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"Female" Habits You Wish You Could Drop Like A Sack Of Hammers

Started by Tristyn, November 30, 2015, 07:30:30 PM

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Tristyn

This topic is especially geared towards pre-transitioned FTMs and/or FTMs who have recently come out like I have. I still possess alot of these unwanted feminine habits. Some of the ones that I can think of right now that really bother me, especially when I'm in public is the tone of voice I use when excited (kinda hard to have a deep voice without T and manage to keep it flat, but even harder when excited), placing my fingertips nearly inside of my mouth out of nervousness, flailing around bugs, saying "mmmhmm," "oh my god," and/or "oh no," as filler words, alot, during conversation, walking/sitting on my toes (makes ya look like a freakin' ballerina), the list goes on.

So how about you dudes?
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AeroZeppelin92

Although I wouldn't say it's a "female" habit, I walked around hunched over for ten years trying to hide my chest and now that I've had surgery I catch myself slumped over sometimes still. Hard to break a habit that I've had that long, but I'm working on it haha.

Other than that sometimes I'm guilty of the voice inflections when excited, but not as often as I used to.

I try not to think about it as much anymore, but I definitely understand it's hard not to think about it pre-T
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Kylo

I picked up some of my mother's speech mannerisms, but they only tend to come out when I'm explaining/lecturing; it's the style of talk she would use when explaining or teaching, since she's a scientist and whatever else. I'm not sure the inflections and speech style is necessarily female-like, but I associate it so strongly with her it's hard not to think it must be. She's an aggressive speaker though; even when she's not drunk out of her brain. It's not girlish-sounding, but authoritative. I've had people note that I sounded "scary" giving mandatory talks during my uni time, and I know I was emulating her speaking style back then because she was already a professional and role model. That was pretty funny. But being told I look or sound scary is a running theme in life. I don't personally think I do, but others apparently think so, males and females have mentioned it.

I don't think I have a lot of feminine habits, tbh. I'm kind of a clean freak, but that ain't gonna change, especially if I take T and start to sweat more or smell stronger. I do walk carefully, I'll pick my way between puddles and mud and the like when I'm out walking, but that's just sense, right? Who wants muddy-ass shoes and jeans when they get home? I generally take a lot of care with whatever I'm doing, I'm definitely not clumsy... but I don't think being clumsy is a male given. Since art is my job, I'm so used to being precise and careful with my hands, it's just second nature to apply it to everything else as well.

Excessive hand-washing, maybe? I really can't operate with dirty hands.

I have noticed a change in the last 3 years since I came out, I stopped crossing my legs when sitting, stopped making more feminine hand gestures I must have picked up somewhere, stopped using conversation fillers and exclamations to put people at ease so much. One thing that isn't very "male" is to stare people in the eyes a lot during friendly conversation, especially with another male. I'm real good at that and I think it makes others nervous, though I don't think it's a female behavior either. It comes from when I was a kid with social problems and I couldn't look people in the eye; I eventually trained myself to do it so well I could stare a fish down a this point and it sometimes makes people uneasy I think. I don't care man, I'm enjoying that ability and I'll look someone right in the eye for hours if we're having a particularly intense conversation. It does add a great deal of confidence to your appearance apparently.


"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Elis

I hate that my voice becomes high pitched when I get excited and that I don't have the manliest of walks. I notice the lattter more when I'm wearing trousers as they sit on my hips, so I walk kind of awkwardly. I also hate that I do the stereotypical queer guy thing of using a lot of hand gestures when i talk  :(. Hopefully it'll get better the more I'm on T.
They/them pronouns preferred.



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Tristyn

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on November 30, 2015, 08:11:26 PM
I picked up some of my mother's speech mannerisms, but they only tend to come out when I'm explaining/lecturing; it's the style of talk she would use when explaining or teaching

Yeah, I get even more effeminate in my vocal tonality during these type of conversations the most, it seems.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on November 30, 2015, 08:11:26 PM
I don't think I have a lot of feminine habits, tbh. I'm kind of a clean freak, but that ain't gonna change, especially if I take T and start to sweat more or smell stronger. I do walk carefully, I'll pick my way between puddles and mud and the like when I'm out walking, but that's just sense, right? Who wants muddy-ass shoes and jeans when they get home? I generally take a lot of care with whatever I'm doing, I'm definitely not clumsy... but I don't think being clumsy is a male given. Since art is my job, I'm so used to being precise and careful with my hands, it's just second nature to apply it to everything else as well.

Imma huge germaphobe, like my mom and other females from my mama's side of the family. I think that's one reason my dad can't stand me sometimes, is cause to him, I am just like my mama. But I am super clumsy. Or maybe I just think that cause my dad, among others, have told me I am all my life. I honestly do not think I am clumsy. A little naive. But definitely not clumsy. I am a fast, hands-on learner. Once I learn something, I get pretty good at it pretty fast. :)


Quote from: T.K.G.W. on November 30, 2015, 08:11:26 PM
Excessive hand-washing, maybe? I really can't operate with dirty hands.

I ditto that. But being a dialysis patient has definitely helped with this on my end.


Quote from: T.K.G.W. on November 30, 2015, 08:11:26 PM
One thing that isn't very "male" is to stare people in the eyes a lot during friendly conversation, especially with another male. I'm real good at that and I think it makes others nervous, though I don't think it's a female behavior either. It comes from when I was a kid with social problems and I couldn't look people in the eye; I eventually trained myself to do it so well I could stare a fish down a this point and it sometimes makes people uneasy I think. I don't care man, I'm enjoying that ability and I'll look someone right in the eye for hours if we're having a particularly intense conversation. It does add a great deal of confidence to your appearance apparently.

Absolutely. Having strong eye contact gives a guy a huge confident look. I totally suck at it right now, tbh, but I think I am slowly getting better, especially for a guy with social anxiety on my side. It helps right now just to really focus for several seconds on one eye and then switch to the other one. When it gets tough, I may clear my throat, reach for a cup of water or do some natural-looking complimentary action along with averting my gaze away from the person I am talking to for only a couple of seconds and then either return to looking them in one eye or their ear or even their chin if its real tough for some reason. I recently started concentrating on my reflection in the person(s)' eyes I am speaking with to show them I am focused on them and what they are saying. It helps, in my case. And yeah, like you said, the more intense a conversation is, the more intense eye contact we should all give and receive.

For instance, last week when I went to a successful interview for volunteering, I had a conversation with a guy in the waiting room about why its good to never smoke a day in your life. Since this topic is rather serious already, he also mentioned his wife as being a heavy smoker and I spoke about the damage smoking has done to my mom. So in this scenario, without even thinking about it, I was able to maintain very intense eye contact as if I was naturally letting the guy know that I am listening and that what he is saying is important, I know he is listening, I know he means what he says, that I mean what I am saying and that too is important. Having good eye contact is part of being naturally social as humans I suppose.

And now, after looking in retrospect about how I feel when I once spoke with someone with extremely poor eye contact even in comparison to mine (or maybe even about the same at the time), caused me to feel like I was not really being listened to, was boring them and I even felt offended at one point. So that makes me even more weary about maintaining good eye contact throughout conversations. One rule of thumb to remember is that you can avert your eyes more often if you are the one talking; much less often if you are the one listening. Bad or no eye contact is almost like a sign of humility, so that definitely does not look good on a guy.
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FtMitch

I have the advantage of the fact that while I always dressed pretty feminine (I love fashion, which makes sense considering I am a clothing stylist), I have always "acted" male, which is the main reason many people thought I was a lesbian and pretty much no one was shocked when I came out as trans.  I have always talked conversationally from the chest rather than the throat, sat with my legs spread, taken up way too much space, talked too loud, made inappropriate jokes, had a crazy high sex drive, called everyone 'man' or 'dude', punched or slapped guys on the shoulder to greet them, brohugged people, and walked in a "dude-ish" way (the word I used to describe my behaviors before coming out).  On top of that, I'm basically a gay man now, so I can totally blame my love of clothing and artistic endeavors as well as any feminine traits remaining on that, right?  ;)  But, seriously, the things I am looking to fix are these:

1) Crossing my legs tightly - This one actually only took about two weeks to fix.  I almost always crossed my legs tightly when they weren't spread apart because it seemed more comfy than sitting with my foot on my knee (a guy leg cross).  But within two weeks, sitting with them crossed tightly started feeling weird, and "on the knee" became my go to.  I guess it's whatever you're used to with that one.

2) Talking too fast - I talk way too fast.  I am just a talker, and I love to gab on and on.  I am trying to slow down to make my voice a little more masculine, but I doubt I will succeed on this.  I like to talk too much.

EDIT: I was trying to think if I actually know cis guys who talk slower than women, and I couldn't think of any--my dad and I are both talkers and have very similar speech patterns--so I searched the topic. It seems, according to a language researcher, that men actually talk about 3-5 WPM faster (hardly any actual difference), but that people REGARD women as talking faster when they are speaking at the same rate because they expect women to talk less than men.  Dunno how true this is (though the actual research seems legit), but it's certainly food for thought! 
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003423.html
http://www.lisashea.com/lisabase/biology/thefemalebrain/womentalkfaster.html


3) Not using "like" or "super" so much - 'That movie was, like, super lame, man.'  <-- a normal comment from me

4) Not using my hands or touching my face so much when I talk - I dunno if touching your mouth or face when you talk is feminine, but I am trying to train myself to keep my floaty hands on my lap.  But if I can't do it, I will totally use the gay excuse! ;)

5) Not being QUITE so sexually explicit when joking with/talking to people - things that are laughed off when said by a female could definitely get me in trouble as a male!

Honestly, I wish that I had someone who could evaluate the way I act and speak and let me know what I need to change to seem more masculine.  I am not sure whether or not the things I do are feminine or not.  It is hard for me to tell what is fem and what is not because I have spent my whole life with people going on and on about how masculine I act... And yet I know that some of the stuff I do is feminine, too.  It makes it hard to discern what to keep and what to drop.  I thought about trying to video myself interacting with my friend and then watching it to see what I need to change... But then I figured that was an awful lot of work when I am trying to become more LIKE MYSELF instead of being someone I'm not.  I figure some of it will come with time.  After all, no one taught me how to act feminine (my parents raised me in a very non-binary home). I just picked up those things from the people around me's expectations.  So hopefully masculine stuff will come the same way to some degree.
(Started T November 4, 2015)
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jlaframboise

Yeah, I stand a way that looks very feminine sometimes. But I think ultimate acceptance with yourself is being okay with standing a little feminine sometimes.
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Nicole Wilson

May be a bit off subject  but Hank Willaims jr on stage when singing seems a bit fem in hand movements and gesters.. but is straight ,   but if you feel you are acting to fem try putting hands in pockets when you talk   it is what i did when trying hide my fem gesters from everyone, even though  i was born a male  if it helps you some good if not not do not dispair keep at it
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FtMitch

Quote from: Nicole Wilson on November 30, 2015, 11:07:45 PM
May be a bit off subject  but Hank Willaims jr on stage when singing seems a bit fem in hand movements and gesters.. but is straight

That's because a country boy can survive.   ;D
(Started T November 4, 2015)
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Nicole Wilson

Haha  word...   but seen this 1st hand in Nashville   but lack of sleep is gtting to me
Quote from: FtMitch on November 30, 2015, 11:50:35 PM
That's because a country boy can survive.   ;D
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darkblade

For me its mostly the way I speak and the pitch of my voice (I almost can't control the tone of whatever comes out of my mouth for some reason).. Besides those two annoying things, I'd say I have mostly masculine-ish mannerisms, which I think is odd because I never really spent time around guys (eg. my mom tried forever to get me to sit with my legs closed, never happened).
I'm trying to be somebody, I'm not trying to be somebody else.
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captains

My voice and my hands. I'm not effeminate in interests, but my personality reads that way because I have an almost-theatrical voice -- I speak quickly, with a lot of dynamic changes in pitch, and as I talk, I gesture wildly. I smile a lot. People really see the female in my face when I do. The thing I hate most about this stage in my transition is how I feel compelled to smile less so that I can read as male. Humor and warmth are not gendered traits. :(
- cameron
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Swayallday

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Tristyn

Quote from: captains on December 01, 2015, 03:30:11 AM
The thing I hate most about this stage in my transition is how I feel compelled to smile less so that I can read as male. Humor and warmth are not gendered traits. :(

That's so sad. Its so sad how society still has the false, controlling belief that men either have little or no emotion at all. That's why alot of times I try to speak with extreme flatness in my voice tonality. But its really tough when I get overly excited (and I do especially around my bro or when things happen that are wonderful and did not expect them to happen).

Quote from: Swayallday on December 01, 2015, 04:01:57 AM
putting my hands in my sides -_-
GIGGLING WHEN DRUNK

But cis guys even do that. In fact, after reading all the replies on this up to this point, including mine, alot of cis men do these things. I think the reason we may feel so uncomfortable about these supposed "female" traits is because these traits are not gender-specific traits but are really stereotypes. Perhaps this is actually internalized sexism, yes?

I sometimes place my hands on my hips either curled or flat, specifically during resting periods in my work outs. I think its because I try to emulate the bulky, huge, tank-sized muscle men engaged on the Body Beast dvds I follow.  The more I intentionally do it though, the less uncomfortable it does make me feel. However, I am still least likely to do this in public though.

I giggle very quietly, alot, even when I am not drunk. Or when I like someone as a friend. Heck, I am not even sure exactly why cis women do this. Its still a mystery to me and probably always will be, since I'm not exactly very good (yet) at being a Ladies' Man-type of guy. :'(
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FtMitch

Quote from: King Phoenix on December 01, 2015, 06:12:09 AM

But cis guys even do that. In fact, after reading all the replies on this up to this point, including mine, alot of cis men do these things. I think the reason we may feel so uncomfortable about these supposed "female" traits is because these traits are not gender-specific traits but are really stereotypes. Perhaps this is actually internalized sexism, yes?

No, I wouldn't think of it as sexism as I think we all acknowledge that this are not bad traits and that plenty of cis males DO have them... But even in cis males they are often seen as effiminate and cis males don't have to worry about passing.  Sure, guys may giggle when they are drunk but they will get crap for it from their friends.  Guys may have inflected voices, but they will get labelled as gay for it.  As trans guys (especially those pre-t or just on T) most of us don't have the luxury of be A-okay with more feminine traits and having any chance of passing as even an effeminate male. So no, I don't think it is sexist for us to try and avoid stereotypes that put another "female" mark on the subconscious score card when people are gendering us.  It's not that they are bad traits, or even that we don't know they are stereotypes.  It's just that they make passing that much harder and when you toss them on top of having a chest and no muscles and a feminine face, you ending up being labelled female almost 100% of the time if you don't work on them simply because they ARE stereotypes and stereotypes are often what people gender you based on, not reality.
(Started T November 4, 2015)
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Kylo

You gotta remember the definition of sexism is the belief that one gender is superior to another. If you're just trying to be read as one or the other, you're not implying any superiority by doing it. We are something of a special case as trans people - we may have a dislike of being perceived a certain gender, or having those gendered body parts, but that doesn't mean we're sexist jerkholes or anything. Our dislike and/or moving away from one gender's mannerisms is a manifestation of the cognitive dissonance we feel which is an honest bodily and mental response to the stressful stimuli of being trans and operating in the world.

It's true that some trans people adopt stereotypical behaviors as they learn all over again how to be the gender they should have been. Some come under fire for that. A common problem is say, how MTFs are often criticized for not acting like feminists, for wearing too much makeup and acting like 1950s housewives. I've seen trans men come under fire for bodybuilding too, and "perpetuating stereotypes". I guess whether that's innocent or not is an argument for another day but I definitely understand how easy it is for one person to pick up the mannerisms, behaviors and accents of another just by hanging around someone else. We mimic each other almost without effort and without trying. It's part of the process to ackowledge that men and women are different in their own ways, and that as trans people we can either start conforming to expectations, feel liberated enough to start acting how its feels natural to act, or just continue being who we are. I'll definitely continue being who I am, but I am bothered by the compensatory "female" behaviors I've picked up as well over time - not because they're female-like, but because they were either beyond my conscious control, or because I was sheepishly seeking acceptance at the time, and was being molded by the desire to be accepted. I couldn't give a ->-bleeped-<- about that now, beyond being accepted enough to be safe. So I don't think it's internalized sexism so much as finding out how we want to present ourselves, what to keep and what to throw away. Nothing wrong with that.

As we transition and are read as a different gender people *will* treat us differently, and we need to be ready for it. In some environments, female-like mannerisms and speech patterns in a male don't go down well as we're all probably aware. A good amount of my "correcting" my behavior is to be read correctly, and to avoid trouble. 

 
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Sebby Michelango

I have some more feminine sides of me. But it's normal. Everybody has some feminine and masculine sides, I guess so. Most of the feminine sides doesn't bother me. But some are a bit annoying. Being sensitive, having high voice and can't control my walking annoys me. I doesn't have masculine or feminine hobbies. I'm at the middle of the three. I thinks drawings is fun and being at Facebook. I hang a lot at YouTube as well.

I have more masculine sides of me too. I do spread my legs, fart loud, come with dirty jokes and teasing the girls (even I'm attracted to guys). Dirty jokes are very funny. I treat the girls in my class as girls, but they doesn't treat me as a guy, even I act like the other guys in my class. That's sucks. xD So I guess we all are both feminine and masculine.
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Kylo

^ of course. There's no such thing as 100% masculine or feminine behavior - human males and females are still more similar than they are different biologically. But the sexual dimorphism in humans is still massive compared to some animal species. Look at a pair of seagulls and see if you can tell which one is the male and which the female. Their abilities and appearance are practically equal apart from the laying of eggs. I'm sure seagulls know how to tell, but we don't without some kind of test. When it comes to humans though we can often pick out from hundreds of meters away whether someone walking towards us is likely to be male or female due to dress, height, clothing color, way of walking, hair length, etc. And that's just the superficial things. You can tell in less than a second if you're talking to a male or a female on the phone just by the voice pitch. Then there's the faces and the bodies...

It would be nice if behavior wasn't so "gendered", but it is, by just about all societies. If you decide to retain the opposite sex's mannerisms but take on a new gender identity, it's not so much any moral or factual considerations that will go against you, but just the sheer force of the social flow and expectation. Fair play to anybody who wants to go against that, but, I expect they will encounter issues and problems frequently when dealing with other people. For a lot of trans people, transition seems to be a process where you reduce the friction of that social flow by conforming in a different way to a different role - more suitable for you. But you still end up having to conform to another role.

As a general non-conformist, it's gonna be interesting seeing just how often I feel the pressure to conform when society starts seeing a man and not a woman in me. 
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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FtMitch

And the funny thing is, the older I get the less the idea of "conforming" bothers me, because I care less and less what people think and whether or not my life fits into their political or sociological ideals.  When I hear trans guys get knocked down for perpetuating stereotypes by doing things like bodybuilding, it just makes me roll my eyes.  Heck, maybe they just LIKE bodybuilding.  Just because a lot of people do it doesn't make it wrong to do. 

Most of my co-workers style clothes online part time and are otherwise Stay At Home Moms (SAHMs they call themselves).  Years ago, during my semi-radical feminist days, I would have looked down on these women simply because their interests and values are 1) different from mine and 2) follow a feminine stereotype.  But now I realize that these ladies simply enjoy being mothers who stay at home with their children and that there is nothing wrong with that--as long as it is what they WANT and a choice that they made themselves.  Feminism and the breaking down of gender roles in general is a great thing, but it shouldn't be taken so far in the opposite direction that people are looked down upon by more "enlightened" folks because they enjoy things that are stereotypical to their gender.  So bodybuilding and looking like a muscle man is a male stereotype.  So what?  The fact is that I find muscular men incredibly hot and that is the ONLY reason I want to look like that.  It has nothing to do with wanting to fit into a stereotype and everything to do with wanting to look the way I personally find attractive.  If I found lanky, thin guys super attractive then I would probably want to look like that even though it is not the classic stereotype.  Same thing for women.  If women want to wear makeup and pink sparkly dresses and tiaras, I say "you go, girl."  So it's a stereotype.  So what?  As long as it is their choice and no one is saying to them "well you're a girl, so you need to wear makeup and dresses and love tiaras," then let them dress as they please. 

Yeah, I wanna fit a male stereotype, but it's because I like the concept of the stereotypical male, not because I feel like society is shaking its non-coporeal finger at me and telling me I must be that way.  I didn't LIKE being a girl, I don't LIKE having feminine traits, and it has nothing to do with not liking women.  Women are awesome.  I am a huge freaking feminist.  But part of being a feminist (and someone who is pro free gender expression) is accepting that if people are allowed to break gender stereotypes, then they should be allowed to conform to them, too, if that is what makes them happy.  I first learned this lesson in my Muslim Women's Studies class in college when I became friends with a classmate who wore a hijab (a head covering).  Actually, she wore the full outfit, glad in black from head to toe with only her face showing.  Before taking that class I had been 100% against women wearing a hijab.  But after actually talking to Muslim women I realized that by demanding that they NOT wear a head covering I was taking on the same roll as the men who said they MUST wear it, just from the opposite side of the issue.  I wasn't taking into account their feelings or personal beliefs.  Instead I had decided that *I* knew what was best for them, and it should be my way or the highway.  But after I became friends with Muslim women, I realized that my supposedly feminist stance was actually ANTI-feminist, because I was speaking for those women instead of fighting for them to have a voice and the freedom to make their own decisions.  (Their own decision, btw, was to wear a hijab.  The women in my classes were not being forced by anyone; it was simply a part of their personal religious beliefs.) 

TL;DR Version: Anyway, the point of all that was just to say that I  agree that it isn't fair to judge people for being too "stereotypical" male or female.  Not everybody WANTS to be a goth guy who wears eyeliner and paints his nails and says "screw you" to gender stereotypes.  Some guys want to be big macho jock types and that's okay as long as it is their decision and not pressure they feel from society.  And I HATE it when people claim that subconsciously everybody feels pressured to fit the stereotypes as a way to invalidate somebody who wants to bulk up and lift weights or whatever.  Um... no... Some people are just jock types.  They exist on their own and there's nothing any more wrong with that than with being an artsy type.  In fact, lately I've seen jock types FTMs get attacked more on the Net than FTMs with more feminine traits, mostly by the same young people who complain about how AWFUL those girls at their school who like BOYS and ONE DIRECTION and SHOPPING are--don't they know that they should be reading books and playing video games like the magically enlightened people?  *chuckles*  Ah, the joys of the internet.
(Started T November 4, 2015)
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AlexanderMiles

I've been on T for almost 2 years now, but socially, I'm still barely there. What I hate about the mannerisms I've still got from my female years are that I take offense easily to guys just joking around with me about things. Cis guys can be really rude about things, but maybe I'm just sensitive about my self-esteem still. I also notice that I don't fit in, and while that really doesn't bother me, it still can get on my nerves. I refuse to change myself in order to be more conformed, but I also hate being misgendered for how I hold myself. It's a catch-22.
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