Androgyne Frame of Reference: Part II

[Seshatneferw]

You folks knocked my socks off.  I don't suppose you can get them and bring them back to me, huh?   

Oh. Sorry, we got carried away a bit. I can't find your socks, though, so here's a new pair. One ankle-high cotton sock and one fishnet stocking. Is black all right?

I have no idea about how we can change the official use of terms, however, except by contacting dictionary people and asking them to look at what we have to offer in terms of definitions and explanations.

Won't work, really -- for the most part, dictionaries are written to reflect current usage, not influence it. The way to change things is basically to be loud enough. Just how we can do that on a scale larger than these forums is an interesting question.

  Nfr

[Kendall]

Stephe Fieldman's Conflict

I burned out sometime in 2004, frustrated that I was not able to convey my androgyne nature in everyday life without appearing gay instead of androgyne. On page 342 of the 2007 book, The Fenway Guide to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Health, I am the "client" referred to. See below:

  Depression can also arise in persons who do not necessarily qualify for the diagnosis of GID, but do experience a certain amount of gender dysphoria.  Such people may not identify as either male or female, and therefore do not gain outside validation of a gender identity different from the male/female binary.  For example, one client who was born biologically male and identified as androgyne sought to present her gender as androgynous, as this felt most genuine to her (the client is comfortable using both male and female pronouns).  However, she found that although she could convincingly present as either male or female, she was not able to find a way to appear androgynous.  Eventually she came to accept her gender identity as separate from her gender presentation.  However, the client continues to experience depression, low self-esteem, and feelings of rejection and isolation due to the inability of others to recognize her as androgyne.  [. . .]

     The writer of the above incorrectly ascribed my depression, low self-esteem, and feelings of rejection and isolation specifically to being androgyne, while the truth is that is both because of my androgyneity and because of my Asperger's Syndrome, with perhaps more emphasis on the latter.

This is Tehenu's view, one early writer of one large Androgyne group

Tahenu's Conflict

I seem to have evoked quite deep philosophical ponderings with my
series of essays. That is good in itself as it helps us understand
what the world is like. However, philosophy often stays outside the
person pondering it. Meeting one's own self requires something in
addition to that.

What I did find was not a perfect philosophical structure into which
I would be a perfect fit. No - far from it! In fact, I have
formulated no comprehensive philosophy of androgyny. Even though
many of you say being a non-conformant, there is always a danger that
you still define yourself through androgyny. Non-conforming
androgyny, for sure, but androgyny all the same.

Instead of searching for your idea of androgyny and then trying to
model it in your life, how about searching for the real you. That
real self is partly made of androgyny, but it is not all there
is. Instead of thinking how a non-conforming androgyne would handle
a specific situation that I encounter, I try to learn to listen to my
Inner Being.

In order to meet people as individuals, it is important for me to be
an individual as well. Any philosophical construct - be it
cisgendered, transgendered or nongendered - is an impediment to
living as me. When I can break all those shells and live here and
now all the time, have I become myself. That is not something you
can ever become completely, but it is a goal to reach for.

I was able to connect to those women exactly because I stopped
emulating. Emulating a man, a woman, an androgyne, a scholar, a
philosoph, a shaman, a spiritual being, whatever. And stopping the
emulation is one of the hardest things you can do, because then you
are alone. Alone. Really Alone.

However, the good thing is that being alone in that sense is the most
important prerequisite for really connecting to others. You just
need to dare to jump over the dark pit of loneliness.

Tehanu

Tehanu's 2005 Confusion and Disconnect from others.

In December 2005 I also resigned from the moderator and owner roles
of this group. After all, I felt having failed androgyny as well. I
needed to take a fresh look at myself, including androgyny, and in
order to do that, I needed to resign from the role that had so far
defined my essence very strongly.

My key to success was to be myself. Last time I needed to connect so
badly that I was ready to do just anything. Which is what I
did. And failed. Which made me think I am not an
androgyne. However, in retrospect I see it only proved that I am not
any of them. I am me, instead.

[no_id]

I have to say KK, I am somewhat humoured by this last post of yours.

     For a long time I've gone around trying to define Androgyny, Androgyne; attempting to attach a signify to its assumed symbolism. Sometimes succesful, at times the oppposite, but it was a journey on its own that I enjoyed in all possible aspects.

    Those who have read my latest blog entry or viewed my profile recently, may have noticed that I no longer define as Androgyne since my search for those answers (and gaining them occasionally) only prospered detatchment from its concept.

Therefore, KK, your last post... is almost ironic... 

[Emerald]

Emerald.. Where's the "In my opinion" part?... 

no_id-
My intent is to share accumulated knowledge. Knowledge is infinitely more valuable than my personal opinion. (Personal experience does have a measure of merit though.) 

Rebis-
Yes, my ancient Philosopher's Stone', O Double-thing, Pandora's box of gender has been opened and it won't be shut again. There are strange and beautiful things inside. You shall see! We endeavor to do what has not done before, to discover what 'is' and not just what we desire to be... Find the true nature of gender, Androgynes, and gender identity - to pass these words beyond this speck on the www and enhance the dictionary.

Ken/Kendra-
In the past, 'Androgyne' was used as a synonym for 'hermaphrodite', but both terms fell out of favor and were replaced by the word 'Intersex'. However, you will continue to find this older definition in every dictionary.

Concerning your last post:  'Androgyny' can be physical, socio-political, or psychological. Take care to not confuse an hermaphroditic body with an androgynous mind, nor a philosophy of androgyny with an intrinsic gender identity. This isn't about hermaphrodites, social androgyny, or androgynous lifestyles. Our concerns and the subject of this thread lay solely with the gender identity within the mind. Intrinsic gender, not extrinsic.

Perhaps you missed this website while seeking online reference sources for Androgyne Gender Identity, K/K?
http://www.androgyny.org.uk/

"Welcome to Androgyny Scotland. For those who wish to know more about Androgyny I hope this site will be of interest. What is Androgyny? Many people will be familiar with the androgynous fashions and celebrities of the 70's and 80's. Though this is often the route people have taken in the past in discovering their androgyny, this is not what this site's about. It's also not just about those people who look androgynous, although they are certainly included in what I'm talking about here.

This site is about Androgyny as a gender identity, and hence is about Androgynes. Whilst the English language is inaccurate when talking about gender identities other than man or woman, it is possible to clumsily and incorrectly describe an androgyne as someone whose gender identity is a combination of or absence of masculine and feminine, that is, they are an amalgamation of the two. I say this is a clumsy and incorrect explanation for the same reason that describing the colour yellow as a combination of black and white is clumsy and incorrect. Androgyny cannot be truly described by invoking Man and Woman. Androgyny is a distinct gender identity and should never be confused as a mixture or combination of anything else."

Also, Wikipedia has an entry for "Bigender":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender

Bigender (bi+gender) is a tendency to move between masculine and feminine gender-typed behaviour depending on context, expressing a distinctly "en femme" persona and a distinctly "en homme" persona, feminine and masculine respectively. It is a subset of transgender.

While an androgynous person retains the same gender-typed behaviour across situations, the bigendered person consciously or unconsciously changes their gender-role behaviour from primarily masculine to primarily feminine, or vice versa. It is worth noting that this concept emerged from within the transgender community itself, rather than being adopted after it was created by another sub-culture (for example, transsexual was defined first by the mental health community).

Expression
Some express their bigender identity through crossdressing or performing as a drag king/drag queen; others may adopt a strictly masculine, feminine, or androgynous appearance and experience the shift between genders on a purely mental, or only subtly physical, level.

I hope this is helpful! 

-Emerald 

[RebeccaFog]

Going through the posts about Stephe Feldman [The person that wrote Androgyne Online Essay and owner of Androgyne Online and several other sites/boards/etc...], I suppose I should quote the things I referred to. These are hir words.

This is just to show you a little info from the source of most androgyne definitions.

Stephe Feldman is a 48 year old,  Cashier from Boston Massachusetts.

Concerning the Androgyne Essay

My key to success was to be myself. Last time I needed to connect so
badly that I was ready to do just anything. Which is what I
did. And failed. Which made me think I am not an
androgyne. However, in retrospect I see it only proved that I am not
any of them. I am me, instead.

I've come to a similar conclusion.  Must be the air here by the cape. (I mean Batman's cape. I don't want anyone to think I'm a snotty cape codder). 

all my recent energies just to discover that I am myself.  my own brand of androgyne.  Imagine how much searching we each would have to do to truly find just one other person like ourselves?  It's like having your own T in the souper group GLBTtTtTTTttTTTtttTttttttttttTttttttttttT and so on and so on until a T appears that represents you.

[Alison]

My intent is to share accumulated knowledge. Knowledge is infinitely more valuable than my personal opinion. (Personal experience does have a measure of merit though.)

Personal knowledge that is of your own opinion.. that is derived from the opinions of others... None of it is fact.

[Kendall]

Concerning your last post:  'Androgyny' can be physical, socio-political, or psychological.
Perhaps you missed this website while seeking online reference sources for Androgyne Gender Identity, K/K?

The last post was Stephe Feldman's quotes, the website owner of Androgyne Online and writer of that info. I think Stephe posted the Wikipedia, or someone from circle of friends. I dont know who wrote the scottland info on the link you posted, since they dont state their name looking over the site.

The definition reply was in regards to whoever mentioned that the definitions came from a common dictionary, which was maybe you who mentioned this. I was just showing the common english language definitions found in the regular dictionaries.

Take care to not confuse an hermaphroditic body with an androgynous mind, nor a philosophy of androgyny with an intrinsic gender identity.

I dont recall anyone saying anything about hermaphroditic bodies are androgynous minds. There are male bodied, female bodied, and a few transitioning bodied members at this site. Dont know of any hermaphoroditic bodied androgynes. My body that I have now, feels comfortable to me, though I wish I had longer legs, lol.

This isn't about hermaphrodites, social androgyny, or androgynous lifestyles. Our concerns and the subject of this thread lay solely with the gender identity within the mind. Intrinsic gender, not extrinsic.

[whistles...]

Androgynes are known as the silent majority of the Transgender world.

I laugh every time I read that quote, then see androgynes that immediately trying to exclude as many people as they can from the group. Not just on this site, but on various message boards. Its sorta like the your not ->-bleeped-<- enough version. How many transgendered person's are androgyne? Silent majority is how many? Shouldn't it read "silent minority"?

And apparently must limit their conversations also.

[Shana A]

And failed. Which made me think I am not an
androgyne. However, in retrospect I see it only proved that I am not
any of them. I am me, instead.

Wow, that'll teach me to go away for a weekend without internet access. 

Even though I've been hanging around the androgyne part of this site for a year or so, and feel comfortable here, I also sometimes don't feel like I really "fit" as an androgyne either. It's yet another label. I'm really just me.

Zythyra