Man undresses in women's locker, cites gender rule

[Deborah]

So we have the Evangelical Right who consider themselves paragons of virtue and protectors of truth creating an issue where none previously existed.  Or we could say that since they have no facts they engage in subterfuge.  All of that done simply to score a political victory.  I see.

Their religion is a joke.


Sapere Aude

[Sydney_NYC]

I started my transition under the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, and my therapist gave me a letter to carry with me that stated I was diagnosed with gender dysphoric and that I was transitioning and on HRT. My therapist advised me to carry the letter with me prior to my legal name and gender change, while I was out dressed and to show it to an officer if I was pulled over, or questioned about using the ladies room. Do therapists still issue these types of carry letters?

My therapist offered to give one but said in NJ its not really an issue with the anti-discrimination laws here and my HRT doctor did give me one and I never had to use it. I started using the women's bathroom at 3 1/2 months of HRT and at 6 1/2 months I had my ID changed with my female name and gender marker. NJ makes it fairly painless. The gender was easy to change compared to my name with the scare of identity theft and so forth. I've never been questions at all in the bathrooms or the locker room at the gym. (I only change down to panties and with my tuck no one can tell I'll pre-op or trans.) Even with the laws in NJ on my side, I would not want to take everything off being pre-op in the ladies locker room. It's uncomfortable to me and I know it would make other women uncomfortable. I think that's a common sense approach.

[kira21 ♡♡♡]

Won't the police pay him a visit and ask him to explain himself? I am pretty sure they would here and maybe prosecute if he is really is a guy deliberately invading the girls locker room to cause a disturbance.

[RobynD]

Won't the police pay him a visit and ask him to explain himself? I am pretty sure they would here and maybe prosecute if he is really is a guy deliberately invading the girls locker room to cause a disturbance.

No because technically he is within the law by being there, if he identifies as a woman. It is trolling activism by people who want to spend their energy hurting others.

Now if he is at all disruptive in said locker room, he loiters for too long, he stares or leers, harasses in any way, management can ask him to leave and not return.

If he then is disruptive in leaving or returns, the police can be involved, trespassing and disturbing the peace are two possible laws he would be breaking at that point.

[kira21 ♡♡♡]

But they say he didn't identify as a woman and the police would therefore check that right?

[Dayta]

I imagine that it's hard to pin down specifically and legally whether one identifies one way or not.  The more I think about it the more I think that the whole bathroom fight is aiming to fight a battle that has already passed in a sense.  As more people begin to explore and identify with something other than binary, the notion of binary restrooms will eventually become passe.  By the time we get any substantial movement in expanding the definitions of who can be in a ladies' room, we going to have another big fight about what to do with those who identify as non-binary or other categories. 

When you go to an outdoor concert or event where there are banks of portable bathrooms, side by side, and sinks off to one side where men and women alike wash up afterwards, it seems that no one has a problem with who's bathroom is next to whom's.  How long before we start to reimagine infrastructure without the notion of separation of the whole room and default to separation of only the stalls or one-person rooms? 

[suzifrommd]

As more people begin to explore and identify with something other than binary, the notion of binary restrooms will eventually become passe.

The vast majority of people still identify as one of the two binary genders. There are a lot of people who are very uncomfortable sharing a restroom with the opposite gender. (I am non-binary, and sharing a restroom with a man makes me uncomfortable).

I'm troubled by predictions like these for two reasons. First, I feel like we're telling people what they'll want, and second, it perpetuates the notion that we want to remake society (rather than just having a safe place to pee.)

[kira21 ♡♡♡]

Society 'remakes'  itself all the time.

Besides, gender neutral facilities doesn't have to require a shift in society, it just accommodates one that is already happening.

[suzifrommd]

Society 'remakes'  itself all the time.

Besides, gender neutral facilities doesn't have to require a shift in society, it just accommodates one that is already happening.

I agree.

On the first point, there is a difference between society remaking itself and society imposing changes on people who are not comfortable with them. I claim that the vast majority of people still favor restrooms that they do not share with the other binary gender.

On the second point, yes, gender neutral facilities are a great idea. But it's a long way from making gender neutral facilities available to getting rid of all gendered facilities.

[kira21 ♡♡♡]

I don't know. Its not like you actually mix the genders in gender neutral changing or restrooms.

I also don't see the problem in phasing gendered facilities out. In the UK we have a requirement for all facilities to support disabled people where at all possible (The only real exception is for listed, historic buildings). Almost everywhere has had disabled loos fitted. It didn't cause any real problems. What difference would changing gender specific facilities to single occupancy restrooms take? Sure a bit of expense, but tell businesses it will be a requirement in 5 years and then do it... No real problem.

[Sebby Michelango]

I propose that anyone caught abusing this law be sentenced to immediate hormonal and surgical reassignment. 

If that penalty were given, guys like that wouldn't abuse the law.


Sapere Aude

I'm agree a person who abuse the law should get a punishment. Maybe a fine or some months prison would be a nice punishment for that person. If they aren't mature enough or have a mental illness, the government should considering to help them. But I'm very disagree with you forcing a person to undergo a 'gender change' surgery and opposite gender hormones if that's a cis person who's abusing the law. Because it's a line between punishment and breaking the humans rights. Making hormones would cost a bit. Not enough with that, surgery would cost a lot of times and moneys as well. The resource should we rather use at people who really need it, not criminals. They belongs to the prisons. It's unethical to experiment at people like that and it would cause a lot of gender dysphoria.

I don't wish gender dysphoria or doing someone else to transgender, even not my worst enemy. There are people who do harmful acts and crimes, but we have to prove them respect is a positive thing. Then we have to show them a bit respect and not put them in unethical experiments that may be permanent and damage them.

[Valwen]

The only Papers I ever carried was my name change form for a short time after I changed it but before I got all my other paperwork fixed, I still keep a copy in my car with my registration, it has been changed but they never sent a new copy so the one in my car has my old name on it. Then again I live in massachusetts things are good here in regards to being trans.

I swear the US is going to be a painful holdout on mixed gender locker rooms and bathrooms. We are a culture where public Television is perfectly ok with a show that depicts in graphic detail a man gunning down a half dozen other people after assaulting a helpless prisoner to get information from him. But show just one bum, or a single female Nipple and someone is getting sued and fired.

we are a country that is so terrified of nudity that we arrest women breast feeding and TV is trying to convince me that after sex most women put there bra back on before going to sleep and that everyone shyly gets out of bed using the sheets to cover themselves so that there spouse of 10 years wont see them naked.

Serena, Sick of humanity

[Emileeeee]

We have no problem watching videos of people getting killed or demanding to see a corpse after a raid, but not being able to sexualize the female body? Oh heck no! Allowing everybody to pee in peace? Why would you suggest such a thing?

The bathroom debate never really worried me until now. I'm wondering if I'm going to be allowed to pee on vacation this year.

[ChelseaAnn]

I'd just like to point out something I'm surprised no one has yet. This happened in the US. And, let's face it, the United States, despite being the "land of the free," and boasting about how it protects people and allows freedoms and everything, does not.
Seriously. I think the only thing that is going on in the states is that we are making so many "protections" that we are actually starting to unprotect people. We have a right to bear arms. I don't own a gun. I have no criminal record whatsoever. So, I go out, buy an automatic rifle (which, apparently is required to take down a deer.... ??), and I could walk to my local mall and take out hundreds of people. Why? Because I have a right to carry a gun. Protected? I was. But not those people in the mall.
It's the same thing really. Let's "protect" cis people. We wouldn't want "creepy men" abusing the system. When really, the conservatives are worried about a non-passing trans woman coming in. But, let's face it (and I'm being truthfully honest without trying to hurt feelings), there are some cis women who might not pass as women.
At this point, with concern to protections and such, the United States was probably better off under English rule. Sure, there are conservatives all over the world. However, as far as laws and progress are concerned, the United States is far behind other countries. The fact that conservatives are encouraging such behavior as a man deliberately abusing the rule to make a point is sickening. It just proves how sick our government is. And that is not to say the liberals aren't that way too. They have their own faults as well. But, I must bring this whole thing to one point.
IT HAPPENED IN THE U.S. Point made.

[Beth Andrea]

Point not made.

In our case, we are harmless (non-aggressive), and we want the right to pee in piece. The general population (the conservatives) are the ones who are the aggressors in the bathroom.

To compare a rifleman in a mall to this case, the rifleman has to be non-aggressive (even though he is carrying a rifle), and the mall patrons, upon seeing him, feel threatened and beat him en masse.

Clearly the general population is in the wrong. One cannot defend while at the same time doing a pre-emptive strike.

Keep in mind that there are many rifles out there, and probably 100 times as many penises...the threat of a typical rifleman going berserk just because he has a rifle is about the same as a typical man who might rape, just because he has a penis. And both "going berserk" and "rape" are crimes, which can only be prosecuted after the fact.

That's what is so great about the US...we are innocent until proven guilty. The State must not be allowed to curtail our Liberties in the name of safety.

Imho

[ChelseaAnn]

My point wasn't to imply that we're threatening, but that in the US, there is always someone who will abuse the freedoms we are given.

[ToniB]

I am actually amazed at all the fuss unless You use open toilets over there .as I see it you are all in separate cubicles as far as I am aware nobody disrobes before entering their cubical You lower your clothing do your business and readjust Your clothing before leaving the cubical .So where is the threat to personal privacy You can not see anybody and nobody can see you whilst You are actually on the throne so what is the problem .I have yet to see another Woman in a state of undress in a restroom .what are they worried about

[Dee Marshall]

I am actually amazed at all the fuss unless You use open toilets over there .as I see it you are all in separate cubicles as far as I am aware nobody disrobes before entering their cubical You lower your clothing do your business and readjust Your clothing before leaving the cubical .So where is the threat to personal privacy You can not see anybody and nobody can see you whilst You are actually on the throne so what is the problem .I have yet to see another Woman in a state of undress in a restroom .what are they worried about

The only two things I can attribute this to, having started a sort of trans revolution over restroom use at my place of employment, is that some women here are squicked by the thought of a man hearing them pee or poop or that the thought of a naked penis hidden "only!" by a two inch thick piece of wood makes them nervous. Many Americans have always been especially touchy about anything even vaguely sexual and feel that women should be considered as like a Barbie doll between the legs. Our own odd little purdah, I fear.

By the way, we have won the battle at my store. Personnel has made it clear that we're within our rights.

[JenniferLopezgomez]

However, this incident points a to a grave miscalculation on the part of trans rights activists. We've been touting the fact that no one has ever done this, while we all know full well it was only a matter of time when someone did.

Good point. And now it has happened once. Appropriate presentation is called for. I am a full-time female and I've used only women's public restrooms/toilets since going full-time and Ive never had any issues with restrooms use. Never asked for ID. Although my ID (passport) is female if I were ever to be asked.

[JenniferLopezgomez]

My therapist offered to give one but said in NJ its not really an issue with the anti-discrimination laws here and my HRT doctor did give me one and I never had to use it. I started using the women's bathroom at 3 1/2 months of HRT and at 6 1/2 months I had my ID changed with my female name and gender marker. NJ makes it fairly painless. The gender was easy to change compared to my name with the scare of identity theft and so forth. I've never been questions at all in the bathrooms or the locker room at the gym. (I only change down to panties and with my tuck no one can tell I'll pre-op or trans.) Even with the laws in NJ on my side, I would not want to take everything off being pre-op in the ladies locker room. It's uncomfortable to me and I know it would make other women uncomfortable. I think that's a common sense approach.

Your approach is commendable.