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Growing a penis at 12: the 'Guevedoce' boys of the Dominican Republic

Started by iKate, September 20, 2015, 07:53:47 PM

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iKate

Growing a penis at 12: the 'Guevedoce' boys of the Dominican Republic
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11874983/Dr-Michael-Mosely-growing-a-penis-at-12.html
By Dr Michael Mosely 12:01AM BST 20 Sep 2015

I hated going through puberty; voice cracking, swinging moods, older brother laughing at me. But compared to Johnny, who lives in a small town in the Dominican Republic, I had it easy.We came across Johnny when we were filming for a new BBC2 series, "Countdown to Life", which looks at the consequences of normal, and abnormal, developments in the womb.

Johnny is known as a "Guevedoce", which literally means, "penis at twelve". And the reason he's called that is because, like 1 in 90 of the boys in the area, he first started to grow a penis when he was going through puberty.

Guevedoces are also sometimes called "machihembras" meaning "first a woman, then a man". When they're born they look like girls with no testes and what appears to be a vagina. It is only when they near puberty that the penis grows and testicles descend.

Johnny, who is now in his 20s, was once known as Felicita. He was brought up as a girl and remembers going to school in a little red dress.

When he was young he would happily play with other little girls, but after the age of seven he started to change.

[...]
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Ms Grace

I am utterly gobsmacked by this. I suspect it will confound the guys on the forum even more so. I'd be curious with how the people who go through this cope?
Grace
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Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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stephaniec

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captains

I thought guevedoce came from "heuvedoce" and meant "eggs at 12"? But not the point.

I remember being so jealous of the dudes with this intersex condition when I first heard about it. My dream! Unfort for me, all these guys w 5ARD are genetically XY.

@Ms Grace, since this tends to run really strongly in families, I think there's much cultural support around it, which probably changes things? I remember reading about how something like 12/13 families in one village were affected by this. But I dunno, I agree, it'd probably be one helluva thing to deal with.


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- cameron
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kira21 ♡♡♡

I think it's really interesting how the change in hormones lead to a change in gendered behaviour.  I also find the age that it happened, at 7 interesting.  It's interesting to note that natural changes in hormone levels  between birth puberty and possibly beyond, can lead to evolution of our identity.   

Ms Grace

Presumably they are genetically "primed" for this. Just as some animals and fish can change physical sex depending on the circumstances, so too it would seem can humans providing they have a specific gene sequence in their DNA (or a "genetic defect" as it's referred to in the article).
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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iKate

I've always thought that, Grace. Having been under treatment in two fertility clinics and talking with doctors about their work, it really does show you that it's not the chromosomes but the hormones. Now if only society could come to that understanding.
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Lyric

That's a fascinating story, for sure. It says the drug finasteride was developed as a result of studying these people. I have to wonder if one day SRS could be undergone entirely by drug therapy (for either gender) and, perhaps, even reversible. I don't think the idea is entirely impossible.
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life." - Steve Jobs
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iKate

Quote from: Lyric on September 21, 2015, 09:29:30 AM
That's a fascinating story, for sure. It says the drug finasteride was developed as a result of studying these people. I have to wonder if one day SRS could be undergone entirely by drug therapy (for either gender) and, perhaps, even reversible. I don't think the idea is entirely impossible.

It may be that we could grow our own ovaries and uterus via stem cell therapy. I am envisioning a future where we'd have small ones implanted them hormones would take over and do the rest. For FTMs, a true, functioning phallus could be possible too.
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lisarenee

Quote from: captains on September 21, 2015, 01:36:39 AM
I thought guevedoce came from "heuvedoce" and meant "eggs at 12"?

Guevos is how they pronounce Huevos in some areas. Apparently, some folks must actually write it that way also. While it literally means eggs, the word is also sometimes used to refer to a man's testicles.
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TheMissingM

It's interesting but on the same line of thought concerning, maybe it's my pessimistic mindset but if more people learn how hormones influence behavior, doesn't that give more leeway on conversion therapy?

I really hope it's just me being way too pessimistic but it is a concerning thought.
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HughE

These people have a mutation that renders them deficient in the enzyme 5-alpha reductase. Genetically male people with the mutation are born with the physical appearance of baby girls, but with masculinized brains. Although their prenatal testosterone production wasn't enough to masculinize their bodies before birth, the surge of it that accompanies puberty is normally enough to cause belated male genital development, and so you have the spectacle of people appearing to change sex from girls into boys when they reach puberty (although actually they were male all along).

Alpha reductase deficiency (or 5-ARD) is another one of these rare medical conditions that shows that it's hormones, and not whether you have a Y chromosome or not, that determines which sex you develop as. The fact that most people with the condition are comfortable with a male gender identity, despite being raised as girls and having the physical appearance of a girl throughout their childhood, also shows that gender identity is something that you're born with, and that upbringing (and genitals) has little if any influence on it.

There's another article about the same story here:
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/technology/sci-tech/the-village-where-girls-become-boys-at-puberty-20150920-gjqmt0.html

and here's a quote from that article, showing how people with 5-ARD generally have a male gender identity:
QuoteI remember I used to wear a little red dress," he said. "I was born at home instead of in a hospital. They didn't know what sex I was. I went to school and I used to wear my skirt. I never liked to dress as a girl. When they bought me girls toys I never bothered playing with them. All I wanted to do was play with the boys.

Although we tend to think of testosterone as being the primary male hormone, DHT is equally important, as 5-ARD shows. Alpha reductase is the enzyme that converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (or DHT), and people with 5-ARD are unable to produce DHT. In all other respects, they're the same as ordinary genetic males, including having normal male testosterone levels.

Androgen receptors in the various different tissues making up the human body, have differing sensitivities to testosterone vs DHT. Those in bone, muscle and (it appears) brain tissue respond well to either testosterone or DHT, whereas those in the genitals, hair follicles and most other tissues that give rise to male secondary sexual characteristics, respond several times more strongly to DHT than they do to testosterone. Testosterone on its own isn't enough to drive male genital development in an unborn baby, and without DHT, genital development initially occurs as female. However, brain tissue is more sensitive to testosterone, and so it does develop as male in people with 5-ARD.

During puberty, testosterone is produced at very high levels for several years, and that is sufficient to finally cause masculinization of the genitals and development of other male secondary sexual characteristics (although as the article I've linked mentions, there are often still subtle differences from ordinary men that persist into adulthood).
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iKate

I do have one question though.

If their outward appearance is female, what about their genitals pre puberty? Is there a vulva and vaginal cavity? I guess a lot of these kids parents don't send them to doctors?

And if there is a vaginal cavity and they manage to grow a penis at puberty, what happens to the cavity?
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HughE

Quote from: iKate on October 01, 2015, 08:37:42 AM
I do have one question though.

If their outward appearance is female, what about their genitals pre puberty? Is there a vulva and vaginal cavity? I guess a lot of these kids parents don't send them to doctors?

And if there is a vaginal cavity and they manage to grow a penis at puberty, what happens to the cavity?
I haven't been able to find a straight answer to that question either. Presumably you'd end up with something similar to high grade PAIS, i.e. female appearing external genitals with a shallow vagina ending as a blind pouch. The urethra presumably wouldn't be in the clitoris, it'd exit in the vagina instead. During puberty, the testosterone surge would cause the clitoris to enlarge, producing something more like a penis. The testicles would drop into the labia majora (as sometimes happens with AIS), which I'm guessing would become more scrotum-like. I don't know what would happen to the vaginal pouch though, whether it closes up or not. I can't see how the urethra could become incorporated into the penis either, so presumably these people still have to sit down to pee even when they're adults.

This is all just speculation though, it'd be interesting to know what actually happens.
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