Bad effects of estrogen on (mostly) male brains?

[kellb]

I'm an non-binary person considering getting small amounts of T blockers and low dose E.  I've been told that E often provokes a bad response in people with "masculine brains", which I'm guessing would probably include me: I identify about 30% female, 30% male and 40% not much.

Can anyone tell me what the bad effects of E on males might be?  Gynecomastia is an obvious downside for males, but that doesn't worry me - I'm more curious about psychological and non-obvious physical effects.

[Deborah]

I'll bet that loss of sexual libido tops the list based on how men think.

For me that loss has been a huge relief.


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[kellb]

Hah.  That hadn't even occurred to me as a 'downside'.  I can't say that concerns me at all - but then again, my GP was confused when I told her I wasn't particularly attached to my testicles.

[amber roskamp]

Small amounts of hormones won't do much to harm your psych. I don't think estrogen would have a negative effect on the male brain, but I think the physical changes that come along with estrogen would cause a man to be dysphoric. If you don't actually want any of the effects of estrogen then it might cause you some psychological distress.

For me a trans feminine person. I have only noticed emotional changes. it's not like I suddenly am more emotional it's more that my body/brain responds better to those emotions. Like I cry easier, I scream when I get scared/spooked,  and I laugh harder at jokes. They have all been things that I view as a positive.

Also I have a lower sex drive, and how I experience my sex drive has changed as well. Like I was only interested in girls but I was curious but not necessarily attracted to men before my transition. Now I am attracted to both men and women equally In fact I have a crush on a guy right now.

The way my sex drive used to work was I wanted to touch other people. Now it has shift to I want to be touched by other people.

[kellb]

Interesting!  Thank you!   I would see all the things you list as positive.  I am also 50-50 bisexual, so no problem there (committed male life-partner).

Although I present as very masculine, I don't see myself as a "man" (I really hate being referred to as male).  I do suffer from dysphoria already: wrong bottom bits - born male, should be female down there.  However, I have no intention of transitioning socially (I'm not a woman, either!).  I'm hoping E might take the edge of my masculinity and maybe make me a bit more ambiguous, as well as set me up for SRS down the track.

[Dena]

I'm an non-binary person considering getting small amounts of T blockers and low dose E.  I've been told that E often provokes a bad response in people with "masculine brains", which I'm guessing would probably include me: I identify about 30% female, 30% male and 40% not much.

I have a little unproven theory about that. I think that other than the CIS who are up here, all of our brain are altered in the way we process our birth hormones. This doesn't make us all transsexuals but it opens the door to the fact that non binary may benefit from HRT as much as transsexuals do.

I suspect in you case, the percentages could be off because you were raised as a male so society may have put a finger on the scale pushing you a bit more to the male side. The other possibility is that your brain may welcome both gender hormones because it is middle of the road and not hard female or male. Non binary didn't exist when I was in treatment and I suspect our understanding of the state may still be a bit primitive.

Should you desire HRT, I think you will learn pretty fast if you are comfortable with them, In any case good luck on your quest.

[kellb]

Thanks, Dana!

I confess I've often felt a bit like a tomboy in a boy's body... but I don't feel like a woman.  Who knows?  It's an interesting voyage of discovery, for sure.  I rather wonder if doing well on HRT might help convince people that it's not just all in my head.  I live in fear of being told to "make do" with my entirely male body, simply because I have no intention of transitioning socially. :/

[sparrow]

Hey Kellb... I've been on estrogen for a week and a day now.  I largely have the same fear of not being accepted... especially now that I'm wearing an estrogen patch, it feels like a 'point of no return'.  My concept of "femininity" is a strange one, thanks to my upbringing.  I've always admired "macho" women, and I detest the idea that transitioning, even to 100% female, would require one iota of change in my behavior.

I've had periods of extreme dysphoria because of the maleness of my body.  My therapist, my wife, and my GP are all on board.

[Swayallday]

I'm an non-binary person considering getting small amounts of T blockers and low dose E.  I've been told that E often provokes a bad response in people with "masculine brains", which I'm guessing would probably include me: I identify about 30% female, 30% male and 40% not much.

Can anyone tell me what the bad effects of E on males might be?  Gynecomastia is an obvious downside for males, but that doesn't worry me - I'm more curious about psychological and non-obvious physical effects.

Loss of muscle strength maybe?
Nothing that can't be fixed with working out I suppose

[michelle]

Just a question?  Why would anyone with a male brain take estrogen?   And how do you know if you had a male brain?    I have never had much of a male ego.   So does that mean I have a female brain.   If I have a female brain, I wish I had the body to go with it.    I don't have the male libido either.  Hormones are bound to change our moods though I have never been on hormones except my naturally produced hormones.   You should probably check with a doctor and a counselor to get some guidance on this manner.   I am just your old transsexual grandma sticking her nose into something she doesn't understand.   Be careful.

[mfox]

Here's my experience when testosterone is replaced with estrogen.

Like others mentioned, you can expect the male-type libido to disappear.  The sensation of being "horny" sometimes / all the time, and wanting to do something about it, goes away for a lot of people.

You can also expect to lose a lot of confidence and assertiveness.  Most of the dare-devil, thrill-seekers in the world are men.  I feel testosterone gives you a feeling of invincibility, even if it's subtle.  You notice it when it's gone.   It's hard not to confuse that feeling with the similar loss of male privilege though, in my mind.

You become filled with a lot more empathy and emotion, rather than logic.  You can't keep emotion at a distance anymore, so you will cry if you want to or not.  You might see more value in others opinions, but also their criticisms.  You're more emotionally vulnerable to suggestions.

[Obfuskatie]

I'm pretty sure there are relatively large flaws in the evidence gathering for the "male" brained individuals introduced to estrogen. But all the drawbacks are essentially good news for trans people. Also, it's ok if you reevaluate down the road of transition and decide you want to do more or less, whatever makes you happy.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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[iKate]

Just a question?  Why would anyone with a male brain take estrogen? 

A low dose of E is sometimes used for treating prostate cancer to counter the effects of T. You know some of the antiandrogens that MTFs use like Flutamide and Bicalutamide? They were developed for treating prostate cancer by lowering testosterone. I have heard anecdotally that guys who take it will feel quite miserable.

[Dee Marshall]

A low dose of E is sometimes used for treating prostate cancer to counter the effects of T. You know some of the antiandrogens that MTFs use like Flutamide and Bicalutamide? They were developed for treating prostate cancer by lowering testosterone. I have heard anecdotally that guys who take it will feel quite miserable.

I actually just looked it up trying to get an answer for this thread. The actual mental symptoms when a man is given estrogen for prostate cancer are memory problems, depression and anxiety. Some of the same symptoms that hormone therapy for transgender people alleviates.

[Jill F]

My first dose of estrogen was amazing.   I found myself smiling for no reason whatsoever, and later discovered that this feeling was what most people call "happiness".

[Rejennyrated]

Most of these ideas about the deleterious effects of estrogen on the male brain date from the days when Homosexuality was illegal and was often treated by giving massive doses of female hormones in an attempt to rid the patient of their libido - now obviously to someone male and attracted to men this induced horrifying physical changes and massive dysphoria.

Now those who are trans will testify that dysphoria robs one of the ability to think properly and hence a homosexual man treated with female hormones would not only be robbed of their libido but also would become increasingly dysfunctional as the dysphoria bit home...

That is very probably all there is to it. Nothing magical about male or female brains per-se - just the simple fact of inducing physical changes that are unwelcome - in short precisely what trans people go through after their unwanted cross sex puberty.

[suzifrommd]

The effect is that the body will look less and less like a male body as time goes on. A cisgender male who takes female hormones will start getting body dysphoria, the same way trans people do when our bodies don't match the way we need to see them.

[amber roskamp]

Here's my experience when testosterone is replaced with estrogen.

Like others mentioned, you can expect the male-type libido to disappear.  The sensation of being "horny" sometimes / all the time, and wanting to do something about it, goes away for a lot of people.

You can also expect to lose a lot of confidence and assertiveness.  Most of the dare-devil, thrill-seekers in the world are men.  I feel testosterone gives you a feeling of invincibility, even if it's subtle.  You notice it when it's gone.   It's hard not to confuse that feeling with the similar loss of male privilege though, in my mind.

You become filled with a lot more empathy and emotion, rather than logic.  You can't keep emotion at a distance anymore, so you will cry if you want to or not.  You might see more value in others opinions, but also their criticisms.  You're more emotionally vulnerable to suggestions.

While many do become less assertive  I think in transfolk that it actually helps confidence. Dysphoria used to cause a lot of self confidence issues. Alleviating the dysphoria has helped me become a much more confident person.

[AnonyMs]

In the past I've tried to find out if there's any evidence for cis-males being badly effected estrogen, but without any success.

You can find papers like this one, but I don't know of any studies into how men feel about it.

Estrogen action and prostate cancer
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3134227/

I even asked my endo if anyone had disliked how estrogen made them feel, and after thinking about it a moment he said he didn't think anyone had disliked it (and that's a lot of people). It could be everyone likes it, or that by the time he sees them all the non-trans people have been filtered out.

I do know that I'm terrified of testosterone. That stuff has terrible negative effects on my mind. Is it the same as a cis-male would experience on estrogen? I've no idea.

I sometimes wonder if this idea that estrogen is a test for being trans is just wishful thinking, but I've moved on and gave up worrying about it a long time ago.

[captains]

The effect is that the body will look less and less like a male body as time goes on. A cisgender male who takes female hormones will start getting body dysphoria, the same way trans people do when our bodies don't match the way we need to see them.

Yes, this, plus the libido decrease. Neurophysiologically, I'm not sure we can make any conclusive statements. There is a lot of controversy in the scientific community about the effects of estrogen on the brain.

The sexual differentiation of the brain -- the small physical differences between male and female brains -- are gestational and driven by exposure to testosterone early in utero. Those differences can't be mapped to any sort of specific personality or emotional differences between men and women, and the idea that men are [xyz] because of their brain structure while women are more [abc] is currently held as outdated and kind of sexist. Very broadly speaking, trans people tend to have a neurological cartography that's more similar to their preferred gender than their birth sex, so it's possible that the only difference between the male and female brain is the gender identity they hold. Maybe the NB brain looks between the two, idk. Again, I'm only speaking in averages and trends, so no, there's no brain scan one can do to dx being trans. 

Estrogen impacts mood in complicated ways (we think it improves it, generally?) and also it seems to correlate with better focus on certain tasks. Not exactly a strong negative when applied to the male brain. It's just that, yknow, lookin' girly ain't real nice for a dude. Take it from me.