I've had GRS... NOW do you believe me?

[tinkerbell]

Also, for heterosexual girls like us, it is imperative if we want to be romantically/sexually involved with men.  True, having a penis does not prevent us from doing so, but it DOES NOT feel right (at least in my case it didn't) IMHO and in my case, having a congruent body and mind was (is) VERY important despite the cliche which states that "gender is between the ears"

tink

I guess I may be wierd (ok I know I'm wierd but I may be wierder than I thought) but even though I am a lesbian I have never felt right using a penis and I feel that in order for me to ever have a fullfilling sex life I will have to have SRS. is it unusaul for a lesbian like me to feel this way? I am just courious!!

I wouldn't consider it unusual at all.  You are just a woman and like most of us simply have the need to have an anatomy that is congruent with your mind.  Your gender identity has nothing to do with your sexual orientation.

tink

[Jessie_Heart]

ok just wondering thanks for the reply Tink!

[Berliegh]

Trust me, having SRS/GRS isn't going to change someone's mind who is alre4ady made up. They'll point out the Bible verses to say God created you a man and that means you're still a man. Or in the case of others that don't use the Bible to put us down but still don't see TS women as "real" women, they'll say "You weren't born a woman / You never had a period / etc. so will "Never know what it feels like to be a "real" woman...

People have to get SRS/GRS for their own reasons, not to convince anyone else.

There is the matter of legal documentation. - In the U.S. requiring SRS/GRS and proof of that to get a "F" gender marker on the drivers license, so that is a legal consideration. But that is the government / legal system, not individuals' opinions.

Myself, I would go for FFS, like Sandy did - outside of all the warnings of how intense the surgery and recovery is, looking at her pre and post FFS pictures, it's clear to me that FFS is the one thing that would make the biggest difference in other's acceptance who's opinions / views could be swayed. Also, FFS erases a lot of the old male facial gender cues, so it takes away a lot of what people visually remember you looking like in the face for those who knew you and remember you as a guy.

The hormones do soften the face somewhat, and even a small amount of chest growth can make a difference in how you feel about yourself. However, unless you go around in a string bikini top, the chest change isn't going to mentally register as strongly in people's minds (the clothes hide the chest so people create a mental image of a male chest if they know you as a male unless they've seen you withoout your shirt on).

Facial surgery is very important to me - for seeing myself in the mirror and presenting myself to others.

Then there is the matter of body weight. Women can be overweight but have big hips - they don't have the typically male "beer guts" and narrow male hips, so weight loss for some people (like myself) to get rid of that gut is very important.

Also walking and moving and talking like a woman vs a man are going to be big gender cues.

SRS/GRS is not for me. It's not how I define myself. The other things I mentioned (other than SRS/GRS) are much more imortant to me.



Posted on: September 29, 2007, 12:47:56 PMLooking at Deb's picture, I am going to add to my comments a little - I was mostly thinking about my own situation.

For someone who transitions young - and someone who looks as young and beautiful as Deb - then SRS/GRS would be a very important thing to get done - to get on with a Female life and work history at the earliest possible point in time and to be able to date and enjoy life as a young women.

Sounds like you mostly agree with me.....

[Hypatia]

It's true that being a woman means needing to have a body congruent with one's gender, regardless of sexual orientation. But if you look at it from the sexuality point of view, actually, it seems to me a hetero woman would have if anything an even greater need for a vagina than a lesbian. Some lesbians like to do each other with strap-ons. But hetero men would definitely prefer to do all the penetrating, and to accommodate them you should have a vagina.

[Jessie_Heart]

It's true that being a woman means needing to have a body congruent with one's gender, regardless of sexual orientation. But if you look at it from the sexuality point of view, actually, it seems to me a hetero woman would have if anything an even greater need for a vagina than a lesbian. Some lesbians like to do each other with strap-ons. But hetero men would definitely prefer to do all the penetrating, and to accommodate them you should have a vagina.

I understand your point here and I was not trying to speak for all lesbian women just was wondering if what I felt was unusaul from what other lesbians felt I don't do the penatration thing so I guess I am more of a bottom lesbian. I really only wanted to know if I was so much different by how I felt!

[Hypatia]

Bottoms up! 

[Christo]

Also, for heterosexual girls like us, it is imperative if we want to be romantically/sexually involved with men.  True, having a penis does not prevent us from doing so, but it DOES NOT feel right (at least in my case it didn't) IMHO and in my case, having a congruent body and mind was (is) VERY important despite the cliche which states that "gender is between the ears"

tink

I guess I may be wierd (ok I know I'm wierd but I may be wierder than I thought) but even though I am a lesbian I have never felt right using a penis and I feel that in order for me to ever have a fullfilling sex life I will have to have SRS. is it unusaul for a lesbian like me to feel this way? I am just courious!!

I wouldn't consider it unusual at all.  You are just a woman and like most of us simply have the need to have an anatomy that is congruent with your mind.  Your gender identity has nothing to do with your sexual orientation.

tink

woooo hooo   way 2 go princes hehehehheheh

[Jessie_Heart]

Bottoms up! 

I have done plenty of bottoms up (my wife is I guess the top she likes doing the penertration thing!!) 

[Julie Marie]

In a recent conversation with my ex, I was talking about having GRS in June.  In the conversation she referred to a friend of mine she met.  She has never seen this friend presenting as male.  However, she used male pronouns but her female name when referring to her.  Then she made this comment regarding a person having GRS, "After the surgery she will be a woman."  My ex comes across as a very accepting person (as long as it's not her husband).  She has told me of countless times about TGs who have come into her store and had their hair done or purchased cosmetics and how she was totally okay with them.  I know she wanted me to feel there wasn't something terribly wrong with me but when she talked about these incidents I got the impression she accepted these customers as woman.  I was wrong.  And when I first told her I was having the surgery she said she was surprised.  Knowing her the way I do I'd say shocked is a more accurate description.

I will have GRS first.  That's what's most important to me.  Then I'll have FFS to get rid of the male markers I now have to hide.  My guess is if there are people who are still in denial after my GRS the FFS will tell them loud and clear this is for real.  We'll see.  Whatever the case I'll just accept it and move on.

The reason I originally posted this is I found myself somewhat surprised that after all I've said and done that anyone would have any doubts about my intentions.  But denial is a powerful thing and knowing that I shouldn't have been surprised.  This is just another lesson learned in my transition.  I'm not negatively affected by it, just a bit surprised.  I thought I have been pretty clear.

I guess we all need to take a good look at the reactions of family and friends and make sure they really understand what we said is for real.  That is, if it's important to you.  This society is very affected by visual presentation.  Standing in front of someone you know dressed in your identified gender is completely different than telling them your life story and how you feel and what you must do.  In all likelihood, the former will have a much bigger impact on them than the latter. 

Julie

[tinkerbell]

However, she used male pronouns but her female name when referring to her.  Then she made this comment regarding a person having GRS, "After the surgery she will be a woman." 

Julie

Perhaps she meant "anatomically".  Most cisgender people think that you *become a woman* the moment you have SRS.  Some will even go further and imply that a TS woman is a man regardless of the surgeries she might have had or the time she has lived her life as a woman.  What can I say?  unfortunately we live in that kind of world.  I guess we just have to educate every chance we get; it may not make such a big difference but at least the peace of mind we'll get from it will be worth it (at least in our circle of people we treat on a daily basis)

tink  

[Berliegh]

However, she used male pronouns but her female name when referring to her.  Then she made this comment regarding a person having GRS, "After the surgery she will be a woman." 

Julie

Perhaps she meant "anatomically".  Most cisgender people think that you *become a woman* the moment you have SRS.  Some will even go further and imply that a TS woman is a man regardless of the surgeries she might have had or the time she has lived her life as a woman.  What can I say?  unfortunately we live in that kind of world.  I guess we just have to educate every chance we get; it may not make such a big difference but at least the peace of mind we'll get from it will be worth it (at least in our circle of people we treat on a daily basis)

tink  

GRS or SRS doesn't make someone a woman and I have seen many 'men' who have had GRS........You are either a women from the start or not no matter what your genitalia is. You can usually tell who is naturally femimine and GRS is not in any way a gender indicator or a full gender change........I've seen women who still have their penises who look, feel and present far more as a 'women' than many people I've seen who have had GRS.....

[tinkerbell]

However, she used male pronouns but her female name when referring to her.  Then she made this comment regarding a person having GRS, "After the surgery she will be a woman." 

Julie

Perhaps she meant "anatomically".  Most cisgender people think that you *become a woman* the moment you have SRS.  Some will even go further and imply that a TS woman is a man regardless of the surgeries she might have had or the time she has lived her life as a woman.  What can I say?  unfortunately we live in that kind of world.  I guess we just have to educate every chance we get; it may not make such a big difference but at least the peace of mind we'll get from it will be worth it (at least in our circle of people we treat on a daily basis)

tink  

GRS or SRS doesn't make someone a woman and I have seen many 'men' who have had GRS........You are either a women from the start or not no matter what your genitalia is. You can usually tell who is naturally femimine and GRS is not in any way a gender indicator or a full gender change........I've seen women who still have their penises who look, feel and present far more as a 'women' than many people I've seen who have had GRS.....

I agree with you on the fact that SRS doesn't make anyone a woman; however, if someone says they are women (regardless of passing issues), the right thing to do is to treat them as what they identify.  We have had endless discussions about this here at Susan's.  Passing shouldn't be a factor to determine gender identity or to "qualify" someone as a woman or a man.  I know I have been guilty of doing this myself (I'm guilty as charged).  Sometimes it is an automatic response and you feel that you don't have any control over it.  Nevertheless, as I said, the correct thing to do is to address people as what they wish to be addressed.

tink

[debisl]

I also agree with you Tink. SRS is not the cure all for GID. I have always addressed people in their desired sex. There have been times when in my mind I was not sure what a person was so I just tried to take an educated guess. Sometimes I was right and some wrong.

All of us have to start from the begining at some point in our lives. Some peoples point is at a young age and some at a more mature age. We should always be as suportive as we can, so that no one has to go through rough times alone. I have heard some on this site say that unless you were at the stage they were at, they could not see giving advise. Girls and Boys you all started at the begining, and wouldn't it have been nice to have had a friend to talk to that had a little more time into this venture. I would have given anything to have had friends when I started that I could relate to. Don't be cruel!!

Julie I beleive in you. Anyone here that pours their heart out to strangers deserves to be treated with the utmost respect. I think that is all anyone here has ever wanted.

Deb

[Suzy]

I know I have been guilty of doing this myself (I'm guilty as charged).  Sometimes it is an automatic response and you feel that you don't have any control over it.  Nevertheless, as I said, the correct thing to do is to address people as what they wish to be addressed.
tink

Thanks, Tink, for a wonderful, honest response.

Kristi

[Julie Marie]

We should always be as suportive as we can, so that no one has to go through rough times alone. I have heard some on this site say that unless you were at the stage they were at, they could not see giving advise. Girls and Boys you all started at the begining, and wouldn't it have been nice to have had a friend to talk to that had a little more time into this venture. I would have given anything to have had friends when I started that I could relate to. Don't be cruel!!

Deb

Deb, this is at the heart of what I've been saying.  It's all about acceptance, both of oneself and of others.  When you hear someone criticize the actions of another aren't they really saying, "I'm not as messed up as them"?  It takes the focus away from you and directs it on others, whom most of us don't really even know.  It's much easier to point out the faults in others than it is to work to correct the faults in yourself.

What's right for you is right for you.  Don't try to force your beliefs on others.  If someone is struggling and asks for your help, by all means give it.  But do so with the knowledge that your opinion is affected by your personality, your upbringing and your life's experiences.  What works for you may not, and probably won't, work for someone else.  We are all unique individuals and I see no harm in supporting one another, regardless if what they are doing suits our personality or not, so long as no one is hurt.

Acceptance, caring, love.  They sure beat being judgemental, intolerant and prejudiced.

Julie

[cindybc]

Hi Deb and all

This is why I mainly came back to Susan's after being away for seven years. to support others in any way I can. Why? Because that is the type of person I am, always doing what I can to support another. I have done support work on other groups, none transgender, and I have also worked as a social worker for 20 years. I am post op but it took me nearly ten years getting there and I knew well what gender I was well before I got the operation. Now I am me, the me that was always within. I am woman.

Cindy   

[Wing Walker]

I have concluded that since anyone will believe whatever they choose, I don't care who believes I am female or not.  I know who I am and as a result of HRT all of the mental and emotional inconsistencies within me have been rectified.  I am a woman, 24/7 because of how I see the world, see myself, deal with others, and how I see myself.  Words fail me here because for all of my life I have been like a building with its wiring all messed-up.  Some "floors" had alternating current, others radio frequency, some direct current.  To make life even more fun, the current in the building wasn't fit for its needed purpose, like plugging a toaster into 440 volts or trying to run an old-fashioned electric clock with a synchronous motor on 240 volts Direct Current.

There were more misfits and contradictions within me than there are in the entire U.S. Congress!

When I began taking estrogen under the supervision of my internist I started to feel a new serenity, a smoothing of rough edges, even to the point of warmth and softness where there had been none before.  I remember very well how it changed my gait, my posture, how I carried and held myself, how I took a seat; how I perceived and saw things, my choice of words, the syncopation of my speech,  everything I could think of.  I had some rudimentary sense of things that I never felt before.

The freedom continues and it is the stuff of dreams come true.

I will have my GRS in December 2008 or sooner, but since July 2, 2002 I have considered myself to be a "woman-in-progress."  I am not yet physically ready in my own mind to have intimate relations with anyone, so I don't.  My genitals have atrophied and shrunk and that's just fine with me. 

When I have GRS I will look at myself as soon as I can, and with stitches and all I will know that I am finally complete.  As the late Harry Chapin once sang, "...I finally like myself.  At last, I like myself."

The last place I have ever looked for support is in the family into which I was born and I have not been disappointed with their total nonacceptance of me.  Pits on them.  The new family I have found among my sisters is all the family I need.

Thank you for allowing me to decant.

Wing Walker
Part-time Resident Wind Bag

[Kate]

I see no harm in supporting one another, regardless if what they are doing suits our personality or not, so long as no one is hurt...

Acceptance, caring, love.  They sure beat being judgemental, intolerant and prejudiced.

And sometimes... well, sometimes being loving and accepting also may mean allowing others to BE judgemental, intolerant and prejudiced

~Kate~

[debisl]

Julie what you said has hit home.

I need to appologise to some here on this site. When I try to help the best way I know how I always seam to put my foot in my mouth. I tend to be brutaly honest with people and sometimes I hurt them and it is not my intension to do so. My way of learning might not work for others. I did not have a complicated transition to womanhood as I did not have a spouse or kids to contend with. I just expect people to advance at the pase I di and that is not possible for all.

Thank You for bringing this out

Deb

[Julie Marie]

I see no harm in supporting one another, regardless if what they are doing suits our personality or not, so long as no one is hurt...

Acceptance, caring, love.  They sure beat being judgemental, intolerant and prejudiced.

And sometimes... well, sometimes being loving and accepting also may mean allowing others to BE judgemental, intolerant and prejudiced

~Kate~

And if they choose to be judgmental or prejudiced, so be it.  It doesn't change who you are and it can only affect you if you let it.  We can't change other people, only ourselves.  Show people by example.  Be true to yourself.  Whatever the world does, it does.  We can't allow ourselves to be controlled by that if we want to know true peace and happiness.

Deb, I didn't intend what I said to be directed at you.  It was making general statements.  That it helped you warms my heart but I want you to know nothing I said was directed towards you.

Julie