither. That is to say, some androgynes consider themselves to be bigendered in that they identify with both traditional genders, while others see their identity as more of a synthesis and consider themselves to be "other" -- hence, agendered.

Other names for androgyne (Greek for man/woman) are hijra, Two Spirit, the third sex, gender gifted, bigendered, intergendered, ambigendered, nongendered, and agendered.

You can read the evolution of the change in the page http://androgyne.0catch.com/old.htm

Is there any other source of dictionary that I am missing? Last year Stephe Feldman's definition included bigender, and this year sie changed it to exclude. After reading Stephe's own story of hir own confusion, opinion of hir own essay, disclaimer of it's absolute validity, and rocky experiences, even up to recent, such source isn't a good concrete source.

[Seshatneferw]

Is there any other source of dictionary that I am missing?

The examples you dug up are, I think, enough to show that general dictionaries are not particularly useful here: their emphasis is on everyday speech, not specialised jargon, and frankly neither the general public nor the average lexicographer has reason to seriously question the traditional two-gender system.

is Androgyne an Umbrella-term or truly a gender identification

Yes.

That is, it is entirely reasonable to divide the gender landscape to two, three, four, five or even more regions. Androgyne is somewhere between male and female; in a three-way split, these are all, so the identities that are not at either of the absolute ends have to be considered as some variants of one of the three. Mostly they fall under androgyne, but in a trinary gender system it's also reasonable to consider some of us as shades of male or female. For instance, depending on just how one understands gender, I could see my own identity labelled as either androgyne or trinary female.

The point here is that the androgyne of a three-gender system is not just a superset of the bigender, ambigender and null-gender of a five-gender system. This is not a strict hierarchy: when adding genders, the borders of the old ones change as well. Still, it's a reasonably close approximation to use the trinary androgyne as an umbrella term for the genders that contrast with male] and female in any non-binary system. We might as well do that, but with the realisation that we want to include people who may not feel very close to the 'core' of androgyny.

what is the 'true' definition of Androgyne if placed under the Gender Variant umbrella?

Trying to express Emerald's definition in the terms I used above, androgyne can be seen as one of the genders in a four-way system, contrasting with male, female and bigender. I, personally, would restrict its use to the three-gender system and use the five-gender system outlined above when appropriate.

  Nfr

[RebeccaFog]

You folks knocked my socks off.  I don't suppose you can get them and bring them back to me, huh?   


   I agree with the idea that we can't rely on traditional dictionary definitions.  The people who wrote that stuff were using the same faulty references and information that has been passed down for years.
   It's up to us to take some of these words and to give them a true meaning.  A meaning that informs the uninformed, but also is true to our own experience.  I have no idea about how we can change the official use of terms, however, except by contacting dictionary people and asking them to look at what we have to offer in terms of definitions and explanations.