Susan's Place Logo

News:

Visit our Discord server  and Wiki

Main Menu

Finasteride and effects on mood

Started by KayXo, March 24, 2016, 04:53:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

KayXo

J Clin Psychiatry. 2012 Sep;73(9):1220-3.

"Rates of depressive symptoms (BDI-II score ≥ 14) were significantly higher in the former finasteride users (75%; 46/61) as compared to the controls (10%; 3/29) (P < .0001). Moderate or severe depressive symptoms (BDI-II score ≥ 20) were present in 64% (39/61) of the finasteride group and 0% of the controls. Suicidal thoughts were present in 44% (27/61) of the former finasteride users and in 3% (1/29) of the controls (P < .0001)."

"Clinicians and potential users of finasteride should be aware of the potential risk of depressive symptoms and suicidal thoughts. The preliminary findings of this study warrant further research with controlled studies."


I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Laura_Squirrel

I HATED that stupid drug. It made me severely depressed and I thought about suicide constantly. I was glad to get rid of it. Thanks for shorting me two days dose, drug manufacturer.
  •  

KayXo

J Dermatol. 2002 Oct;29(10):665-9.

"In this paper we report 19 patients (14 males, 5 females; mean age 28.16 years +/- 7.68 SD) out of a series of 23 (17 males, 5 females) who developed a mood disturbance (moderate to severe depression) during treatment with finasteride"

"Depression, which significatively impaired sociofamilial relations, sleep and eating behaviour, was associated to marked anxiety in some cases, developed after 9-19 weeks of treatment with finasteride, and promptly resolved after suspension of the drug. Two patients accepted reintroduction of the drug, and depression relapsed within 2 weeks."

BMC Clin Pharmacol. 2006 Oct 7;6:7.

"Mean age of the subjects was 25.8(+/- 4.4) years. At baseline, mean BDI and HADS depression scores were 12.11(+/- 7.50) and 4.04(+/- 2.51), respectively. Finasteride treatment increased both BDI (p < 0.001) and HADS depression scores significantly (p = 0.005). HADS anxiety scores were increased, but the difference was not significant (p = 0.061)."

"This preliminary study suggests that finasteride might induce depressive symptoms; therefore this medication should be prescribed cautiously for patients with high risk of depression."

The reason for this is because finasteride reduces concentrations of allopregnanolone, similar to dutasteride, due to inhibition of alpha-reductase activity. Since allopregnanolone has anti-depressive, anxiolytic and neuroprotective effects (also improves memory and learning), these effects should be no surprise. Some may be more susceptible than others.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Maybebaby56

This is something I worry about as a current finasteride user. I am on the Proscar dose of finasteride. My endocrinologist does ask me about depression when I see him.  I do get occasional bouts of depression, but they are fleeting - maybe a day or so - and thankfully do not happen often. I think it has more to do with the stress of transition, though, than any drug-induced side effects.

Finasteride does help with my scalp hair.

~Terri
"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives" - Annie Dillard
  •  

Maybebaby56

Quote from: Laura_Squirrel on March 24, 2016, 05:12:58 PM
I HATED that stupid drug. It made me severely depressed and I thought about suicide constantly. I was glad to get rid of it. Thanks for shorting me two days dose, drug manufacturer.

Lol!  Is that like the complaint, "The food at that restaurant is terrible, and the portions are too small!"

Just amusing myself,

Terri
"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives" - Annie Dillard
  •  

StillAnonymous

M.S. Irwig, "Depressive Symptoms and Suicidal Thoughts Among Former Users of Finasteride With Persistent Sexual Side Effects", J. Clin. Psychiatry, Vol. 73(9), pp. 1220-1223 (2012).

For our purposes, I don't think finasteride will cause depression in general.

QuoteThe former finasteride users experienced sexual side effects that began while they were taking finasteride and that persisted for at least 3 months despite cessation of the medication.  The indication for the medication was male pattern hair loss, and the men started and completed finasteride use before 40 years of age.  Men were excluded from the study if they reported baseline sexual dysfunction, chronic medical conditions, current or past psychiatric conditions, a history of taking psychiatric medications, or baseline use of non-topical prescription medications other than a short course of antibiotics.

QuoteThe interaction between sexual dysfunction and depression is complex, as one may lead to the other.  Remarkably, there are hardly any published studies on depression secondary to sexual dysfunction in young men.

QuoteThe study population was also limited to those suffering from persistent sexual side effects of finasteride.  It is therefore unknown whether the depressive symptoms and suicidal thoughts are present in general users of finasteride who do not report persistent sexual side effects.

I think what is being implied in the thread title and the brief clipping is a bit misleading or misunderstood.  The stronger correlation in this paper is between persistent (unintended) sexual side effects and suicidal thoughts, and not between finasteride and suicidal thoughts.  I think these sexual side effects would be a bit more intentional for many of us, and might increase some of our own happiness. 

I do have to admit that it is briefly mentioned in the discussion how finasteride may chemically cause depression using neuroactive steroids.  This discussion isn't the main point to the paper or the take away... it is only discussing a possibility and what it infers, and it doesn't prove anything.





  •  

Sydney_NYC

I've been on Finasteride for 2 1/2 years and it didn't affect me mentally negatively at all. If anything, helped my mood. However, for a cis-male, I could see where it could since it lowers the most powerful part of T (DHT) and there is no E to offset that. Kind of like taking Spiro but not taking E.
Sydney





Born - 1970
Came Out To Self/Wife - Sept-21-2013
Started therapy - Oct-15-2013
Laser and Electrolysis - Oct-24-2013
HRT - Dec-12-2013
Full time - Mar-15-2014
Name change  - June-23-2014
GCS - Nov-2-2017 (Dr Rachel Bluebond-Langner)


  •  

KayXo

In the second study, all 5 females experienced depression after taking finasteride despite E in their system. I doubt depression was caused by an inability to perform sexually.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

KayXo

Fertil Steril. 1995 Aug;64(2):299-306.
Clinical and endocrine effects of finasteride, a 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor, in women with idiopathic hirsutism.


"After 6 and 9 months of treatment, the hirsutism score improved significantly in the patients receiving finasteride, whereas no significant modifications were observed in patients treated with placebo. The side effects observed were headache and depression of modest entity during the 1st month of treatments, whereas libido did not change."





I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

StillAnonymous

Quote from: KayXo on March 24, 2016, 09:54:52 PM
Fertil Steril. 1995 Aug;64(2):299-306.
Clinical and endocrine effects of finasteride, a 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor, in women with idiopathic hirsutism.


"After 6 and 9 months of treatment, the hirsutism score improved significantly in the patients receiving finasteride, whereas no significant modifications were observed in patients treated with placebo. The side effects observed were headache and depression of modest entity during the 1st month of treatments, whereas libido did not change."

I had to google what hirsutism is.  I'd be depressed too.

edit:

I'm looking into the other papers.

G. Altomare, and G. L. Capella, "Depression Circumstantially Related to the Administration of Finasteride for Androgenitic Alopecia", J. Dermatology, Vol. 29(10), pp. 665-669, (2002).

QuoteIn this paper we report 19 patients (14 males, 5 females...

QuoteOnly two patients (n° 1, n° 6) accepted to reintroduction of the drug, with prompt relapse of the mood disorder in both cases (within 2 weeks after restart).

Quote... a mood disorder is to be attributed to an exogenous substance when it is circumstantially related to the assumption of the substance itself (e.g. on the basis of the clinical history) and cannot be better explained in another way.

QuoteFour of the 15 male subjects who developed the mood disorder had had sexual disturbances during the treatment with finasteride, such as slight reduction of the libido or of the volume of ejaculate, none of which seemed to influence their sexual life or mood significantly.

QuoteIt must be noted that 3 out of 4 patients did not suffer from mood disorders during finasteride treatment, declared they were not satisfied by the treatment.

I have to admit, this paper isn't very convincing. 

It's very short, and it lacks the story.  Their pool is very small.  Why did two of the patients reintroduce finasteride (this could imply that the depression is inherent of something else)?  They admit the vagueness of the mood disorder and their assumption (that it's related to the finasteride).  Four of the 15 males had sexual disorders, and claimed it wasn't related to the depression...  I find that difficult to believe and sounds like a typical thing males are socially trained to lie about "Oh yeah, I can't do anything with it right now... but it's not causing any problems at home!  My hands are big!"  It sounds like the treatment generally didn't work for the balding.  They didn't say much about the five women in that paper.

--

The other one is having a server error at this moment.



I'm curious to see its merit.



  •  

Paige

Quote from: KayXo on March 24, 2016, 05:33:29 PM
The reason for this is because finasteride reduces concentrations of allopregnanolone, similar to dutasteride, due to inhibition of alpha-reductase activity. Since allopregnanolone has anti-depressive, anxiolytic and neuroprotective effects (also improves memory and learning), these effects should be no surprise. Some may be more susceptible than others.

I must admit I have had those thoughts but I attributed it to being between a rock and a hard place.  Maybe I should think about the dutasteride I've been on for more than a year.

Thanks KayXo, 
Paige :)
  •  

KayXo

#11
Quote from: StillAnonymous on March 24, 2016, 10:39:19 PM
I had to google what hirsutism is.  I'd be depressed too.

The question remains: were they depressed before the treatment of finasteride or did depression develop during treatment? If it is the latter, then it is not related to hirsutism.

QuoteI have to admit, this paper isn't very convincing. 

It's very short, and it lacks the story.  Their pool is very small.

Doesn't take away the fact that all 5 women experienced depression 12-16 weeks into treatment and that that there was remission after suspension of the drug 4 days - 3 weeks later. The sample is, as you say, extremely small and there is also no placebo group to compare to which makes for not so solid and reliable results but warrants further investigation and larger randomized controlled double blind placebo trials. Sample size will be limited by the fact that hirsutism and androgenetic alopecia may not be that common in the female population.

Interesting to note that all but 1 female did not experience improvement in hair whereas the degree of improvement was much higher in males which perhaps suggests that alopecia in most these women is either not hormone-related or that they are much more sensitive to the effect of DHT.

From paper

"In all cases the clinical history was negative for psychiatric or neurological disorders."

"during finasteride treatment, mood disturbances arose even in subjects (13/19) who were satisfied by the stabilization of hair loss induced by the drug."

Combined with the fact that depression symptoms resolved after discontinuation of treatment, these findings suggest depression was likely the effect of finasteride.

QuoteWhy did two of the patients reintroduce finasteride (this could imply that the depression is inherent of something else)?

These men experienced improvement in hair loss (perhaps to a great extent) during treatment with finasteride and despite having had felt bad during that treatment, were maybe hoping that this second time would be different (being hopeful) especially considering the positive effects the treatment had on their hair. Relapse further strengthens the idea that finasteride is tied to depression.

QuoteThey admit the vagueness of the mood disorder and their assumption (that it's related to the finasteride).

"All of the patients, who fitted the diagnosis of "Substance-induced mood disorder" in accordance with the DSM-IV-TR criteria (6)"

"According to the recommendations and the decisional algorithms of the DSM-IV-TR (7), they were classified as having drug-induced mood disorder"

I also explained above why it is highly likely that finasteride was the cause of their depression.

QuoteFour of the 15 males had sexual disorders, and claimed it wasn't related to the depression...  I find that difficult to believe and sounds like a typical thing males are socially trained to lie about "Oh yeah, I can't do anything with it right now... but it's not causing any problems at home!  My hands are big!"

"Four of 15 male subjects who developed the mood disorder had had sexual disturbances during the treatment with finasteride"

What about the 11 male subjects who developed mood disorder despite experiencing no sexual disturbances? What about the 5 women?

QuoteIt sounds like the treatment generally didn't work for the balding.

Only 1 woman out of 5 had stabilization of hair loss. 12 of the 14 men experienced stabilization of hair loss so it sounds like it did work for most men.

QuoteThey didn't say much about the five women in that paper.

Table 1 gives some details about the women: age, classification of alopecia, former treatments, degree of depression and other manifestations, duration of treatment before onset of depression, effect of treatment on hair loss, time to recovery from depression after suspension of drug. They were all Caucasian and Italian like the guys. That last part (in addition to other factors mentioned above) makes findings hard to generalize due to the homogeneity of their race and ancestry, I admit.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

KayXo

#12
Some further thoughts on this...

Whatever the cause of the depression seen with finasteride users, unlikely in my opinion to be the cause of sexual dysfunction as in the absence of this, depression was still noted, why take it if there is a chance that its further reduction of DHT and/or reduction of allopregnanolone levels may induce depression, despite adequate amounts of estrogen in the blood? Finasteride and dutasteride are, in my opinion, not absolutely required for our purposes as we already have estrogen, other anti-androgens, some progestogens, all the necessary components for a successful physical transition. Our T and DHT levels will already be quite low.

Had I known, I would have never taken finasteride.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

StillAnonymous

I don't want to be mean, but that is way too long to read.  The publications are shorter, sorry!  I didn't want to leave you without a response after you put a lot of time into responding, and I am thankful for it.



  •  

KayXo

Quote from: StillAnonymous on March 25, 2016, 07:38:11 PM
I don't want to be mean, but that is way too long to read.  The publications are shorter, sorry!  I didn't want to leave you without a response after you put a lot of time into responding, and I am thankful for it.

My post is way too long to read? Really?

I've put even more thought into this matter and realized why take a drug that reduces levels of a critical neurosteroid, allopregnanolone which has so many important functions. Inhibition of 5 alpha reductase enzyme might be beneficial for reducing DHT and improving hair loss but at the cost of also reducing other important neurosteroids for brain functioning and well-being. Just not worth it! Taking anti-androgens or/and estrogens are all we REALLY need. :)

Reviews in Endocrine and Metabolic Disorders
September 2015, Volume 16, Issue 3, pp 177-198


5α-tetrahydroprogesterone (THP; also known as allopregnanolone)

« THP participates in the control of affection and mood, being an endogenous antidepressive and anxiolytic agent. Alterations in brain THP levels participate in stress and stress-related disorders and in psychiatric disorders [157–159]. Since THP levels depend on 5α-Rs activity, the enzymes have important role in the control of affection and mood. Notably, an inverse relationship between THP and depressive symptoms has been noted [160], and several antidepressants have been reported to increase the deficits in THP in patients affected by major depression [161–164]. However, the antidepressant role of neurosteroids has been challenged by recent reports, in which the mood-enhancing effects of electroconvulsive therapy or transcranial magnetic stimulation were not paralleled by changes in neurosteroid concentrations [165, 166]. Recently, it has been shown that 5α-R is also involved in pain regulation, since THP is antinociceptive [167–169]."

"THP attenuates edema, trauma, stress, inflammation, apoptosis, and reduces oxidative stress during trauma or brain injury [31, 171–173]. THP is a protective agent in ischemia and maintains blood brain barrier integrity, memory and learning [173–176]. »

"5α-THP has neuroprotective and neuroreparative actions in the central and peripheral nervous system, restores learning and memory function in a mouse model of Alzheimer's disease (AD) [31, 182]. This is in agreement with the general decrease of neuroactive steroid levels observed in different animal models of neurodegeneration, such as Parkinson's disease, multiple sclerosis, peripheral neuropathies and diabetic encephalopathy [31, 171, 183–193]. "

"THP levels are significantly reduced in post-mortem human brains of AD patients [194]. A negative correlation was noted between THP levels and the degree of neurological degeneration in the brain of AD patients [194]."

"In addition, THP, and therefore 5α-Rs, participates in brain maturation and protection during late gestation and in newborns [195]."


I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

KayXo

Less than 1 yr to almost 14 yrs after finasteride discontinuation, symptoms both psychological and levels in the brain and blood persist. 

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2015 Feb;146:74-9.

"Patients also developed depression during finasteride treatment [10] and [11] that still persisted despite treatment withdrawal [12]. Depression after finasteride treatment might be due to impairment in the levels of neuroactive steroids. This steroid family, which includes both steroid hormones produced in peripheral glands and steroids directly synthesized in the nervous system (i.e., neurosteroids), has an important role in the control of nervous function, affecting mood, behavior, reproduction and cognition, as well as being protective agents in models of injury and neurodegenerative diseases [13], [14], [15] and [16]. Indeed, finasteride is not only able to block 5α-reductase (5α-R) enzyme, which converts testosterone (T) into dihydrotestosterone (DHT), but also the conversion of progesterone (PROG) into dihydroprogesterone (DHP) [16]. In this context, it is also important to highlight that these neuroactive steroids are then converted by the action of the 3α- or 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase into 5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol (3α-diol) or 5α-androstane-3β,17β diol (3β-diol) in case of DHT and into tetrahydroprogesterone (THP), also known as allopregnanolone, or into isopregnanolone in case of DHP [16]. It is interesting to note that THP, as well as the 3α-diol (i.e., a metabolite of DHT), are known as ligands of GABA-A receptor [17]. Moreover, isopregnanolone does not bind directly to the GABA-A receptor [18], but it antagonizes the effect of THP on the GABA-A receptor [19] and [20]. Changes in GABA as well as in neuroactive steroid levels in plasma and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) are associated with depression in several human studies [21]."

"Interestingly, our recent preliminary observations obtained in three male patients who received finasteride for the treatment of androgenic alopecia and that after drug discontinuation still had long-term sexual side effects as well as anxious/depressive symptomatology showed altered neuroactive steroid levels in plasma and CSF vs. those assessed in 5 healthy patients [22]. A further link with neuroactive steroids may be supported by recent observations. Indeed, as reported in a subset of post-finasteride patients with persistent symptomatology, a decline in their alcohol consumption was also observed [23]. This is very interesting, because a relationship between GABAergic neuroactive steroids and ethanol consumption is well documented [24]."

"Mean age of these patients was 38 years old; mean of treatment duration was 727 days. The interval between finasteride withdrawal and CSF sampling was very wide (range 171–5000 days, median 1635 days). "

"Although the severity of the anxious/depressive symptoms was quite variable in their frequency, overall all the subjects had a fairly complex and constant neuropsychiatric pattern. The most frequently reported symptoms were: reduction in self-confidence, decreased initiative and difficulty in concentration (71%), forgetfulness or loss of short-term memory (43%), irritability or easily flying into a rage (57%), depression and feelings of worthlessness (86%), suicidal thoughts (14%), anxiety (57%) panic attacks (14%) and sleep problems (86%)."

"Furthermore, all these patients reported at the moment of clinical and laboratory assessment muscular stiffness and cramps (43%), tremors (57%), chronic fatigue (86%) as well as joint pain and muscular ache (86%) in the absence of clinical evidence of any muscular disorder or strength reduction. It is important to highlight that, with the exception of sleep problems already reported by two patients, all these symptoms were not present before treatment with finasteride"

"Indeed, DHP, THP and isopregnanolone were significantly decreased in CSF of post-finasteride patients with levels under detection limit. DHP and THP were also significantly decreased in plasma, with the levels of THP that were under detection limit."

"on the contrary, both in CSF and plasma of post-finasteride patients the levels of T were significantly increased. While the levels of the first metabolite of T, DHT, were significantly decreased in CSF but unchanged in plasma"

"Levels of 17β-E were significantly increased in plasma and unchanged in CSF."

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Paige

Quote from: KayXo on March 31, 2016, 10:27:23 PM
Less than 1 yr to almost 14 yrs after finasteride discontinuation, symptoms both psychological and levels in the brain and blood persist. 

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2015 Feb;146:74-9.

Thanks for posting this KayXo.  That's certainly depressing.  After reading that last one I've decided that I need another approach.  After a year and a bit I'm stopping my dutasteride.

Definitely had a lot of muscle cramping since I started with dutasteride.  Hopefully I'll be lucky and I don't have long term problems because of taking it.

Paige :)
  •  

KayXo

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Soli

Yesterday I posted about finasteride, at the wrong place apparently. It got moved in this section of the forum, which I didn't know. Maybe it should be moved here, if I had seen this post, I would have posted it on this thread.

I feel absolutely no depression effect with finasterdide. On the contrary, I explain in my post that it really helps my feminization. It really does. Every morning I look better. Finasteride makes me feel great.

It does have a shrinking effect though on my lower parts... I read a forum where men taking finasteride for baldness problems are gathering for a class action against the pharma making finasteride for they are now impotent, even after only a few weeks of taking finasteride, and were not given the warning, with permanent effects even years after stopping taking the drug.

Reading forums though, you may get false impressions. I think it's only a minority of bald men who become impotent with finasterdide.

I think every individual is different and that therefore there can be no fixed recipe for the cocktail of products we take to transition, and that no professional can claim to have the perfect recipe. I for myself get very good result with very low dosages of everything (spiro, estradot) That's why I think not being able to discuss dosages is not a plus for this board. I understand the reasons but... what to discuss then? And anyway proscar was mentioned here, which is a dosage of finasteride easy to find with Google. Anyways that is how doctors work: adjust the dosage to the individuals according mostly to the feedback of the patient, since every patient is different.
  •  

KayXo

But why take a drug that reduces important neurosteroids for the brain? This is what I take issue with. One could take estrogen to reduce T and DHT to low levels. This would be enough. I believe some anti-androgens might even be safer, such as spironolactone, LhRh agonists and low dose bicalutamide. There are safer approaches, in my opinion.

As always, check with your doctor.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •