Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

Is trans-ness (if there is such a word) something that has a genetic component.

Started by rachel89, October 08, 2015, 03:54:49 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rachel89

Is "trans-ness" partly genetic? I know a trans-person and their child (young adult) is also trans. I am being as nonspecific as possible for privacy reasons.


  •  

Dena

It is cause by exposure to the opposite sex hormone before birth and you don't normally see it run in families BUT there are several cases I have seen in the last few months where parent and child were both affected. The odds of that would be something like one in 360,000 if there were no genetic component. That would mean in United States there would only be two and with several on this board, it indicates another factor may be in play. In case you should wonder, there are about 20,000 board members and something like 700 are active over the period of a month.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
If you are helped by this site, consider leaving a tip in the jar at the bottom of the page or become a subscriber
  •  


Rejennyrated

Decades ago the answer would have been no! Back then there were studies done which were erroneously thought to have disproved this, however as our knowledge of the complexity of genetics has advanced we now know those studies were fatally flawed! In fact they did not prove anything other than how ignorant of genetics we were at that time.

In the 1980s the hormone exposure explanation that Dena mentions acquired some currency and indeed there is some evidence that this may be a part of the story.

More recently (since about 2001) there have been studies published which are beginning to suggest that in some cases at least, yes there are genetic causes, however it will be some time before this evidence is strong enough to convince the many skeptics, including I'm very sorry to say, some within the trans community, who for various reasons seem to prefer the outdated, and I believe now widely disproven, idea that its all psychological.

So in 2015 the best available guess is "yes there probably is a genetic cause, in some cases," but we are still working on it.
  •  

Laura_7

There was another thread on DES people which was a substance given to mothers before birth...
so its possible this affects also another generation...
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,84224.msg1621923.html#msg1621923
  •  

stephaniec

I'll boldly proclaim yes most definitely   genetics involved. As myself as the lab rat there is only two possible causes  either genes or hormones or a combination. I was 4 when this surfaced so the only explanation is prior to birth. Any way its some what common sense males and females or only differentiated by the Y chromosome and that's out of 46 pairs of chromosomes both share, give me a break.
  •  

suzifrommd

Quote from: rachel89 on October 08, 2015, 03:54:49 PM
Is "trans-ness" partly genetic? I know a trans-person and their child (young adult) is also trans. I am being as nonspecific as possible for privacy reasons.

There current theory has to do with hormone levels during pregnancy. Are there certain gene combinations that make that more likely? I don't think anyone has studied that.

I've often wondered whether there's some mechanism humans have evolved that allows many of us to ignore our gender into middle age (after we've been able to reproduce and pass this mechanism to our children) before we have to give in to it.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
  •  

jeni

There is almost certainly a genetic component.

The best evidence I know of was a study that compared identical twins to fraternal twins where at least one in each pair was trans. It found that for about 20% of identical twins, both were trans. For fraternal twins, it was less than 2.6% (only one fraternal pair were both trans). So sharing identical genetics leads to at least a 10-fold increase of both twins being transgender.

The causes are obviously complex. Prenatal hormones are probably important, but not enough on their own (given the rarity of fraternal trans twins, who share as nearly identical hormonal histories as possible). It is very unlikely there's any single cause. The diversity of experiences and expressions points pretty clearly to that.

Edit: if you want the study, google for 'transgender twins study,' it should be in the top hits. It is titled, 'Transsexuality Among Twins: Identity Concordance, Transition, Rearing, and Orientation' by Milton Diamond.
-=< Jennifer >=-

  •  

Stevie

  •  

Paige

Quote from: jeni on October 08, 2015, 10:27:03 PM
There is almost certainly a genetic component.

The best evidence I know of was a study that compared identical twins to fraternal twins where at least one in each pair was trans. It found that for about 20% of identical twins, both were trans. For fraternal twins, it was less than 2.6% (only one fraternal pair were both trans). So sharing identical genetics leads to at least a 10-fold increase of both twins being transgender.

The causes are obviously complex. Prenatal hormones are probably important, but not enough on their own (given the rarity of fraternal trans twins, who share as nearly identical hormonal histories as possible). It is very unlikely there's any single cause. The diversity of experiences and expressions points pretty clearly to that.

Edit: if you want the study, google for 'transgender twins study,' it should be in the top hits. It is titled, 'Transsexuality Among Twins: Identity Concordance, Transition, Rearing, and Orientation' by Milton Diamond.

Hi Jeni,

That's very interesting, I didn't know about the twins study.  Really puts a different spin on things.   I hope they do more studies with twins.

Thanks for posting,
Paige :)
  •  

Laura_7

Quote from: suzifrommd on October 08, 2015, 07:15:17 PM
There current theory has to do with hormone levels during pregnancy. Are there certain gene combinations that make that more likely? I don't think anyone has studied that.

I've often wondered whether there's some mechanism humans have evolved that allows many of us to ignore our gender into middle age (after we've been able to reproduce and pass this mechanism to our children) before we have to give in to it.

Well part of it might have to do with hormone levels.
After a certain time hormone levels recede, for example high testo levels, which might help coming to a more balanced personality where other parts come more to the foreground.
  •  

Deborah

I thought once that maybe the reason many reach a breaking point in their early to mid 40s might have something to do with diminishing hormone levels.   But at least for me that wasn't the case.  Mine were still near the extreme top limit while the distress just continued to grow..

Plus I remember reading that at one time MTF were treated with T injections in an effort to "cure" them and it didn't work at all.

I'm more inclined to believe that hormone levels after birth are wholly unrelated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
  •  

Laura_7

Quote from: Deborah on October 09, 2015, 06:35:29 AM
I thought once that maybe the reason many reach a breaking point in their early to mid 40s might have something to do with diminishing hormone levels.   But at least for me that wasn't the case.  Mine were still near the extreme top limit while the distress just continued to grow..

Plus I remember reading that at one time MTF were treated with T injections in an effort to "cure" them and it didn't work at all.

I'm more inclined to believe that hormone levels after birth are wholly unrelated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well high hormone levels might lead to a more pronounced feeling to mate...
and quite a few people try to overdo gender roles until they find out its not them...
so after that levels off its possible some people come around...

its also possible high hormone levels after some time lead to a feeling of unease...
I'd say thats the case with hormones not aligned to their gender given to people...
  •  

iKate

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if there is, but I suspect it is more for the mom than the kid.

There seems to be almost a clear link between hormonal events in utero and the fetus developing as gender variant. My theory is that this has to do with genetics in the mom, rather than the child.

Either way as I've said, it doesn't matter to me. I was likely exposed to DES anyway, so I think that is the most plausible explanation for me. Nobody else in my family is like this.
  •  

HughE

Quote from: rachel89 on October 08, 2015, 03:54:49 PM
Is "trans-ness" partly genetic? I know a trans-person and their child (young adult) is also trans. I am being as nonspecific as possible for privacy reasons.
The answer is, it can be. Certain genetic conditions can cause your prenatal hormone production to go wrong, which can affect both your physical sexual development and also prevent masculinization of the brain from taking place (or, in the case of FTMs, cause it to happen inappropriately). Some examples of genetic conditions that can interfere with normal sexual development are: having an XXY karyotype (which can produce male-assigned people with an incompletely masculinized brain); and congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), in which genetically female people can end up with a masculinized brain). Because they all tend to act throughout the pregnancy, in these and other genetic intersex conditions, usually there'll be signs of a physical intersex condition along with the discordant gender identity. I don't know whether it's definitely the case, but the impression I've gained is that with both XXY and CAH, you're more likely to end up with a nonbinary identity rather than a fully transgender one. XXY is a known cause of being trans though, for instance Caroline Cossey is a famous transgender icon who is XXXY (being XXXY has similar effects to XXY, except it causes even greater feminization).

Another thing that can cause the process of sexual development to go wrong is exposure to external hormones. Some examples of this are xenoestrogens in the environment (which can cause male fish and amphibians to end up intersexed or even completely female); and progestin-induced virilization, in which certain artificial hormones used as medicines in the 1960s and 70s turned out to have androgenic effects on female fetuses, and caused baby girls to be born with genitals that had undergone varying degrees of male development.

In general, hormones and chemicals with estrogenic properties cause female development in biologically male fetuses, while those with androgenic properties cause male development in biological females.

A couple of people have already mentioned DES, which is a powerful artificial estrogen that, between 1940 and about 1980, was widely used as a treatment for preventing miscarriages. The official line has always been that the male assigned children who were exposed to DES in the womb suffered virtually no ill effects as a result of their exposure, however, from what I've seen, that's a total lie, and it's caused very high rates of intersex-related abnormalities (with is of course, exactly what you'd expect to happen, considering that estrogens are known to cause female development in biological males across most of the animal kingdom). It's just that so many people were exposed to it, and the public at large regards intersex conditions with such horror, that nobody wants to admit to it and the whole thing has been swept under the carpet.

Due to the way DES was typically prescribed, by far the heaviest exposure tended to happen during the later stages of the pregnancy, after genital development has finished and when the main thing still ongoing is brain development. The result, at least from what I've seen, is that it's generally produced people with a relatively normal male appearance, but whose brains have predominantly developed as female instead of male. Considering how many people were exposed to DES and how few know about it, I think it could well be the main thing causing MTF transsexuality in the over 40s age group. Laura Amato of Laura's Playground is a DES babe, as is Dr Dana Beyer (who blogs on transgender issues for the Huffington Post, and was one of the researchers involved in the one study of DES and gender that's ever been conducted). There's quite a few people with known or suspected DES exposure here at Susan's too.

A number of studies show that DES exposure has transgenerational effects, i.e. not only the children who were exposed to it in the womb have problems, but their own children have unusually high rates of similar abnormalities  too. There's various theories as to why this happens, but I don't think any clear answer has been identified as yet. It might well result in families where you have both children and grandchildren who are transgender though.
  •