Can Gender Identity Change Over Time Or Not? I Am So Confused!

[Tristyn]

Last night I downloaded an ebook called The Gender Book from the official website by the author. He is intersexed and based off of his experiences as an intersexed individual and what I read in the summary before ordering it as a  free download, I thought it was a reliable resource. That is, until I got to a part in his book where he talks about figuring out what your gender is , I guess if you aren't sure or your questioning and experimenting with it.

The thing that baffles me to this day is the question of whether or not gender identities really do or can change and if so, could we make them change into what we want? This book, as supportive of gender nonconformity as it seems, claims that gender identities do/can in fact, change. I am so confused, because some people...most people, who are educated in this subject, say that gender never can change. I mean, which one is it? Is it one or the other. I don't think you can have it both ways.

As a side note, I have also heard that even sexual orientation can/do change as well. Again, I am so confused and puzzled at this because once again, most people who are educated in this subject would disagree with that previously said statement. Yet I have heard people on here and read from endocrinologists that even say that sexual orientation can possibly change once hormone replacement therapy is initiated. Again, is it possible to change this at will or must we be manipulated by something else, such as hormones, to do that? Or is it impossible for this to change as well? Is it wrong for me to ask? I am merely curious and wanting answers if there are any, to my questions.

You hear about in the news section on here, at Susan's, about animals like frogs, being able to change genders at will. If we are the most advanced and intelligent species we know of, as scientists claim, how come we wouldn't be able to do that ourselves? And if we can, is there a way to do this intentionally without being coerced or through painful techniques such as conversion therapy? I have so many questions its keeping me from going to sleep.....Imma bout to burn yet another real hole into my skull from this....

Thanks guys.

[stephaniec]

I don't know , but I've been like this since I was 4 and I've been through one heck of a lot of therapy and the only conclusion that I have for myself is to accept who I am. Who I am is definitely not determine by the genitals I was born with.

[Ms Grace]

Frogs, etc don't change gender at will, they change primary sexual characteristics due to environmental/mating requirements.

As to whether gender can change, I guess it is possible. Maybe the author is non binary and they are finding that their focus and identity is shifting from time to time as a result.

[Tristyn]

Of course gender is not based off of our genitals, Stephanie. I'm really sorry if it sounded like I was implying that when I mentioned sexual orientation. Even our sexual orientation has nothing to do with what is between our legs.

And Ms. Grace, I guess I didn't understand completely what was being said about the frogs.

When you say that their sexual characteristics change, are you talking about their biological/chromosomal sex? I'm really sorry if this is stupid to ask. I might be expecting answers to questions no one can possibly know for certain yet.

Believe me, guys, I'm not asking these questions out of doubt for our gender identities. I'm sorry if it ever sounds that way. I am a very curious, agnostic kind of guy I guess.

[Elis]

I don't think gender identities or sexualities change exactly; I think we simply learn more about ourselves and find different labels which suit us better. After thinking I was lesbian, then straight, then asexual, then demisexual, I now find that queer suits me best. Did my sexuality change. Nope, I was born queer, it just took me a while to discover the right words. I mean, new labels to describe things are developing all the time. Similarly with my gender I went from gender queer to ftm and now mostly identify as male with some agender mixed in. Again my gender didn't change, I just grew up not knowing there was a box outside male and female or that trans even existed.

[autumn08]

Gender fluidity exists, so yes, it is possible to change genders, but I do not know of any way to intentionally do so.

[Tristyn]

Looking in retrospect now, I think that's what the author was trying to say. I think he meant that gender is very fluid, like what Autumn said. And also, that you could name it whatever you want based off of what feels right and comfortable to you, like what Elis said.

If I look at it in this way, it kinda makes more sense.

And Elis, I also identified as all of the things you mentioned at one point until I got to genderqueer and FTM. Though I do not only identify as FTM. I still can say I am very much a gender queer person too. I think that there are so many labels I can apply to myself, that I am quite satisfied with this label : being myself.

I guess if my gender identity does change, I hope its in a way that comes natural to me, makes me feel at peace and comfortable with myself.

[Deborah]

Frogs and fish change sex.  They do not change genders.  The concept of gender, as we are defining it is unique to humans. 

In my personal experience it is not possible to change genders.  It is only possible to put on a exterior image to others to be any gender you choose.  The inside still remains the same and as we know, over time this causes mental distress.


Sapere Aude

[Asche]

When I think of "gender identity", I think of it as how I understand myself.  For instance, I only recently (last 2+ years) started thinking of myself as trans.  I have always been this way and had the desires and things I could and couldn't do, it's just now the way I make sense of all that stuff is to say I'm trans (and always was.)

So, how I "identify" -- that is, how I make sense of myself -- has definitely changed.  And that has led me to consider changes in how I live (e.g., transition) that I wouldn't have before.  But it hasn't changed my nature.

[Tristyn]

Frogs and fish change sex.  They do not change genders.  The concept of gender, as we are defining it is unique to humans. 

In my personal experience it is not possible to change genders.  It is only possible to put on a exterior image to others to be any gender you choose.  The inside still remains the same and as we know, over time this causes mental distress.


Sapere Aude

Yes. This sounds sensible to me. I guess when I read about the frogs and fish changing their "genders," I read it from someone on here. I suppose they meant "sex." I know the difference between the two; gender is what is between your ears and sex is what is between your legs, right?

Anyway, I suppose having gender accessibility is what separates us from other species' of life. You know what I'm sayin'? Like, that makes sense. Animals do not have this sense of self the way we humans do. At least, I don't think they do. They don't have to worry about these kinds of things like gender identity and expression.

So to say that the frogs and fish change sex does make more sense. I sure wish we could. I mean yes, we can take hormones to tremendously relieve gender dysphoria and I am all for that, no doubt, but if you stop HRT, you will detransition physically back to your biological sex in a way that helped to create your original gender dysphoria, you know what I mean?

But going back to genders changing. So are you saying that due to the mental stress we face on a day to day basis, our gender identity is unchangeable no matter what, but what actually changes is the expression of that identity (gender expression) in relation to the mental distress, the pressure we have to face from those closest to us, in being either who we are or something we aren't in order to please?



Phoenix

[Deborah]

Yes.  What I mean is that, for a mtf you can present yourself in the most male way possible, and be very good at it, while all along thinking of yourself as female.  For ftm it is of course opposite.  This is what causes the mental distress because it's a never ending act where the disconnectedness between the way you feel and the way you act is ever present.

My most vivid example in my own life is this.  When I was 27 I was in a restricted to male Army school that was both very long and extremely stressful.  I remember one night when I was having a particularly rough time the only thought in my mind was, "What am I doing here?  Women are not supposed to be here."  So while my act was pretty successful my mind was fixed.  Over time the stress of being in character for that act just beats you down until you get tired of simply living.


Sapere Aude

[Tristyn]

The issue too is like cis people, who seem to be the majority, do not or are not able to comprehend this at all no matter how hard you try to explain this.

They wonder why I walk around so depressed much of the time, why I am so "crazy," don't have any friends and running back and forth to the hospital for suicidal ideation like 3 to 6 times a year with some temporary mental stability in between.

They don't get that they kind of contribute to the suffering many of us go through, known as gender dysphoria. Even when you try to tell them how hard it is for us to figure our gender out and why that is, they don't want to hear it. Hence, making the dysphoria even worse.

I want to be so sure of my gender identity and sense of self, that I will never in my life want to or even think to return to that fake "woman" I once was solely for the sake of others, excluding myself.



Phoenix

[Serverlan]

Last night I downloaded an ebook called The Gender Book from the official website by the author. He is intersexed and based off of his experiences as an intersexed individual and what I read in the summary before ordering it as a  free download, I thought it was a reliable resource. That is, until I got to a part in his book where he talks about figuring out what your gender is , I guess if you aren't sure or your questioning and experimenting with it.

The thing that baffles me to this day is the question of whether or not gender identities really do or can change and if so, could we make them change into what we want?

Not sure if you can change gender or sexual orientation at will. If you could switch it on and off like that, it probably means the capacity was always there to start with, and so couldn't really be counted as a conscious change?

Conversely, it does seem likely that gender or sexual orientation could change over time (due to a variety of pressures/influences), though perhaps not everyone has the capacity to do so.

I really have no idea, just throwing around some ideas. It's complex.

[Tristyn]

It is indeed complex, Serverlan.

I suppose gender will be on my mind day and night like a fly annoyingly buzzing in and out my ear. You know what I'm sayin'? Like a constant, ongoing, eternal monologue inside of my brain that loops over and over again about myself regarding my body and gender.

A constant, internal battle between my gender and sex. A constant, internal battle between the "real"me and "fake" me for the right to expression.

I can't wait until March 14th....HRT is a comin'!



Phoenix

[Serverlan]

It is indeed complex, Serverlan.

I suppose gender will be on my mind day and night like a fly annoyingly buzzing in and out my ear. You know what I'm sayin'? Like a constant, ongoing, eternal monologue inside of my brain that loops over and over again about myself regarding my body and gender.

A constant, internal battle between my gender and sex. A constant, internal battle between the "real"me and "fake" me for the right to expression.

I can't wait until March 14th....HRT is a comin'!



Phoenix

As important as language is to us -- terminology and the way that people address us -- I think we all tend to get bogged down in semantics regarding gender. Like you, a constant gender dialogue is rolling through my head, taking up precious brain space that could be better used on numerous projects I want to start. It's draining. If only there were some way for us to just be who we feel, like most other people on this planet who don't give a second thought to their gender. Unfortunately society generally looks upon ambiguity with a frowny face, condemning us to validate who we are as a rite of passage into mainstream society.

[Tristyn]

As important as language is to us -- terminology and the way that people address us -- I think we all tend to get bogged down in semantics regarding gender. Like you, a constant gender dialogue is rolling through my head, taking up precious brain space that could be better used on numerous projects I want to start. It's draining. If only there were some way for us to just be who we feel, like most other people on this planet who don't give a second thought to their gender. Unfortunately society generally looks upon ambiguity with a frowny face, condemning us to validate who we are as a rite of passage into mainstream society.

Yes. Gender dysphoria, this OCD-ish analytical "disease" of the mind regarding the discrepancies between our brain and body, can suck up a great deal of our life. I can literally spend hours laying in bed wide awake just thinking about all of the things I could be doing but I don't because I am more focused on what my gender dysphoria has to say about that.

And I think films like E.T. directed by Steven Spielburg, was really about being different, fear of the unknown, scrutiny and eventual acceptance (sort of). Its a fact, I believe, that the majority of people (mainly cis people) are very afraid of the unknown or unfamiliarity. So its no wonder alot of us are in a repetitive war within ourselves about our gender like this. Even if I went back to "living" as female I will never truly "be" female except to those around who do not know me very well and even some of them would be able to tell that something is very "off" about me. -.-



Phoenix

[FTMax]

I believe that everything is different for everyone, and while you might see a majority emerge based on common experiences, I don't think the majority can speak to the breadth of experiences that are available. Experts make generalizations based on data.

I think gender identity can change as you gain access to more information. The more terms you uncover that fit your narrative, the more likely it is to change. That doesn't happen for everyone - sometimes they don't question it, sometimes the first label they find fits perfectly. I think what most commonly changes for people is their gender expression.

I would imagine that what the author is speaking on is mostly related to non-binary folks. Based on what I have read from other folks' experiences, it is fairly common to be questioning much longer, and fluctuating in identity as a non-binary person, especially given the general confusion from the rest of society that can wear on a person and cause uncertainty. I think it's probably less likely for a binary person, but that is just my experience and the experiences of people I know IRL.

Sexuality can totally change. Think about the traits you've been attracted to over time. It most likely hasn't been the same your entire life. It's probably a combination of genetics, hormones, and experience that causes the change. For me, I have always been attracted to women. Pre-transition I also dated transmen, but post-transition I have no interest in anything remotely masculine. It was like a mental light switch being turned off.

[sparrow]

Oh yes, gender changes.  My gender can change multiple times a day.  Depending on how/why that happens, it can be a fun surprise or the worst thing. I'm happiest when I'm not aware of my gender.

My sexual orientation has changed over the years: I gradually get more open-minded.

[Kylo]

If we are the most advanced and intelligent species we know of, as scientists claim, how come we wouldn't be able to do that ourselves?

The explanation in biology terms would be that we don't need to. For one thing, our sex ratio is almost equal. In some species, like reptiles, it isn't because the sex of all their eggs in a single batch is determined by the temperature they develop in. Humans' sex isn't determined by the environment in this way, and our sex ratio is pretty much equal... so some need to change sex in a single sex environment to procreate isn't realistically required in our species. In evolution, things only exist because there was a real need for them either now or in the past for a particular life-form. If they are no longer needed, they are eventually lost.

We are able to adapt our environment to us instead of having to adapt to it... look at what we've done to the world and how we've controlled so much of it to suit our needs. Frogs and fish can't do this.

The more complex an animal is, the less robust it is, technically. Humans are far more complex in structure and function than the average invertebrate... you can cut a worm in half and it will become two worms, cut the limb of a starfish off and it will regrow. Do either of those things to a human and you've permanently damaged or probably killed them. That's because the basic structure of these animals is closer to undifferentiated parts that can take on new functions if they have to - a human doesn't have these abilities except in certain places (i.e. the skin, liver etc.) Some more advanced organisms like lizards can regrow their tails, but notice how they can only re-grow the simplest limb on their bodies... they can't regrow the more complex ones with toes and claws and complex asymmetrical muscular structures.

The idea we humans are the highest and most advanced life forms is just human hubris. What's really the most successful organism on the planet? Probably bacteria or viruses, since they outnumber us, have been around far longer than us, and they will be around after us, too. The 'best' organism in evolution's terms isn't the smartest, just the one that can survive and keep surviving in almost any situation. Humans are in a precarious place in reality, since we're nowhere near as adaptable as some creatures if there was a sudden change in environment. We've taken a path in evolution that means the only real strength we have is the use of our minds to overcome problems.

[Qrachel]

Hi King:

Interesting thread . . . I may jump in later, it's a rainy lazy Sunday (Yawn!)

Rachel