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Dr Vitale and Testosterone toxicity.

Started by windlep, October 13, 2015, 09:57:24 AM

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windlep

What is the consensus here on Dr Vitale and her hypothesis that testosterone drives gender dysphoria in mtf transgender people?

For those who don't know, she is a psychologist specialising in gender dysphoria, who happens to be trans herself.  Her theory is that for some reason testosterone causes some genetic males to want to be female, which explains why anti-androgens can relieve dysphoria.

http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm

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AnonyMs

I suspect no one is going to agree with me, but I don't have much interest in theories about being transgender. I don't think there's any decent scientific research results, so we're left with theories, better described as guesses. Given the lessons of history I think its safe to say that most theories are wrong, and without even reading it chances are this one is too.

Its great if a theory helps make you happy, find acceptance, or convinces people to help you, but its not the same as being correct. I've given up on understanding it a long time ago, and I find accepting it is enough. It's far more important to know what to do about being transgender, even if you don't know why. Unlike the why of it all, what to do about is firmly established.

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Laura_7

Quote from: AnonyMs on October 13, 2015, 10:39:08 AM
I suspect no one is going to agree with me, but I don't have much interest in theories about being transgender. I don't think there's any decent scientific research results, so we're left with theories, better described as guesses. Given the lessons of history I think its safe to say that most theories are wrong, and without even reading it chances are this one is too.

Its great if a theory helps make you happy, find acceptance, or convinces people to help you, but its not the same as being correct. I've given up on understanding it a long time ago, and I find accepting it is enough. It's far more important to know what to do about being transgender, even if you don't know why. Unlike the why of it all, what to do about is firmly established.

There is a substance called DES which administered to pregnant people resulted in a above average number of transgender offspring. So there has to be a biological connection.
There are a few parts of the brain different in men and women.
Post mortem comparisons show that the transgender peoples parts matched those of the gender they identified with, regardless if they had hrt.

There is an influence of transitter substances during brain development before birth.
Brain and body develop at different times so a mismatch is possible.

Since this is likely to be in a spectrum of possibilities there is a transgender spectrum.

So some people want hormones, and know it, and some crossdress, etc...

Imo its not the hormones themselves. Otherwise all people would react in the same way to hormones.
Its the predisposition of the brain to react to hormones in a certain way imo.
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AnonyMs

Hi Laura,

I think you illustrate my point.

I believe the studies you mention are quite small, so possibly not very reliable. And even if correct they are very narrow data points, and not sufficient to conclusively prove anything. I'd agree its biological because everything is biological, but that's such an inclusive statement that its essentially useless.

There's plenty of scientific theories that are obviously true and are yet are completely wrong, and vice versa (I'd include some data there if I could remember it). I don't think there is enough evidence to support any useful theory of trans with a decent level of confidence. I'm not saying its right or wrong, just that its not possible to 'know' at this point in time.

It's not the case in this post (yet), but I often see people posting about these theories with the assumption that they are established scientific facts and explain everything. I wanted to challenge that.
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Laura_7

Quote from: AnonyMs on October 13, 2015, 01:24:10 PM
Hi Laura,

I think you illustrate my point.

I believe the studies you mention are quite small, so possibly not very reliable. And even if correct they are very narrow data points, and not sufficient to conclusively prove anything. I'd agree its biological because everything is biological, but that's such an inclusive statement that its essentially useless.
Well there are a few views if its biological that are simply more socially acceptable:
-its not a choice
-its not the fault of some upbringing, information from the internet or whatever .

Quote
It's not the case in this post (yet), but I often see people posting about these theories with the assumption that they are established scientific facts and explain everything. I wanted to challenge that.
Well just from pure deduction there has to be something.
As said there are substances known to cause a higher percentage.
And transgender people are around in all cultures. So there has to be a biological connection.

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windlep

Quote from: AnonyMs on October 13, 2015, 10:39:08 AM
I suspect no one is going to agree with me, but I don't have much interest in theories about being transgender. I don't think there's any decent scientific research results, so we're left with theories, better described as guesses. Given the lessons of history I think its safe to say that most theories are wrong, and without even reading it chances are this one is too.

Its great if a theory helps make you happy, find acceptance, or convinces people to help you, but its not the same as being correct. I've given up on understanding it a long time ago, and I find accepting it is enough. It's far more important to know what to do about being transgender, even if you don't know why. Unlike the why of it all, what to do about is firmly established.
Well I think our understanding of the brain is quite limited, we still don't really know what causes depression, for instance.  But I do enjoy speculating, as long as it's based on some evidence and logic. It seems logical that ->-bleeped-<- would be rooted in the brain, and that the sex hormones would be involved somehow.  I suspect it might make people more accepting of transgender people if it's presented as a congenital neurological disorder, which needs corrected via medication and/or surgery.  Otherwise people just think you're crazy/selfish/perverted/whatever, because they think you're making a conscious choice to destroy your family, etc.

Anyway, I wonder what people think of Dr Vitale, is she legit or a quack?
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Phlox1

I showed that paper by Dr. Vitale to my gender therapist a couple of years ago and she was familiar with it.  She also said there was some even more recent information on that theory, but did not go into any details.  So I think she must be a respected person and legit.  However, in this particular paper, she only mentions 2 case stories and that is not enough to form a solid theory based on statistics.
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KristinaM

All I know is that it was at about age 18 that I shutdown emotionally.  I like to think it was due to testosterone saturation in my system, when puberty essentially peaked.

Now that I'm on Spiro and E, I have full command over a wide-range of emotions that I'd forgotten even existed.  I am a much happier person for it.
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HughE

From her page:
QuoteWhen we take into account that all perinatal males experience defeminization of the brain (Wallen and Baum (2002), thereby leaving them incapable of female behavior and sensibility, by testosterone that is converted to estradiol by a process of aromatase, it is not too hard to imagine, that for some reason, yet to become clear to science, that that process could easily have been disrupted leading to incomplete masculinization of some male brains.
This is what happens in rodents, not human beings! In humans and other primates, brain masculinization and defeminization appears to be entirely driven through androgen receptors, with estrogen receptors playing no significant role. So there's a major problem with her theory already.

Unfortunately, most of the research that's been done into sexually dimorphic brain development has used rats and mice, in which aromatization and estradiol play the main role in driving male brain development. However, that's something that appears to be specific to rodents. It doesn't apply in humans anyway, as is shown by a condition called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS), which produces people who are genetically male, but both look and behave just like ordinary, genetically female women. This is despite their aromatase enzyme and estradiol receptors being completely unaffected by the mutation. The rodent equivalent of CAIS is a mutation called Tfm, and it produces mice and rats with a female appearance, but whose behaviour is predominantly male (which shows that there is quite a big species difference there!).

In fact, there's plenty of evidence that MTF transsexuality is due to incomplete masculinization of the brain, either through some kind of genetic condition that reduces testosterone production (e.g. XXY karyotype), or through being prenatally exposed to drugs or chemicals with testosterone-suppressing properties (e.g. DES). It's though there being insufficient testosterone present though, not anything to do with aromatase or estradiol.

QuoteIt is well known that large doses of exogenous estrogens administered to some genetic males, dramatically reduces the anxiety of gender dysphoria. The same outcome is true when gender dysphoric genetic females take testosterone. (i.e. Testosterone increases-->Estrogen decreases = feelings of well being).
This is exactly what you'd expect to happen if trans people have actually undergone cross sex brain development. If you have a female brain, then it's going to be expecting female-typical hormone levels to be present, and it shouldn't be surprising that it doesn't function very well with male-typical hormone levels instead.
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