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Accepted that I am trans, but decided not to do anything about it...

Started by Amy85, October 13, 2015, 04:22:45 AM

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Sandra M. Lopes

I think this is the kind of topic worth resurrecting once in a while, because I believe the situation is common to so many of us.

I share the pain: to be honest, I'm quite unsure if I'm 'female inside' or not. All I know is that I'm most definitely not a male; never was, and very likely never will be. Because I tried so hard to act and behave as a male, and utterly failed as a result of 'overtrying' (is there such a word?), I now suffer from gender dysphoria, depression, and anxiety (the latter, fortunately, is very easy to keep in check with medication; depression, so-so).

I'm also married, for almost two decades. For some bizarre reason which I cannot understand, all my close friends and familiars are ultra-conservative — except, fortunately, for my wife. She is twice as intelligent as I am, with an IQ at the Utter Genius level, which in turn makes her a voracious reader — and that helped when I 'came out' back in 2004, telling her that I'm 'merely a crossdresser'. That was mostly a lie to myself; I did truly want to believe that's all that I was. In fact, I fervently wish, every day, to be 'just a crossdresser'. I've got a lot of crossdresser friends; those who are transgender, with perhaps one exception (she's genderfluid and oscillates between maleness and femaleness), suffer from gender dysphoria; those who are 'merely crossdressers' are mentally healthy, very happy people, enjoying themselves to the fullest, absolutely sure about their male gender but loving their occasional female presentation. And it's not as if they just occasionally crossdress — many spend more hours dressed as women (at home) than as men (at work).

Almost all of my crossdresser friends also share a common characteristic: they are divorced. Many (most?) struggle with the issue of their children; many are too young to understand, others are teenagers struggling with their own hormone-induced gender and sexuality questions, others still are young adults who would be utterly shocked for having a divorced 'dad' who walks around in women's clothes. In most cases, the divorce was not because of their crossdressing. Most are also occasionally dating women who understand and accept them (most are also divorced themselves), although a very few are more into men, or at least bi-curious and wondering if they could establish a life as wife to a wealthy man. In fact, one of my friends did exactly that — she came out as 'homosexual male' years many ago, found out that sex with other homosexual males was not fulfilling, and finally figured out that what she really wanted was to get a heterosexual male as a partner. This, of course, would only be possible if she became a woman instead — which she did, rather quickly in fact (when I first met her, not quite two years ago, she was not even on hormones; today, she's fully recovered from her gender confirmation surgery and is 'full woman', in her own words).

So... among my circle of friends and acquaintances who self-label themselves as 'trans-something', I see those who are more similar to me being the saddest group. We all go to therapy and have to fight depression along gender dysphoria. In my country there are no jobs for transexuals (or any kind of transgender people) outside sex workers, even though there is a very high level of public tolerance and relatively low levels of open transphobia. Still, no MtF transexual — ever — who transitioned in my country managed to keep their jobs (FtM transexuals usually have no problems finding jobs, especially as teachers — they almost always pass anyway, and they're used to changing schools all the time). A few, very few, managed to get a job outside sex work; one works as a model, but she had a huge push from her daddy, a very influential person in certain circles. This currently means hundreds of jobless transexuals, some of them still depressed, or at least quite frustrated and desperate for getting a way to pay for their bills; many had no choice but to go back to their parents' home. I have asked a few doctors around — currently there are 'thousands' of transgender people in therapy, many of which in several stages of transition, but the vast majority is just trying to cope with the hopelessness of it all. And these are just those who do, indeed, seek medical help from medical specialists in clinical sexology (those are the ones in my country who are allowed to sign the papers for HRT and surgery); there are merely estimates, based on informal chats between colleagues at hospitals and clinics, which calculate that there are possibly tens of thousands of transgender people out there, suffering in silence, and not daring to seek professional help— but who confessed to their family doctors the kind of urges they had to become women, and the effort they made to suppress those urges. Now, these numbers might not impress you; but I live in a small country and we're talking about 1% of the male population suffering from some degree of gender dysphoria — and these are just the ones who talked to a doctor. How many are still silently suffering, not daring to talk to a doctor?

Now let's look at some parochial statistics. Those 'happy crossdressers' (I don't wish to sound as if I envy them; in fact, I'm very glad that they have no problems!) outnumber us 'sad gender dysphorics' by at least 5:1, and very possibly more. Of course I'm just counting those in my group; and of course a few might be 'faking' that they are 'merely crossdressers' exactly for the same reasons that most of us do: to try to persuade themselves and everybody around them that they can handle gender dysphoria and suffer in silence. I don't know. Few openly admit it, that's for true.

What's my point? That the number of people desperately clinging to any other 'label' except 'transexual' (in the sense of suffering from gender dysphoria that can only be dealt with through transition) is actually much higher than what we may imagine. The media tend to show the many success stories — and a few tragedies. Activist sites, as well as many others, tend to portray the image that going through transition is hard and tough, but always worth is — so long as what you really want is to leave your 'old' life behind and start from scratch a 'new' life.

Unfortunately, that's not such an easy choice for everybody! My own therapist actually sided with my wife when I told them that I wanted to 'come out' to more people, including some familiars and close friends: they both told me to refrain from doing so. Why? Because it's unclear if I will ever have the courage to break up all ties with family, friends, job, a city, a way to support myself financially... and jump blindingly ahead and start living my life as woman without a real plan on how that can really be achieved (emigration is an option for a few transgender friends believing that they might get luckier in getting a job in the UK or the Netherlands) — so I should just keep a low profile. Sure, dress as much as possible, at home or in public with other crossdresser friends, but stick to that, and only that.

Mind you, there is no doubt in the minds of my therapist and psychiatrist (and even on my family doctor) that I do suffer from gender dysphoria. It's questionable if it's a very severe case, though — I would say it's moderate-to-mild, since I do not entertain suicidal thoughts, nor do I have the courage to break all ties with everything, which is what people with severe gender dysphoria usually want to do. Nevertheless, I have seen some reports. Doctors want to help me out of depression (which currently prevents me from working), but the therapy they proposed does not meet with my wife's approval — they suggest that, since most of my work (if not all of it) can be done remotely, I ought to dress like I wish every day, stay at home for 8 hours and do my work, and eventually go out with some friends as a 'reward'. In fact, I have tried this 'therapy' for a couple of days and it certainly worked wonderfully well. But then reality stepped in: my wife said that there was no way I she would be going to the supermarket with me ridiculously dressed as a woman (or, what she says, a 'hyper-feminine stereotype of a woman that really does not exist except in my mind'), and of course we need to shop for food. And she can add a few millions of other examples when it would be completely unthinkable for me to go out (especially with her), face everybody, and so forth. For my wife, this is simply unthinkable, and, in a word, 'stupid'. She does not believe that I have 'gender dysphoria'. Instead, she follows a line of reasoning not unlike that of Felix Conrad <commercial links are not allowed> — that going out with crossdressing friends provokes an adrenaline rush, a sensation of well-being, which is important for someone who is depressed (that's why we shouldn't stay at home, but seek the company of others), and this leads us to imagine that we would be better off if we 'acted' as if we were 'female bimbos' and do it all the time. My wife has a sharp tongue; she is not politically correct when telling me how I should behave :)

But of course she forces me to think about my real choices, and separate 'wishful thinking' from real goals in my life. In spite of going out in public quite a lot (yes, even to the supermarket... just not with my wife, of course), the truth is that I'm unsure if I could handle living as a woman full-time — especially if that means being alone, scorned and despised by friends, family, and (former...) colleagues. My wife says that she would support me, of course, even though she is quite adamant in her conviction that it would be the most stupid decision ever. I simply don't know for sure any more. It seems to be a lose-lose situation. Felix Conrad, mentioned above, says that one of the questions we must ask ourselves very seriously is: will I be more happy afterwards? (meaning: after transition has been completed) And how much 'more' is 'more'? If the answer is: 'I'm so miserable right now that starting life from scratch as a woman cannot make it worse', then, yes, go ahead with transition. But if the answer is that, like every other choice in life, there will be a good and a bad side to everything, well, then it's best to continue to suffer in silence and do the occasional crossdressing. This is the old adage of choosing the Hell that is already familiar than jump into Heaven, where we have no idea if it'll be better or worse...

Recently, my wife has also suggested that by listing most of my symptoms, she concluded that it's all part of a midlife crisis. Many doctors are reluctant to diagnose a condition merely as 'midlife crisis', because so many of the symptoms overlap classic depression. It's true, however, that an alleged midlife crisis might have a strong effect on someone who also suffers from gender dysphoria. In other words: twenty years ago, gender dysphoria was 'sufferable', especially because we lived in the roaring 1990s, when money flowed like water and there were no worries — I envisioned a bright future where I could live as a woman simply from the interest on my accumulated earnings. Then the whole economy collapsed — first with the dot-com bubble, then with the subprime crisis — and I could kiss all my earnings bye-bye. And, of course, now I'm twenty years older — and possibly at that time of life where I pretty much know that I have simply waited too long, I have wasted too many decades, and now I'm simply too old and a coward and unwilling to 'start from scratch' again — it was so much easier when I was younger and believed much more in my dreams than I do today.

Still, I keep telling myself that Caitlyn Jenner transitioned when she was 64. Sure, I cannot compare my circumstances with hers; the only thing we share is the same supplier of hip pads :) But she's most definitely my role model, more than anyone else. She stifled her urges and desires of wanting to be who she is for decades upon decades, struggled along, fought gender dysphoria all the way, and once she had her whole life settled and could simply look ahead to a comfortable retirement, then she took the Big Step and went ahead with all that she ever wanted — and made a great job of it.

My own life will be by no means as 'comfortable' as Caitlyn's, of course, but I can draw some strength from the notion that she did, after so much time, fulfill her dreams. We cannot predict the future, even though we can do some planning ahead. And the only thing that my wife persuaded me to think about is to look beyond the 'trap' of transition. It seems to be the solution for everything, short-term. But I have to honestly think about what will come next. And that also scares me a lot: I'm not so sure that I would enjoy living the remaining decades of my life, alone, as a trans woman, lost and abandoned by everybody, and most likely having to beg for food in the streets — because, even if I could swallow my pride and offer my body for sale on the streets, the truth is that I'm far too old to be interesting to potential customers anyway. One might think that this is a worst-case scenario, and things will not be that grim. Maybe. But I prefer to prepare mentally for the worst. If I can handle that, then anything which is 'better than the worst' will just look rosy and peachy and, well, wonderful. But right now I can only say that between suffering from gender dysphoria but keeping along with my current life, and starting from scratch a new life, alone, without real hopes of even managing to survive, well... for now, at least, my choice is clear. And the same, of course, applies to most people I know who label themselves trans* — they go through the same reasoning. It's just those who are really desperate, or have at least strong support (usually from parents who can financially help them; sometimes, from a well-off 'boyfriend'), who go for transition. The rest of us just bite the bullet and go ahead with their lives.

Note: apparently, in my country, although all therapy and surgeries are paid by the welfare state, there is a condition for getting hormones (and eventual therapy): you need to commit yourself to live full-time in the gender you identify with. This is different from many other countries where hormone therapy is an acceptable therapy to deal with the worst effects of gender dysphoria, even if the person going through HRT wants to keep their assigned gender role for the sake of appearances. Allegedly, if you go via private doctors instead of through the National Health Service, you might be able to get a nice endocrinologist who will prescribe you some hormones — but, of course, it means paying a lot. My own insurance seems to cover at least the sessions with a medical doctor with the clinical sexology specialisation. So I'll see what will come out of that and pay for a few sessions...


Moderator Edit: It is against Terms of Service #1 to post links to commercial sites
Don't judge, and you won't be judged.
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JMJW

It ticks me off to hear the "hyperfeminine stereotype of a woman that doesn't exist" get tossed around. Say that when you have a brow bone and jawline, a nose and frame that will get you instantly misgendered every single time unless you balance it with hyperfeminine traits.

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AnxietyDisord3r

Quote from: JMJW on October 05, 2016, 01:47:02 PM
It ticks me off to hear the "hyperfeminine stereotype of a woman that doesn't exist" get tossed around. Say that when you have a brow bone and jawline, a nose and frame that will get you instantly misgendered every single time unless you balance it with hyperfeminine traits.

Yup, fair. I do the same thing in reverse. I feel like my gender expression/role is more androgynous than masculine but I try to look as masculine as possible because my physical body is too feminine and gets me misgendered.

Sandra, is it possible for a trans person in your country to own their own business and therefore be in control of their own employment?
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Bunter

Quote from: Amy85 on July 06, 2016, 01:13:01 AM
Does anyone happen to have any anecdotes about a compromise similar to mine that ended up working out? My fiancee would insist that part of the arangement means me keeping the man bits as SRS would be too much for her. Something like that would have been far off in the future if it would have happened but still I am not sure hkw I feel about taking that off the table. I have dreamed about having a vagina almost as long as I can remember and it makes me sad to think that it is no longer a possibility... I don't know if I would do it if she had no problem with it or not but still the possibility of it happening some day was a bit of a comfort to me I guess...

You could check out Helen Boyd's books and website. She is the partner of a former cross dresser/now mtf trans woman. They have gone the super slow/compromise route, and are still married after many years. I think the condition was to keep the male bits too?
<commercial links are not allowed>

Also Sally Molay and Jack Molay's respective websites and blogs.
<Commercial links are not allowed>
There is also a new book by partners of trans people
<Commercial links are not allowed>

Moderator Edit: You can post the name of books or authors and the names of their sites. However we have a policy of not allowing links to commercial sites.
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cheryl reeves

Helen Boyd and her wife divorced after the surgery,she.was supportive up til after the gcs which was a deal breaker.

My wife and I have an agreement and that agreement is I can crossdressing but no hormones or surgery or we will divorce. I love my wife and don't want a divorce.
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Gertrude

Quote from: Bunter on October 09, 2016, 04:49:15 AM
You could check out Helen Boyd's books and website. She is the partner of a former cross dresser/now mtf trans woman. They have gone the super slow/compromise route, and are still married after many years. I think the condition was to keep the male bits too?
<Commercial links are not allowed>

Also Sally Molay and Jack Molay's respective websites and blogs.
<Commercial links are not allowed>

There is also a new book by partners of trans people
<Commercial links are not allowed>
Jenny boylan would be someone positive to look up. There are others. While I find Boyd, aka Gail Kramer funny at times, she comes off as someone perpetually pissed and was probably like that before her spouses transition.   


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Moderator edit: I had to pull the links in the original post that is quoted here. Thus I had to edit this one as well.
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kaitylynn

Wow, some great reading ahead now :)

In the end, all of the decisions and choices are that in the hearts of the person transitioning.  Married or no, one can only go so far in consideration of another before they are no longer living their own life.

I have a partner and we are both involved in the community.  We came up with an agreement that is simple enough.  She needs me to be as real and honest with myself as I can be.  She knows what is coming, we have discussed it at length to make sure this is something that we wish to undergo together.  She has made it clear that she fell in love with me and not a particular body.  She love me for the whole package and that included the fact that I am trans and transitioning.

I love her, the all of her.  I am ever aware of how she is feeling, accepting something.  I would never intentionally do something that would hurt her.  I do what I can to make sure she knows this, that she gets to feel the love I have for her.  I have also resolved that if I ever get to a point that she is not able to accept, I will be open to hearing that.

Anyway, it is an interesting place...transition for two, really.
Katherine Lynn M.

You've got a light that always guides you.
You speak of hope and change as something good.
Live your truth and know you're not alone.

The restart - 20-Oct-2015
Legal name and gender change affirmed - 27-Sep-2016
Breast Augmentation (Dr. Gupta) - 27-Aug-2018
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Sandra M. Lopes

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on October 07, 2016, 06:59:21 AM
Yup, fair. I do the same thing in reverse. I feel like my gender expression/role is more androgynous than masculine but I try to look as masculine as possible because my physical body is too feminine and gets me misgendered.

Sandra, is it possible for a trans person in your country to own their own business and therefore be in control of their own employment?

Oh yes, of course! Note that although discriminating trans people is forbidden by law, that doesn't mean that employers don't have the wildest tricks to 'discriminate' them anyway. One thing they can easily do is impose a dress code inside the office; they have the right to do that, and that right overrides one's right to freedom of expression. That's the whole problem: the employer can 'decide' on whatever 'dressing rules' apply to each employee, and not sticking to those rules is a fair reason to fire them.

But naturally enough trans people can create their own businesses. There is allegedly one of those saunas that are so popular with the gay community who is owned by a transgender woman. In fact, she operates the only sauna in the city that does not discriminate against gender or sexual orientation (all the others, surprisingly, do — they are only for either gay cisgender males or lesbian cisgender females, although one can go into those saunas if you simply omit to state your sexual preference and ask for a single booth). There used to be a very famous bookstore specialised in gender issues which was also owned by a transgender woman; she didn't make enough for a living, though, and eventually had to close the bookstore and emigrate to the UK (but she still was around for a decade or so). And last but not least, one transgender woman started a musical career. She isn't good at singing, but 'good enough' for some popular folk music (which has very low standards of quality anyway) — she already sold one CD, toured Brazil where she sold even more, and came back to do several tours and start thinking about her next CD. Will she become rich and famous? No. But she might survive for a few decades while she still has a youthful appearance and the kind of music that appeals to a certain social class.

These are just a few examples. There might be a few more. I have heard of a trans woman who owns her own hair salon, but because it's in a city 300 km away from me, I haven't checked if it's true or just a rumour. As a rule of thumb, nobody goes to hair salons where trans people work (although it's fine if you're a gay male!), so this one would be the exception!

A few of my friends have also thought on how to start our own business especially targeted to the trans & crossdressing community. Most need spaces where they can feel safe and secure, and where they can try things out, get pictures, learn a bit about makeup and walking in heels, and so forth. Many of those are also ashamed to order things through the Internet and/or go shopping for clothes of a 'different' gender. So there might be a small business opportunity in this area. And of course the model could be replicated — franchised — in other places as well, if it's successful. Who knows, it might be.

Last but not least, I can imagine that some people might be able to work from home — typical examples being graphic artists, software/app developers, web designers, and so forth, because they might never see the customer at all. However, as far as I know, in my country, for some unexplainable reason, although crossdressers come from all classes of society and are, on average, more educated than the average population (a trend which is common world-wide), trans women — even late onset transexuals — have a below-average education. A few might have a technical degree, usually for the kind of male-only job that they cannot possibly continue to do (e.g. construction electrician, logistics operator, and so forth). Others have not even that, and, before transition, would commit to low-paying jobs (like working at odd jobs for supermarkets or other similar big surfaces), exactly the kind that have very strict rules about appearance, and who would never tolerate trans women.

I should not stick to just one side, namely, MtF transgender people. It's actually interesting, but trans men are the total opposite: almost all have a higher education — many are school teachers, in fact — and they simply switch jobs to some place else where they are not directly known. Public school teachers have a huge advantage there, because they're constantly being pushed around from school to school, and it's relatively easy to get placed somewhere else; also, there cannot be any discrimination in public schools, so if you 'reveal' yourself as trans, the State has absolutely no way to kick you off, even if all your colleagues hatefully write a petition to fire you. It doesn't work that way — it has to do with the way the law is written. At one end, there are private spaces: these include people's homes, of course, as well as offices from any sort of organisation (from small associations to financial mega-corporations). In all of these, the owner/boss/manager/whoever is in charge dictates the rules on personal appearance. These don't even need to make sense — in the case of associations and companies they only need to be written down somewhere, but that's all it needs. So on those places, trans women simply have no choice, unless they pass so well as to be completely undetectable (and we all know that happens perhaps in one out of a hundred cases). Trans men might pull it off because they pass so well, but I guess that they would be in constant fear of being 'found out' (even if their ID cards would clearly show that their gender matches their appearance, their boss could still insist in firing them if they don't comply to whatever 'dress code' the boss has in mind). It's unfair (especially because you cannot discriminate against race, religion, sexual orientation, political ideology, etc... so far as none of those have an impact on your personal appearance, of course!), but that's how it works: the point being that if you're unwilling to follow the appearance rules of one company, you should go to the next one. The problem is when there are none available!

Then we have 'private spaces with public access'. These are basically things like restaurants, bars, hotels, malls, shops, and naturally also privately-held open air venues like swimming pools (and yes, saunas too), and so forth, but it also includes things like buses, subway, trains, and any other kind of so-called 'public' transportation (even though the company is private!) — taxis as well (but NOT cars operated by Uber or other companies — these are strictly 'private' spaces). In those places, you can restrict the way people are attired, but you have to clearly state all the rules at a very visible place near the entrances. The law even goes as far as defining things like the size of the notice, the size of the font, and a few graphical design hints (the notice, for instance, has to be visible at a certain distance — you cannot simply print black letters on a black background to comply with the letter of the law, but make it impossible for anyone to know your 'house rules'!). And, in fact, the doors to malls, for instance, are usually all covered with the rules of conduct — you cannot go in naked or in beachwear, you cannot enter if you're already very drunk, no weapons can be carried, you cannot take pictures (not even selfies!) without permission, and so forth. It's quite a long list. But even the city buses have similar notices at the entrance. The main reason for this is actually to make it strictly clear that, for example, minors are not allowed. A good example: it's perfectly legal to operate a bar where you have live sex on stage (one assumes that all are consenting adults). But you must forbid minors from entering. This means clearly placing a notice next to the entrance saying 'Access restricted to adults — live sex is being performed'. This is to inform people about what happens inside: if you're bothered by live sex (say, if you're a religious conservative), then you cannot simply go inside and complain. If you go inside, you know the rules, and you have to abide by them; if you don't, you can be kicked out — no questions asked, and no chance to complain and/or sue the owners. In 'private spaces with public access' the owner still sets the rules; the difference is that all the rules have to be clearly on display. The main reason my group of trans/CD friends can go pretty much to any bar, pub, or restaurant is because nobody has ever thought of writing those notices forbidding us to enter :)

Last but not least, there are 'public' spaces. Some are pretty obvious: the streets, the public parks, all natural reserves, and so forth. But what many people don't know is that all buildings that belong to the State — and in our country this includes not only things like Parliament, but also hospitals, schools, police stations, all public administration buildings, all municipal buildings — including some of the lesser known ones, like theatres for example. I remember I went to a show once with two friends (one is CD, the other trans, currently in transition). Someone said that we would be 'risking it', because people could get offended, kick us out, etc. I said that they could be offended as much as they wanted, but they could do nothing about it: that particular theatre had been bought by the City Hall a few years ago, so it's a 'public' building, and that means it's impossible for them to kick us out for not 'dressing properly' (and we were in our best evening dresses!).

What this means is that if some trans person works for the State, either directly (being part of the bureaucracy) or indirectly (working for an entity that is owned by the public, either at state level, or local level...), they cannot be kicked out merely because they 'dress strangely'. In fact, nobody can be kicked out of the 'public' spaces, no matter how 'strange' they might look like. This has allowed FtM transexuals to keep their jobs in public school — they might just have switched schools, or at least switched classes (it might be too weird for a high school kid to finish a year with a female teacher and start the next year with the same teacher — but now as a male). Most FtM transexuals can pass easily enough, and because their job is done in a public space (as explained), nobody really can force them to dress differently than the gender they identify with (and, of course, it will also be the gender shown on their ID card).

So, the short answer: yes, in my country, trans people can definitely own and run businesses, and dress pretty much as they wish, because the law protects their right to do so; also, they could get a job working for the State (it's tough these days, they haven't admitted many people in the past 15 years or so), or, assuming they already have a job in the civil service, then they will be able to keep it (the worst-case scenario being 'forced' to switch from one entity to a different one).

(Apologies for only answering today)
Don't judge, and you won't be judged.
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kelly_aus

Quote from: Sandra M. Lopes on October 20, 2016, 04:14:41 PM
But naturally enough trans people can create their own businesses. There is allegedly one of those saunas that are so popular with the gay community who is owned by a transgender woman. In fact, she operates the only sauna in the city that does not discriminate against gender or sexual orientation (all the others, surprisingly, do — they are only for either gay cisgender males or lesbian cisgender females, although one can go into those saunas if you simply omit to state your sexual preference and ask for a single booth). There used to be a very famous bookstore specialised in gender issues which was also owned by a transgender woman; she didn't make enough for a living, though, and eventually had to close the bookstore and emigrate to the UK (but she still was around for a decade or so). And last but not least, one transgender woman started a musical career. She isn't good at singing, but 'good enough' for some popular folk music (which has very low standards of quality anyway) — she already sold one CD, toured Brazil where she sold even more, and came back to do several tours and start thinking about her next CD. Will she become rich and famous? No. But she might survive for a few decades while she still has a youthful appearance and the kind of music that appeals to a certain social class.

This shows you know little of folk music and it's fans.. I'm not one particularly, but have been to a few events/gigs/festivals with family over the years and I have always been amazed at the wide variety of people there. Well produced music by skilled performers. The festivals have also been a place where gender diversity was not an issue.

It's 2016, comments about social class make me laugh. The lines between classes have become so blurred as to be meaningless.
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