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About to sign up w/ Spiegel, but still find myself questioning... halp?

Started by LadyDrifterLana, December 08, 2015, 05:32:17 PM

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BellaSwan

I've heard it's preferable to do both at he same time and I've heard it's it necessary- never have I heard it's preferable to do them separately
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LadyDrifterLana

Wow, yeah I definitely want to get my nose done at the same time then.

I'm about to schedule. I considered (and contacted the office of) DeSchamps-Braly, but I am fairly confident I could not travel to SF from NY and also afford forehead/rhinoplasty/mandible if that is basically taking up my entire budget to drive to Boston for Spiegel. Right?
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BellaSwan

Honestly, I wouldn't go with DB if he was far out if my budget! You always need to be prepared for what ifs with surgery!
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LadyDrifterLana

Yeah Bella, I don't know exactly what the price difference would be, but I have a friend who got a consult with DB for $50k. Now, she needs some more soft tissue work than I do, and her consult with Spiegel was somewhat less than DB. Spiegel for me was still right up around $40k (forehead, mandible, rhino, cheeks, trach) so I can't see DB being affordable.

However obviously I can only afford to do the forehead/rhino/mandible (~$30k). This is driving to Boston. Flying to SF and lodging would really eat up $$.

The office of DB told me that with travel and stuff that my cost would almost certainly come out higher. If it was -marginally- higher, I might be able to pay the extra to justify the specialties of DB and Dr. O together. I'm pretty maxed out though.
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LadyDrifterLana

If someone like Dr. Van Der Dussen was affordable including travel, and had better qualifications, I could maybe do that. I hear procedures outside the US are less expensive, however, how is Belgium? It would be hard to convince parents to fly out of the country (and spend money outside the US for liability worries etc).

DeSchamps-Braly seems like he would be ideal and I have a friend in SF. I don't know if I even like his aesthetic though - Not enough information available. I've seen only little thumbnails. I am sure Dr. O and DB are great though.

I thought Spiegel was a craniofacial surgeon before I started this. I don't know why. When I started researching this a month ago I was looking at Dr. Z as well. Now I see there are very big differences in these surgeons.
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Charlotte_W

For reference in Europe for type 3 forehead, rhinoplasty, jaw contouring, genioplasty and trachea shave with Facial Team in Spain you are looking at around $25k going on the current exchange rate.
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Lagertha

Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 12, 2015, 12:13:31 PM
If someone like Dr. Van Der Dussen was affordable including travel, and had better qualifications, I could maybe do that. I hear procedures outside the US are less expensive, however, how is Belgium? It would be hard to convince parents to fly out of the country (and spend money outside the US for liability worries etc).

Flight tickets can be expensive if you dont take time to reseach.. Your can find return flight tickets from Europe to US and back to Europe for as little as $300... Even if you dont find one of those deals in your timeline, there are tickets regularly available at around $400 to east coast and up to $600-700 to west coast. I think the flight from US, are likely to be little more expensive.. you are looking at like $250-300 more expensive return ticket. So its not that big of deal either.

Im not exactly shure what do you mean as liability worries... Most of these top FFS surgeons are very reliable and experienced, and stand behind their work. They cant afford making a mistake and not taking responsibility for it, with how it is today with internet. 


Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 12, 2015, 12:13:31 PM
I thought Spiegel was a craniofacial surgeon before I started this. I don't know why. When I started researching this a month ago I was looking at Dr. Z as well. Now I see there are very big differences in these surgeons.

Spiegel is  ENT doctor certified in Otolaryngology.. he is not certified plastic surgeon (let alone craniofacial)

For my surgery, and for the result I wanted, I only really considered craniofacial surgeons. As far as I know there are only a few in FFS business: dr. Di Maggio, dr. Ousterhout, dr. Deschamps Braly and dr. Van der Dussen. There are others who had some training in maxillofacial surgery which would include some aspects of craniofacial surgery, but its not nearly the same as those who are real craniofacial surgeons.
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JaniceNL

Isn't van de Ven in that list aswell? I contacted van der Dussen and requested a quote, he is a little more expensive than the surgeon I am going with but that isn't the main issue I have. I can't find any before and after of his work or  anyone who has had surgery with him...
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Lagertha

Dr. Bart van de Ven is dental surgeon (dentist). He is specialized in oral and maxillofacial surgery (so practically the same as Facial team surgeons)...

edit: Im looking now at his website.. apparently he later also studied medicine.
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LadyDrifterLana

Quote from: Lagertha on December 12, 2015, 01:12:25 PM
Flight tickets can be expensive if you dont take time to reseach.. Your can find return flight tickets from Europe to US and back to Europe for as little as $300... Even if you dont find one of those deals in your timeline, there are tickets regularly available at around $400 to east coast and up to $600-700 to west coast. I think the flight from US, are likely to be little more expensive.. you are looking at like $250-300 more expensive return ticket. So its not that big of deal either.

Good info, thank you!

QuoteIm not exactly shure what do you mean as liability worries... Most of these top FFS surgeons are very reliable and experienced, and stand behind their work. They cant afford making a mistake and not taking responsibility for it, with how it is today with internet. 

I am sure that any of the top surgeons should do a good job, I'm not really worried about that. I know reputation is everything for their business. My parents are concerned with traveling overseas or to latin america and the perceived dangers/stress of international travel associated. They will be concerned with liability too, they always are looking out

Quote
Spiegel is  ENT doctor certified in Otolaryngology.. he is not certified plastic surgeon (let alone craniofacial)

this does worry me a bit
Quote
For my surgery, and for the result I wanted, I only really considered craniofacial surgeons. As far as I know there are only a few in FFS business: dr. Di Maggio, dr. Ousterhout, dr. Deschamps Braly and dr. Van der Dussen. There are others who had some training in maxillofacial surgery which would include some aspects of craniofacial surgery, but its not nearly the same as those who are real craniofacial surgeons.

I'm really liking DeSchamps-Braly... Trying to compare him with S is hard when I don't know what I can afford at his office.  Who knows what the difference will really be...? What if S gets me to 90% of what Dr. O/DB team would do? Will I even know the difference? What if DB just doing forehead/mandible would be better than full FFS by S? No matter who does my surgery I'm sure it could always be better. I dunno how choosy I can be.
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Lagertha

In the end all of these surgeons are very experienced in facial feminization, dr. Spiegel, dr. Bart van de Ven, Facial team... And have results to proved their worth. It depends on what you personally want, and choosing surgeon who will be able to deliver the change and result that you want. I can only speak from my personal experience, and I can only speak for myself. I practically didnt have visable brow bossing, and my forehead was flat with feminine almost 90° angle. What I wanted was what none of these surgeons would be able to deliver-> based on their style of foreheads, their own aesthetics, and lastly their lack of broad craniofacial surgical skills. I didnt want slight removal od uneven bossing, and making everything smooth. I wanted a set-back as far as it could be and still work in balance with the rest of face. Therefore I needed set-back of whole lower third of forehead, and set-back of central part of middle and partially higher forehead area. The result is my lower forehead is positioned slightly more backwards in comparison with middle forehead, which gives it that ultra feminine curved look which I specifically wanted, because it goes ideally with the rest of my face.
I cannot tell other people what they need to want for their result. Its responsibility of each patient to do their homework and find out what will work ideally for them. Or some might want to avoid that and leave all such details for the surgeon and let him make all the choices. For what some people need, it just might be ideal what dr. Spiegel or dr. Bart or Facial team can do for them. We have all different face, and different challenge to achieve desired result. We dont all need true craniofacial surgeon to achieve our desired result. If someone looks for more or less only removal of brow bossing and smoothing of the forehead into a nice flat shape, all of these surgeons are more than enough experienced and competent to achieve that. There is a slight risk where something goes badly wrong, and they dont have the expert knowledge and skills to fix it and at the same time still deliver ideal result.. but the risk is rather small, because they generally stick to what they know they can do safely.


I travelled to Argentina.. and Im crazy scared of flights... and half of my parents were really against the idea of risking going to other side of the world (the other half went with me). On the other hand I knew exactly which surgeon I want... and turns out Buenos Aires is really nice city, with beautiful and kind people everywhere we went. I didnt really went there to experience everything about the city.. I went to have a surgery, and I spent most of the time in apartment anyway :)


I saw quite many results from dr. Ousterhout over the years.. I didnt see many results from Deschamps-Braly.. So I sadly cant point you directly where to look. I can only suggest you to have a consultation (which is quite pricy) during which Im shure he will be more than willing to show you more than enough results. All of these surgeons can show you their best results during in-person consultation. Most of best results are not likely to allow them to share their pictures on websites...
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LadyDrifterLana

Wow, Lagertha, thank you for that informative post. I really need to take some time to consider what I want.

I made this a while back while looking around on surgeon's websites: http://imgur.com/28CaZGf

I have no idea if that is an accurate depiction of what a doctor could do, and if so, who. I tried to change it in the way I thought Dr. S would, but I did not know nearly what I know now. I figured the end result would be better. Now I'm thinking it's really far off and I could look a lot different for better or worse. Now I'm thinking I really don't know who will give me what I want. We all want the "best result"... but what does that mean for me?

I should probably get photos/consult from virtualffs before I commit to this stuff.
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Charlotte_W

I don't think it is an unrealistic mockup, but I'd expect with Virtual FFS she'll raise the eyebrows a bit. My results are very similar, though my brow was probably stronger before - http://imgur.com/vLEjrLC (please excuse the fact these are taken with no makeup)
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LadyDrifterLana

Charlotte thank you for sharing those images! I was thinking the same about the eyebrows. So do you have a more vertical/flat or round forehead? I want to say more flat. Did you say you went to Facial Team? I think you look 100% female and rather pretty. What a dramatic difference. Are you happy with your result?
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Lagertha

Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 12, 2015, 02:47:32 PM
Now I'm thinking I really don't know who will give me what I want. We all want the "best result"... but what does that mean for me?

I should probably get photos/consult from virtualffs before I commit to this stuff.

You shouldn't rush,.. this is important decision to make, and you should take your time, compare results of different surgeons and build your own opinion. And then make a decision.
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SamSparks

Quote from: Lagertha on December 12, 2015, 01:32:27 PM
Dr. Bart van de Ven is dental surgeon (dentist). He is specialized in oral and maxillofacial surgery (so practically the same as Facial team surgeons)...

edit: Im looking now at his website.. apparently he later also studied medicine.

All the "dentists" (oral surgeons) who are doing FFS right now would have also studied medicine.  Their are many dual programs where dental students who graduate dental school go, do med school in 2-3 years, then start surgical training with both the dental and medical background.  Its just a different pathway to get to the same place that a lot of surgeons arrive at.

For example, Dr. O did it this way. 

Its actually not a bad background to come from to learn bone surgeries... I would much rather have a maxillofacial surgeon (DDS/MD) do bone work on me than a plastic surgeon (MD) simply because they would have more experience with bone graphs, and jaw and maxilla bone surgeries, than a plastic surgeon who primarily learns about soft tissue manipulation.  Craniofacial surgeons go through more training and can do more though, you are right about that.

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SamSparks

Quote from: Charlotte_W on December 12, 2015, 03:12:14 PM
I don't think it is an unrealistic mockup, but I'd expect with Virtual FFS she'll raise the eyebrows a bit. My results are very similar, though my brow was probably stronger before - http://imgur.com/vLEjrLC (please excuse the fact these are taken with no makeup)

Wow thanks for sharing.  You went to argentina correct?  Interesting to see your result compared to Lagertha's description.  For yours for example, is more of a flat profile rather than slightly concave (lower portion with respect to middle portion) which is what Lagertha described hers as.. yet I think its more right for your face.  Also your jaw is much improved.  Nice nose result as well.  The vertical chin reduction really helped bring your face into more of an oval rather than rectangle like pre-hrt.  Also pretty hair :p.

Thanks for sharing.
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Lagertha

I think she went to Facial team. And I agree, I think she is a fantastic example where their forehead "approach" (for the lack of better word) not only worked good enough, but was in fact exactly ideal for what she needed, and is perfectly balanced with the rest of her face.

Btw... I think you had a really good facial change from hormones in only 12 months. Quite amazing to see!
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Charlotte_W

Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 12, 2015, 03:52:50 PM
Charlotte thank you for sharing those images! I was thinking the same about the eyebrows. So do you have a more vertical/flat or round forehead? I want to say more flat. Did you say you went to Facial Team? I think you look 100% female and rather pretty. What a dramatic difference. Are you happy with your result?

Yeah, it was Facial Team. The forehead is definitely flat and going on your photos I would think an approach like this would work well on you. I'm personally very happy with my results so far - I'm only just over 3 months into recovery and they say it can be up to 12 months to see the full results, but I'd guess I'm at least 90% there now.


Quote from: SamSparks on December 12, 2015, 05:45:48 PM
Also your jaw is much improved.  Nice nose result as well.  The vertical chin reduction really helped bring your face into more of an oval rather than rectangle like pre-hrt.  Also pretty hair :p.

Thank you! With regards to the nose result, Facial Team have a dedicated surgeon who specialises in rhinoplasty alongside their two main surgeons.


Quote from: Lagertha on December 12, 2015, 06:00:40 PM
Btw... I think you had a really good facial change from hormones in only 12 months. Quite amazing to see!

My face did definitely soften in those twelve months. I think on VirtualFFS she describes what is known as a "muscle moustache" and that really decreased. It's difficult to tell though how much HRT played a part and how much was deliberate weight gain. By the way I should add that I didn't used to look that intense all the time ;-)
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deeiche

Quote from: Charlotte_W on December 12, 2015, 03:12:14 PM
SNIP
(please excuse the fact these are taken with no makeup)
thanks for providing the pictures, you don't need to apologize re: no makeup.  I think this is the only way to show before and after, makeup can cloud things.
"It's only money, not life or death"
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