Is God A Myth?

[Ricki]

Hmmm my reply, course I'm quite chatty so i do not want to write a book here...
examples first:
On a recent hiking trip there was an image left on my digital camera (basically a person or somthign human like standing there) in a rock path i had just walked through.  I discovered the image later the following week.  Scared, weirded out, etc.  Although i choose to believe it is one of my guardian angels, ironically i believe while hikng i was reaching out to my angels in emotional voice in my head during that specific area of hiking.  One instance I have dozens.  My personal trauma or "attempt" was quite savage (shooting) and i was self determined to not be around, guess what?  1999 was a long time ago it seems?  The doctors all said milimeters this way and that but all professed without deeming divine intervention that in all certainty i should had died fairly immediatly.  No real reasons why i didn't or survive to regain almost 100% health back either?
I once maybe a year prior to that layed on my bed with a gun to my head in a terrible slump and as i was laying there i thought why not now?? I cocked the slide back placed the gun to my temple, and in races my boxer from another room of the house literally (I mean she did this exactly) jumped on me and basically pushed her head up to my face putting her head in between me and the gun!  I cried that night i remember and i have not really cried much through all these years of struggle.
So after some harsher examples I say this:
I believe in a god and a kingdom / and or some sort of next life reincarnation.
I was raised protestant but do not practice or worship in a church i worship with God in my own way that does not require me to attend a church or formal get together or "worship" primarily due to the fact that regardless of good intentions the people in my community/church would not openly and objectively accept me for who i am or what i am.  I remember one of the last outreaches i had in 1999 prior to trying suicide I sat and visited with a priest well two actually (i think in the same week) and they both condemned what i was planning and said God would condemn me (now here's me thinking sorry father but it seems I'm already condemned in this life does it not?-that was my logic not his) anyway they condemned the thought or purpose of my actions and had no answer or resolution to my issues.  so much for putting stock into that specific arena!
I pray a lot almost everyday praying i mean talking i ask God or my god for many things have little to offer not much to go forward with but somehow he's managed to carry me this far somehow???
My angels i believe are paramount in this.  Months after my accident i was back to work, travelling as a manager / trainer and i woke one night in a hotel room to see this thing (human like) sitting on my dresser / croaching or perching somehow but it was human like.. I was scared i fled under my covers and did not sruface until daylight!  that was and is my angel michael.. sounds a little far fetched but there that is about my angels, I've grown to know two more in my life by name!  I pray and ask them of things as plainly as i'd talk to another person in life with them i can shed deeper thoughts and such!
Why do i believe, well i used to use a lot of the older logic "why not believe" what if there was or is a judgement day or book of life he reads from?  ooops then he (God) would know in my heart by judging me i was a fake and i would be cast down anyway?  ears of stumbling around denying some religion and stuff.  I think i have found some peace religiously:  I think God in all his wisdom and perfection created a world he could own, one that grew of its own and really one he could not ultimately completely control in all aspects.  Sort of like growing a tomato plant you plant the seed, water it, expose it to all the right things but the plant will take on its own life regardless.  Well the world and the people in it has certainly taken on their own lives have they not???
Pitty us when God does recall his planet and cerations and what we as people have done!  so anyway that in my thinking somehow explains why things happen and do not always happen whey there are miracles and senseless deaths...Wars and killing, and babies dying, and bad people becoming great, leaders, icons, poor people left deserving...  I think maybe in this life mine is what mine is in the next or what i pray for a peaceful end to my plight there will just be peace and rest no internal turmoil. 
I think anyone gender wise will agree with the everyday haunting of the feeling of just not being right or whole.  this is a terrible terrible prison and scar to have on ones inside.  I ask God all the time have not recieved my answer of as yet i challenge him but do not demand of him. 
I guess in a short booklet of writing this is what and why i believe!
Ricki

[Tiffany2]

  I don't wish to appear gross, arogant or holier-than thou but I have found that unlike what we would prefer it is pain that brings forth life.

  When my female friends and relatives traivailed with labor pains life came forth. It was in their agony that another child came into the world.

  When soldiers overseas gave their lives and their bodies were ripped apart by shrapnel or whatever and those who survived came home minus limbs it is a constant reminder to me that their pain and loss of life has given me another day to live and the freedom to worship my Lord.

  When our Lord hung on that cross he was beaten beyond recognition and fulfilled the very law that some use to condemn us. That love that he had was an example to me. In giving his life he gave me life.

  I can see the examples in women suffering in childbirth and soldiers that have been maimed and died.

  I guess I would rather use the word of God that I see fulfilled around me with modern examples to try to help others believe. Being transgender is hell at times. We all know that. But at least we can see what our Lord went through for us and cherish his love knowing we have faults that others condemn as they take being straight for granted.

  When I look into the old testament I see prophets and great men and women of God that suffered reproach from all around them. They were slaves, afflicted and destitute.

  In the first chapter of Daniel we see it was the master of the eunuchs that kept Daniel. Not exactly a good place for a straight man. I sometimes wondered if he was straight with desires towards females how he suffered being castrated?  And then he was the one that was thrown in the lion's den later.

  Dear Jeremiah was in the court of the prison and when he spoke the word of God was taken from the court and thrown into the dungeon in the mire. He was near dead when he was pulled out.

  The list could go on but I do believe that many that suffered greatly did so to fulfil types and shadows of our Lord as well as to fulfil a testament. It was their pain and suffering that brought forth the Christ of God that would suffer to give us eternal life.

  Many may have it too good and too easy in this life. They may sit in church and take salvation for granted and look down their noses at people like us. One day they may very well regret having had it so good. It was the rich man that went to hell while Lazurus went to Abraham's bosom.

  As for me; I find being transgender a blessing. I know I need our precious Lord's mercy. I know I can never be good enough on my own. Those facts stare back at me from the mirror every day. Those facts are in some of the clothing I wear and in the thoughts I have. I can't forget that I will never be saved by my own merits or take the breaking of our Lord's body for granted.

  He was my example. He said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." He could have just called for the angels to take him home.

  Since he loved us enough to go through what he did and pray for us who am I to harden my heart because I'm transgender? I just hope that others can see the hope laid up in heaven for those afflicted in this life. It was the poor that heard him gladly and the common people.

  May God bless you.

  Tiffany

[anustacey]

is god a myth. now thats a good question for myself the answer is yes god does. for many years i have followed the teachings of the good red road and it has truly been a wonderful experience. from holding a wood chip in my hands that was glowing with all the colors of a bright summers day to being able to raise my pipe in a sacred way for the people around me, god has truly blessed my life. though this is part of the answer that i have found for myself. in the searching that i have done over the years, i have found that god is different to everyone and that it is up to each of us to find that place with in ourselves that god has inscribed gods name.                      stacey ann

[sheila18]

aho mitakuye oyashin

[anustacey]

aho mitakuye oyashin and namaste

[RebeccaFog]

I think I finally figured out what I wanted to say;

God is not a myth.
God is a part of me.
when I denied god, I denied myself.
During that time, my life was empty except for a grotesque & agonizing pain.
When I accepted myself, I accepted god.
my life is full, rich, and very curious now.
God and I are as one.

Amen


P.S.
   If you deny God then you deny me. I guess this is your right, but it may hurt my feelings.

[Teri Anne]

Well, it's been a long time since I checked into this post.  I'm amazed that there have been over 9000 reads.  Wow. 

I was just wondering if anyone had read the two recent New York Times best sellers:

(Prices per Amazon.com)
   
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins (Hardcover - Sep 18, 2006)
Buy new:  $27.00 $14.85   Used & new from $12.85
Get it by Tuesday, December 5, if you order in the next 38 minutes.
Other Editions: Audio Download

Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris (Hardcover - Sep 19, 2006)
Buy new:  $16.95 $9.32   Used & new from $7.99
Get it by Tuesday, December 5, if you order in the next 38 minutes.
Other Editions: Audio CD

I'm still not really sold either way but I found them both interesting.  Through reading the specifics of the Bible (as related in these two books), I am even more upset at how cruel, murderous and bigoted some of the Bible (especially the Old Testament) authors and stories were.  I could not, as an example, imagine that, if a new bride is found by her new husband to not be a virgin, she should be killed in front of her father.  This is the type of thing that people have said the Koran had in it...and now, I find, the Bible's Old Testament does also?  Such cruel passages should be eliminated or, at least, specifically disavowed by ALL organized religions.  To me, it's like the Pope apologizing for not speaking out against Hitler's Nazi Germany -- A good act.  Now, draw lines through all the stuff you, as a religious authority, feel are cruel and not what your religion is about.  Someone once said that religion is good for good people and bad for bad people.  There are stories in the Bible that can be used by either side to prove arguments.  That's not a good concept.

It's also worrisome that there are over 5000 DIFFERENT OLD WRITTEN versions that have been discovered of the New Testament -- apparently, monks and copyists did not always copy the New Testament correctly.  It makes me recall the coal mine accident in the USA last year where 7 men were trapped in a collapsed mine.  A mine official thought that he heard something like "all 7 are alive."  It lead people of that community to celebrate that the miners were safe...until it was discovered that someone had mis-heard and only one miner was alive, barely.  It's these kinds of occurences in MY LIFE that make me ponder how much something written many many centuries ago could be correct and relied upon.

Both books also discuss that children should not be referred to as "Christian children" or "Muslim children."  Anyone under the age of about nine really does not have the life experience to make such a very important judgement as to which religion they should belong to.  Children should be referred to as "children of Christian parents" or "children of Muslim parents," not "Christian children" or "Muslim children."  The books also point out that what you believe is dependent on WHERE you are born.  If you are born in Greece in ancient times, you believe in Zeus.  If you grew up in ancient Viking times, you'll probably believe in Thor.  If you are born in certain parts of Asia, you'll most likely be Hindu, Budhist or, these days, Muslim.  If you are born in a certain part of Africa, you might believe that Chu Chu of the Mountain is your God. 

With the threat of living in Eternal Hell after death, Christians sometimes ask, "What if you're wrong about your religion?"  They can't imagine that a Muslim or Jew would find it equally incomprehensible to change religions.  One of the authors asks, "What if the REAL answer is that Chu Chu of the Mountain is God?" 

There was a "South Park" (cartoon) episode a few years ago wherein various denominations of Christians were complaining to the Devil about ending up in Hell:  "Hey, wait a second!  I'm Baptist.  And, I'm Episcopal.  We shouldn't be here!"  The Devil's assistant responds, "Oh, I'm sorry.  The correct answer was 'Mormon.'  Yes, Mormon."  Though I envy that people are able to choose the CORRECT religion, I'm afraid that I've always been a suspicious show-me-the-definitive-proof kind of person.  While the proof that exists undeniably works for most people, I just haven't found the right stuff to make me choose a specific religion.  And, too often mixed in with the written things, there is too much bad stuff -- things that we're supposed to selectively ignore, I'm told by some religious folk.

I still feel that, even without definite proof, the intelligent design concept leads me to believe that there is some type of higher power out there. Both authors knock the intelligent design thing as being unscientific and an emotional choice.  Well, I guess that, like love (something else that can't be proven), I'll just have to admit that, emotionally, the intricate beauty of things in nature sway me.  I realize that IT'S LOGICAL that it's taken at least 56 million years to get here via evolution and that Darwin says things in nature get better and more perfect via time.  Time, even milleniums, don't cut it for me.  Things, especially the human body, are TOO beautiful and complex.

Call me silly, but that's my argument -- for.

Teri Anne

[Tiffany Elise]

  I personally believe what 2 Corinthians 5:7 says. For we walk by faith, not by sight.
  If I had to see God to belive in God I wouldn't have faith. And that is what pleases God.
  Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
  But that's just my opinion.
  Tiff

[Joseph]

Hi Teri Anne, 

  sigh... lol.  I'm laughing at myself because discussing religion (or politics) is one of those things where you can go round and round forever with someone, both be blue in the face, and not have reached any sort of resolution.  Especially on an impersonal forum such as this when you don't really "know" someone.  It's sad that I know better and I still choose to reply. heh.

Unfortunately, I haven't read those two books, though I've heard of them; I have about 10 books on my reading list right now as it is. =P  However, I can still comment on Christianity.  Unfortunately I'm providing short replies on topics where whole books have been written.  But my purpose isn't to provide complete answers, only to note that to understand a worldview you have to understand the foundation of it, i.e. come to a good starting point.  If you don't, you have no hope of understanding why people embrace it. (And note, I'm not using "you" to mean you specifically, it's the general "you".)

Through reading the specifics of the Bible (as related in these two books), I am even more upset at how cruel, murderous and bigoted some of the Bible (especially the Old Testament) authors and stories were.  I could not, as an example, imagine that, if a new bride is found by her new husband to not be a virgin, she should be killed in front of her father.  This is the type of thing that people have said the Koran had in it...and now, I find, the Bible's Old Testament does also?  Such cruel passages should be eliminated or, at least, specifically disavowed by ALL organized religions. 

Many people think humanity is great.  We're decent creatures and there's a lot of good in us.  There may be some bad apples, but you try to do all the nice things you "learned in kindergarten" and you'll be on Santa's "good" list.  If you try to interpret Christianity from that framework, you won't get very far.  If God is as holy and glorious as the Bible describes, and we have committed the infinitely heinous crime of valuing/choosing something else over God, we are terrible criminals deserving infinite punishment.  The amount of explanation and thought that can go into that previous sentence isn't worth trying to type out here.  Suffice to say that good behavior doesn't get us a shorter sentence.  See, we humans tend to judge ourselves by comparing ourselves to others. Sure, I may be "more decent" and have more kudos points than Hitler, but if I'm a 9 and he's a 2, math class still teaches that all finite numbers approach zero as you approach infinity.  God says to "be holy as I am holy," and we don't have enough kudos points to meet that standard of perfection. The message the Bible is trying to convey is that God is infinitely glorious and our purpose is to glorify Him by enjoying His riches forever, but we chose something else instead, "falling short" of His glory.  Unfortunately God is also the holy and righteous judge, who can't leave crimes unpunished and there's no jail sentence long enough to "make things right."  We deserve the death penalty.  Hence our need for a savior.

At this point, I'm sure many will say something like, "well, I choose to see the good in people, thank you very much."  Fine.  So does God.  But you wouldn't excuse a mass murderer because he's a pleasant bridge player.  What I've said may grate on people's sensibilities about human nature, but if it does, it illustrates why we can't have a coherent conversation about Christianity, and why I had to laugh at myself when I started this post.

Anyhow, on to what you wrote.  The old testament, by the way, is the law that brought death.  It was meant to help illustrate why we need a savior.  Because we're not able to keep it.  Against the backdrop of our offenses against God, all the terrible things described in the old testament are like the tickling of a leaf compared to the lashes of a whip.  However, I have to agree with C.S. Lewis here, who said something to the effect of "do I understand this theologically? Yes.  But emotionally it's still a heart-wrenching thing to accept."  I feel similarly towards the thought of hell.  But if you can imagine our justice system putting a family member in jail for murdering someone, it's the same feeling - somber regret, but acknowledgment that the justice system was not wrong in doing so.

It's also worrisome that there are over 5000 DIFFERENT OLD WRITTEN versions that have been discovered of the New Testament -- apparently, monks and copyists did not always copy the New Testament correctly.]

Well, when you say it like that it sounds worrisome.  But you should also point out that the largest number of variants are errors in spelling and make no difference to the meaning of the text.  The second largest group of variants are variations in word order which also make no difference in meaning.  Also, the ~5,400 Greek manuscripts were not 5,400 versions of Matthew through Revelation.  Some of these manuscripts were only a few verses or chapters.  Ok, you got me typing out of a book now... but I like this quote by Frederic Kenyon - "No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading...It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain... especially with the New Testament.  The number of manuscripts.... of early translations from it, and of quotations from it in the oldest writers of the Church, is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or other of these.... This can be said of no other book in the world."  I won't go into all the statistics, but it's often shared that the NT has a huge number of ancient copies with relatively few lines in doubt - 24,000 manuscripts, counting very early translations, with only 40 lines that are in doubt (i.e. ambiguous), as opposed to, say, the second in line as far as ancient texts go, Homer's Iliad, which has 600+ ancient copies and 700+ lines in doubt.

Children should be referred to as "children of Christian parents" or "children of Muslim parents," not "Christian children" or "Muslim children."  The books also point out that what you believe is dependent on WHERE you are born. 

Children with true faith aside, personally I don't consider this a stumbling block.  Another point where we probably clash is this notion that you can't control where you are born and it's all random.  But Christianity espouses a sovereign God who is in control of, among other things, the time and place of your birth.  This is not the time to get into a free will vs. predestination discussion, but there's this notion in Christianity that God is in control, and yet humans are still responsible for their decisions.  It's something we can't understand because we are within time whereas God is outside time.  It's like a 2-dimensional person trying to understand something in 3 dimensions.  A reading of Romans 9, among other passages, emphasizes that God has indeed prepared some vessels for glory and some for destruction.  Some highlight his mercy while others highlight his justice.  Again, the theology vs. emotion thing kicks in here.

With the threat of living in Eternal Hell after death, Christians sometimes ask, "What if you're wrong about your religion?"  They can't imagine that a Muslim or Jew would find it equally incomprehensible to change religions.  One of the authors asks, "What if the REAL answer is that Chu Chu of the Mountain is God?" 
...
And, too often mixed in with the written things, there is too much bad stuff -- things that we're supposed to selectively ignore, I'm told by some religious folk.

Well, just from a "one of these things is not like the other" standpoint, the thing that sets Christianity apart from other religions is this notion that you can't work your way to heaven.  It's one of the reasons why I think if any religion is the right one, it's this one.  (And as you can probably tell, I don't think you're supposed to selectively ignore the parts you don't like.) If there is such a thing as an incomprehensibly awesome being (to paraphrase Dawkins from his latest appearance in Time magazine) out there, there's nothing I can do to deserve its fellowship, and if I have offended it, there's nothing I can do to make it up to it.  The need for God to intervene, i.e. a savior, comes up again.  Christianity isn't a prescription of how to be moral enough so that you get presents from some cosmic Santa, it's telling you that you're in a burning building and God is there to catch you if only you will trust him enough to jump out the window.  The reason why I am a Christian is similar to the reason I buy insurance.  I know I'm not perfect enough to avoid causing a wreck and end up in a hole of debt that I can't pull myself out of.  I recognize my imperfection as a reality, and fortunately our government gives us a way to avoid paying thousands when we crash our cars.  So I'm going to take it.

I still feel that, even without definite proof, the intelligent design concept leads me to believe that there is some type of higher power out there. Both authors knock the intelligent design thing as being unscientific and an emotional choice.  Well, I guess that, like love (something else that can't be proven), I'll just have to admit that, emotionally, the intricate beauty of things in nature sway me.  I realize that IT'S LOGICAL that it's taken at least 56 million years to get here via evolution and that Darwin says things in nature get better and more perfect via time.  Time, even milleniums, don't cut it for me.  Things, especially the human body, are TOO beautiful and complex.

Call me silly, but that's my argument -- for.

Teri Anne

You're not silly.  Glimpses of true beauty are awe-inspiring... they sometimes bring me to tears.  And in my worldview, they're only a hint of what is to come.

Joseph

[Kimberly]

Nice to see you Teri Anne!


_{P.s. ignore the religions and find your truth anyway, thinks I.}

[DawnL]

Headline on Drudge this morning:

Follow God or vanish, Ahmadinejad tells West
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/06/061206101357.8mjamnal.html

Of course he's talking about the Muslim god, not the Christian god.  Christians think
they're right, Muslims think they're right, neither can see how ridiculous and untenable
this situation is.  By definition there can be only one God.  The bible is the word of god,
the Koran is the word of god--someone is wrong here and Christians and Muslims have
pointed the finger at each other over mountains of dead bodies created by religious
strife throughout the ages.  All this ignores all the other religions who feel they truly
know the mind of God--as if that were possible.

I believe in God.  Religion is mythology, nothing more.  So the Christian god, the Muslim
god, and all the other gods--you know, like Thor and Poseidon--these are all fairy tales.

Dawn

[Julie Marie]

One's definition of God can create debate, doubt, confusion or comfort.  But when you look to the skies on a starry night and see it goes on forever, when you stand atop a mountain and see the vast beauty before you, when you dive into the sea and watch the fish dart in and out of the coral reef do you wonder if God is a myth?

If you believe in the Big Bang do you ever wonder what there was before it?

If you believe the universe is finite, what is on the other side?

If you believe physical death is the end of our being, who created us at birth?

Is God a myth?  By man's definition, maybe so.  But when you look at all around you, when you try to fathom infinity, when you try to find the beginning or the end, it's hard to believe there isn't a greater power.

Julie

[Teri Anne]

Hi everyone --

TIFFANY -

You wrote, " If I had to see God to belive in God I wouldn't have faith. And that is what pleases God. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him"

Perhaps I've seen too many bunco crime shows on NBC's Dateline.  Bunco artists ask you to believe a scenario (like you'll get money if you deposit $2000 with them).  Many old ladies take their life savings on FAITH that they'll be rewarded.  Ministers ask, 2006 years after Jesus' appearance, for us to believe that there is a Heaven, a Hell, A God, a son Jesus and a Holy Ghost.  All we have to do it put money in the basket and we will be rewarded with everlasting life (something that, like a bunco scheme, sounds too good to be true).  I'm sorry that bunco schemes have made me suspicious.  Some might say that to believe ANYTHING on FAITH is one definition of the word "gullible."  How can God expect me, as a rational being, to be able to sort the FALSE SCHEMES from HIS STORY?  Faith?  It's a shame that he will apparently punish me severely for my suspicious nature.  Hopefully, my God will forgive this and be satisfied that I simply believe in a higher power.

JOSEPH -

Though some of my answers below sound critical, I don't mean them to be.  Unless I'm honest with my responses, I don't think I can get to the place most Christians reside.  You brought up Hitler at one point in your discussions.  I found it interesting to read recently that Hitler was religious (believed in God) and that eradicating Jews, in his mind, was all part of doing God's work.  While you say that we can't earn our way to Heaven, hopefully God will take into account that BELIEF IN HIM should not be nearly as important as doing GOOD WORKS.  At least, that's the way I'd like to think MY God is.  Last I checked, President Bush is a pretty strong believer also.  It's strange to me how some religious folk feel it's okay to kill people some of the time by dropping "smart" bombs from 25,000 miles up.  I would prefer a religion which states THOU SHALT NOT KILL and there'd be no small print with exceptions.

JOSEPH, you wrote, "I feel similarly towards the thought of hell.  But if you can imagine our justice system putting a family member in jail for murdering someone, it's the same feeling - somber regret, but acknowledgment that the justice system was not wrong in doing so."

Again, I'd hope that BELIEF IN HIM, on the scales of justice, is not as important as going out and "murdering someone."

JOSEPH, you wrote, "No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading...It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain... especially with the New Testament."

When you say, "especially," does that mean that there are some fundamental doctrines in the Old Testament that are out of date and/or untrue?  If so, why not do what the lawyers do, draw lines through the ones that should not be read?

JOSEPH, you wrote, "Another point where we probably clash is this notion that you can't control where you are born and it's all random.  But Christianity espouses a sovereign God who is in control of, among other things, the time and place of your birth.  This is not the time to get into a free will vs. predestination discussion, but there's this notion in Christianity that God is in control, and yet humans are still responsible for their decisions."

What about a tribe in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in the 1800's that has no outside contact with Christians, or anyone?  Do they die an eternal death in Hell because they were blessed with being born in wrong locale?  What about the tribes in Africa who believed in Chu Chu of the mountain?  Or the American Indian tribes?  You say that "it's like a 2-dimensional person trying to understand something in 3 dimensions."  Gee, so I should believe in something I don't understand?  I think the definition of that is "blind faith."  If that is truly what God is expecting, he'll get an awful lot of gullible people (I'm not talking about you) and, by definition, eliminate me.  I don't think that's a very nice God.  Just my thinking.

JOSEPH, you wrote, "Christianity isn't a prescription of how to be moral enough so that you get presents from some cosmic Santa, it's telling you that you're in a burning building and God is there to catch you if only you will trust him enough to jump out the window."

To be blunt, that sounds, to me, like a recipe for suicide.  Remember those people who killed themselves ten years ago because they were going to fly up to be on an asteroid?  Or the Jones masacre?  I realize that you mean "jumping out of a window" figuratively but such blind faith has had, unfortunately, some bad incidents.  All in the name of getting to a better life.

JOSEPH, you wrote, "The reason why I am a Christian is similar to the reason I buy insurance."

I guess this reason bothers me the most of all.  Imagine a bunco artist promising you something that he could never PROVE you would get.  If it turns out that "God is a Myth," it will be the ultimate scam bunco scheme.  Imagine all of the people who have struggled with expenses like food and yet contribute their meager funds to this ghostly image of a God.  He's there because the expensive church windows and frescoes say He is.  And the TV evangelists cry out, "If you want Him in your life, contribute now!"  Another example:  snake oil salesmen promise all kinds of things but at least you don't have to wait until after death to find real proof as to whether it's a scam or real.  By the time I'm dead, ministers will live in a different dimension (back on earth) than me and I can't get back there to haunt them if their claims of Heaven and Hell prove to be erroneous.

On another topic -- I have often noticed how, when someone is killed, they are raised up in their nobility.  I remember many in society (including my Republican parents) disliking President Kennedy...until he was killed.  Likewise, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, President Lincoln and Marilyn Monroe all seem far more glorious, in part, because of their early tragic deaths.  I'd like to believe that Christianity would still have happened had he lived a long life and not died dramatically on a cross.  But there He is, at the front of all of the altars of Christian churches.  The message is clear:  "He died for you!"  Some recent studies theorize that Judas may have not been the huge traitor that he's made out to be...some think that Jesus knew full well what Judas was going to do and that it'd result in Jesus' death.  Who can really know?  Deaths in Palestine cause some Palestinians to continue on and fight for the martyred husband, brother or sister...in HONOR of them.  If Jesus had lived a long life and died of natural causes, would Christianity have succeeded in the way it has?  I guess we'll never know.

KIMBERLY, Thanks for welcoming me back.

DAWN, I agree with you when you say, "I believe in God.  Religion is mythology, nothing more."

JULIE MARIE, you posed some interesting questions.  Regarding the question, what was here before there was a universe, I'd wonder, what did God do with his time before there was a universe?   Some scientists theorize that our universe is one BUBBLE among many bubbles.  "The God Delusion" posed one more similar question:  If God is a Supernatural Being, what Supernatural Being or Beings created God?  It's all like the riddle, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

I've also wondered, since childhood, how God could listen to millions of prayers coming from people at the same time.  In a similar vein, in a report on the NBC Nightly News, someone recently figured out how many tons Santa's sled would weigh and how fast that sled would have to be to travel to every chimney on the globe in ONE NIGHT.  The answers sounded downright supernatural but, in the end, at least we have the PROOF of a present on Christmas morning.  That Santa must be one intelligent designer.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and hugs,
Teri Anne

[Ricki]

continues to be a great post!
Joseph your post was very insightful, as i think you are a very good scholar in the religion field..
I am not, sadly i have manipulated my own form of christianity and pretty much deal with God and my angels one on one.. Not a bad thing just the way i chose to do it!
I was curious about some of the threads, especially Tiffanny and the suffering pieces.
I would not ever disagree there is suffering in this world.  But i try and believe something that is a mixture of religion and sciences...
See i try and think that in Gods perfection and wisdom he created a world that in its purpose was evolution and growth, minus adam and eve if the life itself was created that way or by a single cell and went from there either way if God in his perfection created something that was not decidely perfect but an imperfect world where he could see his children and watch them and monitor them, whatever you call it, then i believe that in this creation he had to create  a world that would have bad things and diseases and deaths along with good things through our very own evolution.  (Shame except for the rare rabid times animals live by natures rules and by a food chain they do not necessarily kill for an emotion or thrill;)
People are not like animals i guess...
anyway so with this little weird theory of mine i believe that these things are woven into the fabric of how God started this world, i beleve that he can interject and change things via his angels and he does but believe that as a whole he does not micromanage the world or events or the people almost like he set-it up to where he cannot or does allow himself to fully interject or manipulate the way we are and the way the world is evolving...
To me this explains why there are babies born dead, deaths, diseases, bad people, killers, rapists, saviours, good people, the sun the moon, cures to some diseases and not to others, ....AND yet somewhere in this; small and large miracles seem to happen all the time but they are indescriminate this guy hitsth lottery, this womans baby was saved through a nmiraculus car accident yet some others die or whatever....
I use this sometimes in the logic of trying to explain to myself why there are transsexuals and gays and child molesters and seemingly perfect people, and good kids and bad.. etc....
That God created the world from an imperfection standpoint to see where it goes and how we grow it as people..
But i do not believe any of this is a test for us, bad times, pain, suffering i think is woven into the frabric of this world not a test of our God to us to see if we are good enough enough to get into the next world?
I just do not know.
Some of my thoughts...
Ricki

[Joseph]

JOSEPH -

Though some of my answers below sound critical, I don't mean them to be.  Unless I'm honest with my responses, I don't think I can get to the place most Christians reside. 

Hi Teri Anne!

   Thanks so much for actually reading what I wrote, and then providing a well-thought-out response.  I know it was long, and I thank you very much for going through all of it.  You don't sound critical at all and I think your questions are quite reasonable.  Actually, I was hoping you didn't find what *I* wrote to be too critical sounding.

While you say that we can't earn our way to Heaven, hopefully God will take into account that BELIEF IN HIM should not be nearly as important as doing GOOD WORKS.  At least, that's the way I'd like to think MY God is. 

Great point.  James had a very similar point in James 2 when he noted even the demons believe in God (and shudder)!  This is a great opportunity to flesh out a bit more the starting point to understanding what the Bible is saying.  I intentionally left out a lot of it last time because the point of my last post was to illustrate that it's hard to have a coherent discussion about Christianity because we're not starting from the same common understanding about certain things.  It's like what happens when you say "I saw an Air Marshall at the airport today."  Even though they speak the same language, an American will think you mean someone who works for TSA.  A British person will probably interpret that to mean a high-ranking person in their Air Force.  Similar misunderstandings occur when discussing Christianity, because there are certain connotations that words take on in a Christian context, but not in others.

I'll try to keep this as short as possible, and feel free to ask more questions.  The Bible speaks of a God who is incomprehensibly holy ("set apart") and awesome.  There are no words to adequately describe how great he is. "blinding light," "magnificent," "king of kings," "lord of lords," "wondrous," "glorious," "mighty," "omnipotent," "beauty," "excellent," "praiseworthy," "splendor," "love" ... those are all words that can't begin to capture the essence of this being.   And what is this being's main purpose in life?  Sit down.  The main reason why God does anything is to glorify himself.    Yes, really.  If you don't understand this particular notion, there is almost no point in discussing other parts of Christian theology.  And unfortunately, it's something that many churches don't do a very good job of teaching.  There is a book I recommend on this topic.  It's called "God's Passion for His Glory" by John Piper, which is actually a book from 1998 that explains the book "The End For Which God Created the World" by Jonathan Edwards, an 18th century theologian, for those of us who have a hard time reading stuff from the 1700s.  It's really a disservice to try to shrink this topic into a few paragraphs, but here we go. 

Most people have a negative reaction when they find out God's chief end in everything he does is his own glory.  But that is because we know egotistical people that we dislike.  We dislike people who are full of themselves because they're not really any more special than we are, they often don't care about anyone but themselves, and really they're just showing off because they're insecure and they want to cover up their weak points.  But those reasons apply to people, not God.  Jonathan Edwards wrote, "If God is indeed so great and so excellent that all other beings are as nothing to him, and all other excellency be as nothing in comparison with his, and if God be omniscient and infallible, and perfectly knows that he is infinitely the most valuable being, then it is fit that his heart should be agreeable to this, understanding that he should value himself infinitely more than his [finite] creatures."  But wait, you say.  I don't like it when people don't care about ME.  But you see, WE were created for his glory!  And how do humans most glorify God?  By having a relationship with him - the best love relationship possible - and enjoying it! John Piper writes that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him, and this is one reason why he likes to put his glory on display.  Piper notes, "If God were to give us the best, the thing we would most enjoy, if He were to love us perfectly, He must offer us no less than himself for our contemplation and fellowship and joy.  And how are we to fully enjoy him if His grandeur and infinite worth are not made known to us?"

God created humans - and everything else - for his glory.  The universe glorifies him in worship.  We worship because we tend to praise/worship what we enjoy, appreciate, or believe to be excellent.  Piper quoted C.S. Lewis in saying, "I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment. It is not out of complement that lovers keep on telling one another how beautiful they are, the delight is incomplete till it is expressed."  As far as Christians know, everything that God created in this universe glorifies him except rogue angels (demons) and humans.  That's because we were given enough intelligence to become prideful and decide that we'd look for other lovers.  The love relationship with God was broken, and our objects of worship became anything else besides God.  Stars, nature, other people, even ourselves - these things became the center of our lives, not God.  Those who have been unfortunate enough to experience an adulterous spouse/partner have a taste of the broken relationship and heartache caused by this.  Paul wrote in Romans, "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised."  Later he went on to say "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."  John Piper noted, "The idea is not that you shot an arrow at God's glory and the arrow fell short, but that you could have had it as a treasure, and you don't.  You have chosen something else instead."  And in comparison with God, everything else is unspeakably ugly.

So this finally brings me to addressing your first question.  The belief talked about in John 3:16 is not merely the belief that God exists.  James clarified that when he said that true faith produces GOOD WORKS.  You can't use the loophole, "well, I'll just believe in God and then continue doing bad things."
And by the way, when I say faith, read one of my previous posts so we're on the same page about what I mean: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,6253.msg51368.html#msg51368

Christian belief or faith is, in essence, turning AWAY from sin - i.e. our rejection of God - and coming back to him.  We choose him over everything else, and place him at the center of our lives, where he was supposed to be.  So, I almost totally agree with your quote above - the only place where we differ is I believe that belief/faith in God goes hand in hand with good works.

I would prefer a religion which states THOU SHALT NOT KILL and there'd be no small print with exceptions.

Comments about Iraq aside, technically speaking the hebrew for "kill" in the ten commandments is the word used for taking someone's life without cause.  This is a different word than the word used for what is usually translated as "murder."  So that particular commandment is not prohibiting taking someone's life, period.

Again, I'd hope that BELIEF IN HIM, on the scales of justice, is not as important as going out and "murdering someone."

Hopefully, this has been clarified.

JOSEPH, you wrote, "No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading...It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain... especially with the New Testament."

When you say, "especially," does that mean that there are some fundamental doctrines in the Old Testament that are out of date and/or untrue?  If so, why not do what the lawyers do, draw lines through the ones that should not be read?

No, it just means that there are fewer ancient copies of the old testament surviving today, which should be understandable.

What about a tribe in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in the 1800's that has no outside contact with Christians, or anyone?  Do they die an eternal death in Hell because they were blessed with being born in wrong locale?  What about the tribes in Africa who believed in Chu Chu of the mountain?

Very common question.  The bible says that God will judge in a way where no one will be able to say he judged unfairly.  That's why I don't personally judge people, and don't tell them that they're going to hell.  How am I supposed to know their heart?  But I do try to tell them the same message that I've been given, i.e. we're all sick and here's how you get to the doctor.

You say that "it's like a 2-dimensional person trying to understand something in 3 dimensions."  Gee, so I should believe in something I don't understand?  I think the definition of that is "blind faith."  If that is truly what God is expecting, he'll get an awful lot of gullible people (I'm not talking about you) and, by definition, eliminate me.  I don't think that's a very nice God.  Just my thinking.

Yes and no.  There's an understanding of God that can lead to a turning away from sin and lead to the acceptance of entering into a relationship with him.  I already noted what I mean by faith.  But, if God is truly as great as the bible attempts to describe, there's gonna be a heck of a lot that we DON'T understand about him.  We've come a long way since Job, (believed to be one of the earliest people talked about in the bible) but there are some questions in Job 40-41 that we still can't answer or understand (and probably never will in this life.)  If we can't even understand quantum mechanics, and quantum mechanics was created by God in that one sentence, "Let there be light" then I think it would be foolish to think we could begin to understand everything about him.  Besides, is a God that we can totally explain a God that is worthy of worship?

JOSEPH, you wrote, "Christianity isn't a prescription of how to be moral enough so that you get presents from some cosmic Santa, it's telling you that you're in a burning building and God is there to catch you if only you will trust him enough to jump out the window."

To be blunt, that sounds, to me, like a recipe for suicide.  Remember those people who killed themselves ten years ago because they were going to fly up to be on an asteroid?  Or the Jones masacre?  I realize that you mean "jumping out of a window" figuratively but such blind faith has had, unfortunately, some bad incidents.  All in the name of getting to a better life.

Again, this should be addressed in my explanation of what I mean by faith.  Let me know if it isn't.

JOSEPH, you wrote, "The reason why I am a Christian is similar to the reason I buy insurance."

I guess this reason bothers me the most of all.  Imagine a bunco artist promising you something that he could never PROVE you would get.  If it turns out that "God is a Myth," it will be the ultimate scam bunco scheme.

Again, the explanation of faith.  By the way, the analogy about insurance is imperfect, and that's why I said "similar."  To draw an analogy that is closer to Christianity, I'd have to be causing car crashes pretty much every day, and I pay virtually nothing to have the company continue to insure me.  The reason I use the insurance analogy is because it says something about our response to our perceived reality.  Some people don't buy insurance because they think it's a waste of money (this doesn't include people who are too poor to afford insurance, btw.)  Those types of people will usually only buy insurance if they come to terms with the fact that they are not invincible, they make mistakes, other people make mistakes, roads get icy enough to put any good driver in the gutter, etc, etc.  In the same way, humans only turn back to God when they come to terms with the reality of how ugly their sins are against God and how precious a treasure he is in comparison with everything else they can possibly have.

On another topic -- I have often noticed how, when someone is killed, they are raised up in their nobility.   
...
I'd like to believe that Christianity would still have happened had he lived a long life and not died dramatically on a cross.

I love your questions, btw.  You're probably framing this all better for me than if I just sat down and wrote something about Christianity.    Josh McDowell (another Christian) once gave an analogy for why Christ came to earth and died for us.  It was his way of forgiving us, but still ensuring that justice was served.  Reference my previous post about the mass murdering bridge player.  Anyways, McDowell said, say a daughter is running around the living room and hits an expensive lamp.  It falls on the floor and breaks.  The dad comes home and finds the broken lamp.  The daughter rushes up to him and says "I'm so sorry, daddy!"  The dad says, "that's okay, honey.  I forgive you."  And all is well.  But wait - who pays for the lamp?  The daughter doesn't have enough in her meager allowance to pay for it.  The father ends up paying.  McDowell goes on, "Let's say somebody insults you in front of others and later you graciously say, I forgive you.  Who bears the price of the insult?  You do. This is what God has done.  God has said, I forgive you, but He was willing to pay the price Himself through the cross."  But wait - Jesus had to die, AND be resurrected.  Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Jesus had not been resurrected from the dead, then our faith would be in vain.  It would be like trying to make a payment for someone, but not having enough money to get them out of debt.  Christ died so we could be raised from death to life.  If he didn't have the power to overcome death himself, then it was all in vain.  Paul wrote, "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."  I believe I once wrote something about why I think it may be reasonable to believe that the resurrection actually occurred.. ah yes, here we go... only a billion posts ago in this same thread  :
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2008.msg16722.html#msg16722

And by the way, to address something you said later (maybe in response to what I wrote about the resurrection, but it wasn't addressed specifically to me) the bible doesn't talk about how most of Jesus' apostles and family members died.  Their deaths are recorded in other historical records.

DAWN, I agree with you when you say, "I believe in God.  Religion is mythology, nothing more."

By the way, something you've probably heard Christians say is Christianity is not really a religion as much as it is a relationship with God.  Religion is usually about all the things you need to do to get to heaven. As someone put it (not sure who started this phrase,) religion is spelled "D-O."  Jesus spells it "D-O-N-E." We come to heaven on His terms, not ours.  If there is a God who is greater than me, especially as great as the one described in the bible, I think it's reasonable that he sets the terms, not me.  Especially considering he didn't HAVE to set any terms.  He could have just thrown up his hands and said "whatever" - kind of like what we do when we make inventions, computer programs, kids  , that aren't cooperating or acting the way we hoped they would.

All the best,
Joseph

[Tiffany Elise]

Joseph;
  Terriffic explainations! I love your style.
  Tiff

[cindianna_jones]

Julie, I see what you are saying and in many ways I agree with you.  Wonderment is a marvelous thing and something we humans have been generously gifted with.  But let me answer your "postulations" for kicks and gigles.

One's definition of God can create debate, doubt, confusion or comfort.  But when you look to the skies on a starry night and see it goes on forever, when you stand atop a mountain and see the vast beauty before you, when you dive into the sea and watch the fish dart in and out of the coral reef do you wonder if God is a myth?

Nope.  I don't think about god then.  I'm too busy wondering at what I see.  If we were to use magic to define light, we would never invent a light bulb.

If you believe in the Big Bang do you ever wonder what there was before it?

I believe that the Big Bang is the best explanation for what we see going on in the universe. This is called theory. When you drop a ball, I believe that the theory of gravity will explain what will happen. God does not make the ball drop, the mass of the earth pulls the ball towards it. Yes, the big bang and gravity are just theories.  I do not believe IN them.  But I believe they are the best attempt to explain what it is that we see.  They add up the observable evidence and put forth a cohesive explanation.

What was before it?  The understanding of space and time will be coming to your local high school some day.  There's some gnarly, meaty and very cool stuff in it all.  But before it ends up in parochial school ciriculum, you'll have to read up on it on your own.  A lot of it is still in the guessing to be sure.  But that's where we need to further our quest for understanding.

If you believe the universe is finite, what is on the other side?

Actually, you should never ask an astronomer this question... for you see, there are real answers   For example, our "universe" as defined as the matter within has a physical dimension.  It has a limit as far as we know.  What exists beyond that is empty space.  Now as to the point of explaining the "side"...  There are other dimensions... woah... we could really get into this one deep....

If you believe physical death is the end of our being, who created us at birth?

My mother and father did.  His cells comingled with her cells.  Sometimes there are really some simple answers.

Is God a myth?  By man's definition, maybe so.  But when you look at all around you, when you try to fathom infinity, when you try to find the beginning or the end, it's hard to believe there isn't a greater power.

No it isn't.  I don't find much spiritually interesting about a rock.  Everything is made from similar elements. Space is just space. God didn't invent that. These are only elements foreign to our experience. I wonder what an uneducated medivial farmer would do if brought into my home and were to spend the day with me.  Would he not think I was a god?  I could show him how we kill people on television, heat up a tv dinner in the microwave and almost instantly transport him to another town in my iron chariot.  I can't begin to imagine how he would contemplate my magic wand, the Visa card.

I can not use God do define my world.  It just doesn't work.  Personally, I find it much easier to define my spirituality separately.  That makes it easier to keep from tearing one apart when viewed from the other.  I look at the universe and I marvel at the physics.  I look at my mother and I cherish the love that I have for her.   I see the energy jet from a black hole and I marvel as it disects atoms at its event horizon.  I watch the news and see how we are collectively underpowering our lives with a net loss of spirituality.

God is love. God is in the rain.

The stuff out there... up in the sky.... we can see, we can explain, we can learn more.

Love,

Cindi

[Kevin Peña]

I frankly find the idea of God to be something people use to keep the masses is check. Religion enforces so many societal rules, started so many wars, and prevents change in the minds of the populous. I never believed in any higher power simply because it doesn't make sense to me that something so powerful could come from nothing. I believe that the only thing ever to come from nothing is the universe itself. Everything that followed adheres to the rules we now know to be science.

If pondered further, every religion has a hell you are cast into if you don't follow their religion. Thus, everyone would be in hell since no one follows multiple religions. Religion basically pokes holes in its own logic too many times to be valid.

I believe that people are good at their core. We don't need some concept of God and divine punishment to be good people. That should come from the inside.

PS--> Something I just thought up. ---> Every rule has an exception, except for this one. However, by having no exceptions, this rule is the exception to the rule that states that all rules have exceptions. It proves and disproves itself.

[supremecatoverlord]

Reincarnations are a myth.

[blue.ocean.girl]

I frankly find the idea of God to be something people use to keep the masses is check. Religion enforces so many societal rules, started so many wars, and prevents change in the minds of the populous. I never believed in any higher power simply because it doesn't make sense to me that something so powerful could come from nothing. I believe that the only thing ever to come from nothing is the universe itself. Everything that followed adheres to the rules we now know to be science.

If pondered further, every religion has a hell you are cast into if you don't follow their religion. Thus, everyone would be in hell since no one follows multiple religions. Religion basically pokes holes in its own logic too many times to be valid.

I believe that people are good at their core. We don't need some concept of God and divine punishment to be good people. That should come from the inside.

PS--> Something I just thought up. ---> Every rule has an exception, except for this one. However, by having no exceptions, this rule is the exception to the rule that states that all rules have exceptions. It proves and disproves itself.

I have a ton of faith in humanity. Knowing what I do about evolution, I don't believe that all humanity suddenly went from primitive animals that don't think about things like that, to suddenly believing in gods. It took a few, who maybe weren't the most powerful of their tribe, but with more intelligence, to scare the others into following them by using stories of magic and gods to explain how things work. Things caught on and tada!... you have the first government... err religion.

So I agree. I think religion is just a part of, like you said, keeping the masses in check. Its a part of politics that will always be there to keep the general populace under control. I would like to see this change too, but I think at this point it may be too strongly entrenched in society. Then again, I think a few religions, or perhaps just some of their doctrines and practices, should be outlawed on the basis of human rights. I think "freedom of religion" has gone a bit too far.

As for gods as a creative force, my policy is that there is simply not enough evidence for or against the belief. Physicists have discovered that things inexplicably come from nothing all the time at the quantum level. Also, there is a ton of mathematical research that has led many theoretical physicists to believe that we are not simply living in a universe, but an infinite multiverse, with universes within it being created and destroyed all the time. The recent discovery of what appears to be the long searched for Higgs-Boson particle--or "God" particle--will hopefully give us more information to go on.

Some people rely on God like a crutch, like my family. I am positive that if my mother ever lost her belief in God, she would most likely commit suicide. She wouldn't be able to deal. From speaking with her, it has become obvious to me that she just cannot cope with the world as it is. She needs God. And so, even though that means she might never except me, I want her to have her crutch to lean on.  I don't know, I might be completely New Atheist and against religion if it weren't for my family, who never speak to me anyways. Its an emotionally confusing subject for me. lol