Where do I go?

[maybe_amanda]

Friuty: I respect what you are saying and yes maybe it's not as important to me as it is too you or others. Maybe my degree of TS is not what yours and others is. I don't know what the answer is and that's why I here.  Please don't dismiss me just because my situation was not just like yours.

The 23 years I was talking about is my "adult" life where I took steps to live as a man. When I started to repress everything I thought inside and I did what society and family expected of me. I don't think I have any self hatred, I don't dislike myself, I just dislike my body, my masculine features. Always have. Is this TS? I don't know. Again, that's why I'm here.

Robin_p: thank you so much.

Ell: no I don't know what I want, where to go. But I do realize what this means to my family and relationships. But just as some of you were driven when you were young to this, that is where I'm at now. Will I go forward, right now I just don't know but I want to learn more about the feelings I have always had.

Berliegh: is it possible that you do not see the older TS's in the clinics because of the embarrassment/shame/ridicule they might feel? I would be OK in a private setting with a therapist, but going to a gender clinic where everyone knew why you were there is more than I could handle. Maybe that means I'm not TS. You said your mom and dad accepted it. I can tell you that there is no way I would have been accepted if I had coming fully out in my teens.

Amy/Karla B: Thanks so much for the support. I can see where Fruity is coming from and I respect that. My situation is different and maybe she thinks I should fit that mold to be TS. Maybe I should. I just don't know.

I feel strongly that if I had something like this forum available when I was pre-teen or even in my teens you would be calling me

. I also lived in a small city (<100,000 people) and very conservative area. Had I grown up in say Los Angeles could things have been different? Maybe?

Here is another point: back in my teens I wondered if I was gay. I was not attracted to men but I could not figure out why I felt like I did on the inside. I had no where to go to find that out. There was not a amazon.com that I could order books from. There were know gender clinics. I was on my own. I did the best I could.

Thanks everyone! So much to think about.

[Jessie_Heart]

Maybe my degree of TS is not what yours and others is. I don't know what the answer is and that's why I here.  Please don't dismiss me just because my situation was not just like yours.

The 23 years I was talking about is my "adult" life where I took steps to live as a man. When I started to repress everything I thought inside and I did what society and family expected of me. I don't think I have any self hatred, I don't dislike myself, I just dislike my body, my masculine features. Always have. Is this TS? I don't know. Again, that's why I'm here.

Maybe that means I'm not TS.

My situation is different and maybe she thinks I should fit that mold to be TS. Maybe I should. I just don't know.


Here is another point: back in my teens I wondered if I was gay. I was not attracted to men but I could not figure out why I felt like I did on the inside. I had no where to go to find that out. There was not a amazon.com that I could order books from. There were know gender clinics. I was on my own. I did the best I could.

dear Amanda

I do not believe in degrees of TS I don't think there is such a thing. Either you are TS or you aren't and noone can tell you that you are or are not TS in the end through self examination and soul searching can you find the answer to this.
you are doing that self examination now and that is a good thing! as far as fitting into the mold of TS isn't the reason that we are all doing this self examination is to break out of the mold we were forced into weather we fit it or not! do not allow yourself to be forced into another one. Therpy can help you through self examination but even a trained theripist cannot tell you who you truely are they can only give you thier views and allow you to take them into consideration to draw your own conclusions. these answers will not come easily you have already had to live with this rift in you identity for a long time if you were not at least comming close to some answers I don't think you would have sought out this forum. and something I try to keep in mind when I feel people were telling me that I was TS enough weather that is what they meant or not ( alot of times things said are meant to provoke thought not to insult or critize but it either comes out the wrong way or because of our own defensiveness we take it the wrong way) is that my ultimate goal is not to become the best TS I can be but to be myself completely and if this means that I need to have my body alterted to be able to be who I am so be it. I don't think any of us are actually trying to just be the top and best TS there is! you are very couragious to be able to admit to yourself that you need to further examine yourself to find the answers you seek. please don't become discouraged because to give up on yourself that would be a terrible injustica to you!



Posted on: September 24, 2007, 01:24:13 PMsorry my mind works faster than my fingers and sometimes my fingers fall behind!!!

[maybe_amanda]

I agree with you, I think you either are or are not a TS.

I guess what I was trying to say is maybe there are degree's of drive to do something about being a TS. Maybe my drive to resolve what I feel inside is not as strong as others. But I'm just beginning this self-discovery so maybe that's not how it works at all.

Thanks so much for your input.

[Berliegh]

Yeah Berliegh, although European, My parents weren't as open as yours, I think you're a very lucky girl that they were so understanding. Anything that had to do with gender bending, You were considered to be Homosexual or out of your freaking Mind. they figured, you were born as a male and raised as one that's the way you should be. There are no alternatives.
It's true, that in europe many of the countrys are and were more libreal than us here, like the UK,Sweden,Denmark,Holland and Germany. I would consider Canada, the Europe of north america but we still have a ways to go yet.

I don't think I've ever been seen as a gender bender.......just normal. No one has ever thought I was homosexual when I was a teenager just because I looked like a girl. I'm not sure my parents were any more understanding than anyone else they just had to go with it as that was me.......

Berliegh: is it possible that you do not see the older TS's in the clinics because of the embarrassment/shame/ridicule they might feel? I would be OK in a private setting with a therapist, but going to a gender clinic where everyone knew why you were there is more than I could handle. Maybe that means I'm not TS. You said your mom and dad accepted it. I can tell you that there is no way I would have been accepted if I had coming fully out in my teens.

Excuse me amanda .......That's all I saw was old T's at the London gender clinic. I never saw any young one's! ....just old T's with stubble and clothes I've not ever seen in the real world...

[Dennis]

Excuse me amanda .......That's all I saw was old T's at the London gender clinic. I never saw any young one's! ....just old T's with stubble and clothes I've not ever seen in the real world...

Knowing the NHS, they had probably put their names on the waiting list when they were 18, it just took them that long to get an appointment

Dennis

[Jessie_Heart]

Excuse me amanda .......That's all I saw was old T's at the London gender clinic. I never saw any young one's! ....just old T's with stubble and clothes I've not ever seen in the real world...

Knowing the NHS, they had probably put their names on the waiting list when they were 18, it just took them that long to get an appointment

Dennis

so are you saying that maybe the stubble formed and thier clothes just went out of date while they were waiting there? sounds like the local post office.

[Berliegh]

Excuse me amanda .......That's all I saw was old T's at the London gender clinic. I never saw any young one's! ....just old T's with stubble and clothes I've not ever seen in the real world...

Knowing the NHS, they had probably put their names on the waiting list when they were 18, it just took them that long to get an appointment

Dennis

so are you saying that maybe the stubble formed and thier clothes just went out of date while they were waiting there? sounds like the local post office.

Humour aside.....they looked like men, spoke like men and acted like men.....it wasn't the image I had of transsexuals...

[maybe_amanda]

Berleigh: I'm so sorry I mis-understood what you were saying.

Fruity: I can tell you it's not going to be a "lifestyle choice" for me. I know how the gay people feel know when
people tell them it's a lifestyle choice. Wow! And how can you think that we are not going to go
through the same pain as you did? Is the pain less because we did it later? I think we will have more pain because we have many
more relationships we have to explain it to and deal with the repercussions.

And again you are lumping me in with the guys you see that are older. If I do move forward I've already formulated a plan of
the steps to take and facial hair removal would be at the top of the list. It's one of my least desirable features because it's so masculine.

Maybe the ones you see that still have stubble, etc, cannot afford to have it removed? Maybe they can't afford clothes of
their own. With all due respect Fruity I feel so much more feminine than you sound when you write these things. Where is your empathy and tolerance of other peoples condition? Your words make me angry but as always though I value your input and will take it to heart and will not dismiss them just because I disagree.

maybe Amanda

[Susan]

Ladies and gentlemen lets stop ganging up on each other. Remember attack the issue, never the person.

[danielle_l]

Fruity I feel so much more feminine than you sound when you write these things. Where is your empathy and tolerance of other peoples condition?

amanda, feeling feminine, to me, has very little relevance to being a woman whatsoever.

I live and work as a woman, and its not about crying, empathy and tolerance. Its about relating, interacting and conversing as a woman. Thats what i do every day. I might cry at a film once a year. You are mixed up with your idea of what women are.

Empathy and tolerance are not female characteristics. I dont even think they are particularly feminine. I've met men who are empathetic and tolerant, and other women who are the opposite.

Women are all different. If you truely identified with women, i feel that you would understand just how different we are from each other, that some of us are tolerant and others intolerant. Some of us are feminine and others masculine. Some have empathy, others are psychopathic. Thats who women are, and i don't think you are aware of that.

Its a common made mistake to identify femininity, with female, or indeed masculine with male. This is why i am saying that you sound to me like you have had your feminine qualities restricted, or repressed somewhere along the line. Someone has told you it is wrong for men to be feminine. You identify acting feminine, as acting like a woman. I think that you are wrong, i think you need to think about things a bit more.

women might tend to femininity, and men, might tend to masculinity, but neither is an identifier of your sexual identity.

I feel feminine, masculine and all kinds of other things depending on the day, and who i interact with. As a woman, or even a man you have to try to be a complete person. I think thats what you are looking for, and you are mistaking it for a sexual identitiy.

I suppose that i feel a bit insulted as a woman, to hear how dancing around in frilly skirts and crying at emotive films have any relevance to being a modern woman in society. I think if you gain any sexual pleasure from having male genetalia, and yet you claim to identify as a woman sexually, its an enormous contradiction. Men like having penises, and women vaginas. The ultimate reality of gender identity is based around that.

If you like your dick, you aint a chick.

i think your mixed up, which i think you honestly and bravely accept, but then i think most late transitioners are mixed up.

its my opinion, and im entitled to it.

having said that, i do wish you every bit of luck with whatever path you choose, trans, or otherwise. Life is very short and i do really hope things go well for you.

[Jessie_Heart]

With all due respect Fruity I feel so much more feminine than you sound when you write these things. Where is your empathy and tolerance of other peoples condition?

ok I am sorry but what exactly does this mean? Women can be as intolerant as men and just as uncaring. there are several FtM t-people here that this has got to sound closed minded and creul to. Why is it that it seems whenever there are disagreements it seems someones femininity gets attacked? it seems that sterotypes are perpetuated here just as much as anywhere else. I just don't understand how we can ever expect people who are not transgendered to accept how different we are from them if we cannot accept the differences we have among ourselves. maybe we need to learn to stop judging each other especially as far as weather someone is TS enough or feminine enough before we have any right to expect anyone else to stop judging us. I want to thank everyone that I have talked to on this forum because in one way or another though understanding or misunderstanding you have helped me make a very important decision. I don't care how anyone else views my femininity ether through my actions or through my attitude or even through my looks if I am not feminine enough for them or if I can not "pass" I don't care I am going to live my life in whatever way makes me happy. I give up on finding acceptance and really I don't need it. there is no hope of finding acceptance in the rest of the world if it cannot be found in a support group for like minded people.

[Karla B]

Amanda, I believe in doing what you can and with the resources that one has. One step at a time . Never let yourself to be pushed in to trying to get things done quicker than your comfort zone allows you. I believe in doing things when one is ready to do them, may it be in your teens,twenties,thirties,fourties and beyond.
There are all kinds of different situations and storys out there. One just has to read them.There are even quit a few on this board.


Fruity, I have nothing against you and I respect your oppinions.
I realize that your life wasn't chiseled in stone nor were any other TSs including mine. That's why I made that comment. By telling me that it wasn't mapped out in stone,You confirmed that You are no different than us older ones. The difference is, that you and us may have made other choices and other mistakes along the path.
Yes, being TS isn't an easy life and it can be a hard thing to deal with for anyone. Sometimes I have my doubts about people that transitioned early in life like late teens or early twenties. Maybe when they are my age they might feel that it wasn't the right thing to do. Who Knows?    

[maybe_amanda]

Fruity, It was a poor choice of words on my part by using feminine instead of female.

If you truly identified with our plight, I feel that you would understand just how different we are from each other.

How does that feel? Saying things like "If you truly identified with women" is hurtful, because I'm just here to find out. I don't want or need the confrontational type exchange you seem what to have. I'm sorry if you don't like "late" TS's or feel that they are inferior to you, or not real, or that my plight is not as great as your. But that's my life, I did not choose it, it is what it is. I'm here to learn.

And I can tell you what it is not. It's not about crying and wearing frilly dresses.

Thank you for your good wishes and hope you find happiness as well.

Posted on: September 24, 2007, 05:08:35 PMJessie, yes, I realize that it was a poor choice of words (and thoughts maybe). I meant to say female not feminine.

I do associate (maybe incorrectly) empathy and tolerance with the female gender. I did not mean to be hurtful or
stereotype anyone and agree with what your saying.

maybe Amanda

Posted on: September 24, 2007, 05:14:11 PMKarla, thanks, I will take it one step at a time.

[Jessie_Heart]

I do associate (maybe incorrectly) empathy and tolerance with the female gender. I did not mean to be hurtful or
stereotype anyone and agree with what your saying.

maybe Amanda

Posted on: September 24, 2007, 05:14:11

it is not a bad thing to associate the two! if this is what femininity means to you and you want to emphisize these characteristics in yourself to express your femininity that is great but in the way it was worded the unspoken message seemed to be that anyone who was masculine was devoid of these  characteristics. I know that is not what was meant and we all say things and don't realize how it may come across when we are aggravated. I am just concerned about the underlying tone some of our ideas seem to present. if we take all of our good characteristics and define them as feminine then it starts to sound as though we believe that masculinity is the oppisite of this. just as if we defined our resolve and inner strengh as male qualities it would seem to say that females cannot posses these characteristics. we are on this journey of self discovery to be able to define ourselves as we see fit and we are striving to do this hopeing to be accepted but we need to remember that there are others at the other end of the spectrum from us who are just as confused as we are and by perpetuating these classic sterotypes we are limiting ourselves and others from being complete because if these are strictly male or female characteristics then someone trying to "pass" will try to diminish what is believed to be the oppisite genders characteristics and they still end up as having to hide who they truely because they can't show thier whole selves.

[Berliegh]

I see both sides of the arguement and I'm stuck in the middle........I started out with my transition about the same age as Fruity or even earlier if you take into account that I was taking hormones at 25, but because of circumstances, financial problems and big problems with the NHS meant my transition has dragged on for more than 16 years! 

So I now end up in the 'old' transsexual bracket which isn't comfortable. It's not where I wanted to be and the whole objective was to transition when I was young.

There is a large amount of people in their 40's who seemed to live as men quite happily all their life, with lovely families in tow with no hint of androgyny or female lifestyle and complete suppression then drop a bombshell that they want a gender change........and even though it's very different from my own experiences....I can except this happens.

I try not to make judgements especially about people I don't know personally and we are all very different in the way we came to this point. Even though we all come under the 'Transsexual' banner we are bound to agree and disagree on some things which is what forum debate is all about. Fruity's comments are just as valid as anyone elses's even though they might blow a few cobwebs away for some.....

[Wing Walker]

I suppose that i feel a bit insulted as a woman, to hear how dancing around in frilly skirts and crying at emotive films have any relevance to being a modern woman in society. I think if you gain any sexual pleasure from having male genitalia, and yet you claim to identify as a woman sexually, its an enormous contradiction. Men like having penises, and women vaginas. The ultimate reality of gender identity is based around that.

If you like your dick, you aint a chick.

i think your mixed up, which i think you honestly and bravely accept, but then i think most late transitioners are mixed up.

its my opinion, and im entitled to it.

having said that, i do wish you every bit of luck with whatever path you choose, trans, or otherwise. Life is very short and i do really hope things go well for you.

I began my transition when I fully abandoned my prior life.  I have always been a woman inside and I believe that I am transitioning from female to female.

That is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

I have yet to dance around in a frilly skirt as I dress for business, so I wear heels with smart, appropriate outfits.

I was 50 years old when I finally did something to settle the "battle of the genders" within me by changing the outside of me to agree with the inside.  I started with my psychiatrist who wisely referred me to a gender therapist.  Six years later I have the opinions of two gender therapists, two psychiatrists, and my own heart, that I was born a woman in a man's body.

I never liked my male genitalia.  When my first ex pressed me to see a urologist about why she wasn't pregnant, the lab studies came back confirming sterility and the urologist described my genitalia as considerably smaller than average.

I could not transition until I was able to overcome my fear of what "the committee of they" would say about it.  Until I first logged-on to the web in 1995 the info that I got was pretty hard to come by, not always reliable.  It was then that I was able to find what I needed to know and make contact with other women who have made the same transition.

If you like your dick, you aint a chick.

This is by no means a lifestyle choice for me.  It is where my life needs to be.  When it's gone, it's gone.  I almost did it myself but not being a surgeon stopped me.  I had neither the tools nor the training to do an orchiectomy and other urinary tract surgery.  Just as well.  The surgeon I will be seeing needs whatever's left for my neo-vagina.

I didn't like the waiting but it all came out for the best for me as I am on the list for surgery in about eight months.

I am over 50, by one standard a late transitioner.  I am grateful to my Creator that things happened for me as they did.

Is it possible that someone can transition too early and end-up regretting it and praying for a reverse-surgery?  Just curious.

My best to all reading this as the psyche can be a really confusing place to navigate.

Wing Walker

[Jessie_Heart]

Is it possible that someone can transition too early and end-up regretting it and praying for a reverse-surgery?  Just curious.

My best to all reading this as the psyche can be a really confusing place to navigate.

Wing Walker

if by early you mean they rush headlong into it with out being sure it is what they need and who they are it is very possible it has happened! if by early you mean age, I personally don't think age has much of anything to do with any part of this I personally think that the right time is just as personal and varied as the road to self discovery and feelings involved. 

[danielle_l]

Fruity, It was a poor choice of words on my part by using feminine instead of female.

well, ok amanda, its a learning curve isn't it, and thats why your here right?

If you truly identified with our plight, I feel that you would understand just how different we are from each other

you're right. I don't identify with your plight at all. Most older transitioners wives, struggle to identify with it as well.

if i'd grown up, with the man i love, thinking he is going to be there for ever, having found the one i wanted to be with, and then have him suddenly tell me he's a woman and my whole life has been a lie. It would destroy me, i might never get over it. He'd even make me question my own sexuality.

Many older transitioners destroy their wives lives, but they tend not to care so much about that. Probably, because they don't even see it. Its because, realistically, they don't identify with women at all.

older transitioners, if they really are transexuals, have lied to their spouses their entire lives. They have to accept that. They have to accept that they have lied about who they are to everyone the have interacted with since the day they were born.

if they do that, maybe then i'll give them a bit more credit, and be more sympathetic. However, while its all about 'me me me' showing no sign of any empathy or understanding of the female position, a female that they are supposed to understand, you have to accept that if the situation is like that, as a woman, i am going to side with women, and not older transitioners.

I'm sorry if you don't like "late" TS's or feel that they are inferior to you

i never said they were inferior, they are your words. They're just not like me. I dont understand them, and they don't really understand me. Im not judging, just saying what i see.

despite what i've said, its obvious that some older transitioners make the change successfully, so there clearly is a future for you if you really want to take that path. Its not upto me who is and who isn't a transexual, but i will call a spade a spade when its neccesary.

So I now end up in the 'old' transsexual bracket which isn't comfortable

kim (berleigh) you are older, but you started hrt along time ago. As far as i know you've pretty much lived as a woman your entire life? So, you aren't someone who has suddenly decided they are a woman and based it all on crying at a film, or sitting down to pee once when they were five.

you have a whole lifetime of real experiences as a woman, whereas older transtioners are imagining theirs. Its not the same thing at all.

a vast proportion of what makes a woman, is her experiences as a woman. If an older transitioner is transitioning at 50, they have missed out 50 years of development as a woman. You can't fake 50 years experience, and its a bit arrogant, and ultimately misogynistic to suggest you can.

[cindybc]

Hi maybe_amanda

I believe that you are progressing onto the road of discover. Look within, within is where our true selves will be found. All that you need  do is to alter the outside to harmonise with the inside.

I to had the opportunity to live as the gender within. I was 15 and hitchhiked to New york and to join with the Hippies in one of the many communes that were springing up everywhere back in 62. Wearing unisex clothes which was a popular style back then. I to had butt length hair and very much feminine features and no facial hair yet. I even fell in love with one of the guys. He really was a prince charming, very sweet and very cute kid. We never invited more then just fondling and kissing but it was like living out a wonderful fantasy come true, living as a girl in this commune. It was the most precious and wonderful experience I had in all the years of the young age I was then and after. You may ask which gender I would prefer in a relationship? Well I found both sexes attractive, but only as an artist would standing back appraising his or her work of art.

So not knowing what to do yet since I am getting up in years, (retired old hippy I call myself). I met another  M to F  and after several conversations on the phone and by way of emails we finally got together face to face and a few months later we were married in Ontario. Not for sex both of us were then and still are not stimulated towards each other sexually. But we do have a very close and sometime intimate relationship but sex is out of the question. Well I been called weird and odd, stupid, witch,  so many times through the years, it wouldn't make any difference if they added the  label lesbian to the collection. So I have become used to all this label calling, but if anyone appears to be pushing the envelope on me, and they get the birdy from me, well my Soul mate is very protective of me and she is a pretty good size T girl.

For all the years between leading up after I left the commune the biggest deterrent that made me hold back from transitioning  was FEAR  I finally made the decision  7 years ago I came out and began living in the right gender for keeps. At the point where I had to make a decision to either do myself in or swim with the current  my biggest fear was, "What will people say and do?"  Yep our biggest fear is what will the community of they would do or say?. They didn't, most people out there will not even pay you any attention, unless they bumped into you. their minds are mostly preoccupied with their own personal little lives. world  and never had any problems. But I have changed or altered much of my personality and attitude to match my inner self. Other then that I am still the old me.

Cindy   

Posted on: September 25, 2007, 05:17:45 AMI left no one behind with tears, and the only reason it took me 55 years to come out full time was that I never found out about gender dysphoria only just ten years ago. It was simply only fear that held me back. No you don't or can't learn every thing over the span of just a few years what being a woman is like.  I just simply learned the characteristics of women because I  have probably spent more time in the company of women then with then fellow males.

I also had the opportunity to have had 11 children go under my roof through the years. The rest after I started full time is elementary.  I had the surgery done four years ago and I have more self esteem and pride in who I am now then I ever had in most of my life. Much preferable then to die in  alcoholic oblivion.  I have moved around a good half of the US and from coast to coast of Canada with my soul mate. We come and go as we wish without any fear at presenting as who we are anywhere we go. It doesn't even take up space in our minds anymore, we are who we are. Yep wasted way to much of my life presenting the wrong gender but now I am who I am enjoying (savoring) every moment of it and that's how it's. Every moment is precious and make up every moment that we can.

Cindy

[Berliegh]

I left no one behind with tears, and the only reason it took me 55 years to come out full time was that I never found out about gender dysphoria only just ten years ago.

Where were you living Cindy, the artic? ....lol....gender dysphoria has been widely known for a good few 50 or 60 years and I was taught about it at school when I was 15. ...........

I really like your stories about the early part of the hippy era and I wish life was like those halcyon days now.....