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Which first, estro, antiandrogens or both?

Started by louise000, October 18, 2007, 04:17:49 PM

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louise000

I've been reading about various so called transgender hormone regimens. Some say mtf should be on anti-androgen treatment for a time before starting estrogen, others say start on estrogen then start anti-androgens after a month, others by default imply that both estrogen and anti-androgens should start at the same time.

My intuition tells me that the first is right as it seems sensible to start blocking testosterone before introducing estrogen.

I'd be grateful for any comments.

Louise
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gothique11

I started them both at the same time. I don't know if there is really a "perfect" way to go onto HRT.  The Estrogen will also bring down your T levels.

I'm not really sure if there is really any testing on TS people to see which way works better, or which combo or drug works better than others. Mostly it's personal experience, and with that you'll find different things have worked for different people. Different doctors will try out different methods that maybe they are curious to see if it works, or maybe it worked on another patient, and so on.

I would talk to your doctor about it and see what is right for you. I just did everything at once, myself, and things seemed to work out fine.

good luck,

--natalie
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Keira


Starting with the anti-androgen alone is done to
isolate its impact from other HRT meds like estrogen
you'll take later.

That way, if you've got a problem, they can switch to another anti-androgen before starting the HRT.

When T is down, it takes less estrogen to get the same effect on the body. Doctors are generally conservative, and want to keep you on the lowest dosage  (too low in my opinion, but hey), so starting anti-androgens first is logical according to this too.

You can also suppress T by taking high doses of estrogen (in the time were ethinilestradiol was the most prescribed, that was often the way T was suppressed without any anti-androgen used at all), but you won't be blocking it at the receptors so you'll still get a bit more effect from T than with an anti-androgen until the testes have been shut down (while on spiro, the T suppressing effect will be quicker).



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Kat

I received both prescriptions at the same time, but I waited a week in between starting them, to see if I had a bad reaction to one.  I could of waited longer but I was like "hell no!" and was taking both after the first week.
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Rachael

i was on Spiro for 3 months prior to estrogen, but that was more an age thing...
i dunno if it was any better or worse, but i began to develop very fast after the start of e  (relevant?)
R :police:
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taru

Starting first the AA and followed by the estro helps in isolating side-effects. Then again some people may feel down on AAs without any estro.

If there are no bad side-effects they can be started on the same time [just makes troubleshooting problems harder].
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Omika

My doctor started me on both progesterone and estrogen to begin, so she could monitor my blood pressure and the effects of the hormone before prescribing the andro-blocker.  I'm going to see her for the spiro next month, and I'm rather excited.  Mainly because I'm pleased as it is with the results I've gotten from just two months on the light dosage.

My doctor's reasoning for putting me on E and progesterone first is twofold.  The first is so she can make sure I'm handling the estrogen before complicating the cocktail with spiro, and the second is that the risk of cancer is greatly increased if you are taking estrogen without progesterone (it also aids in breast development.)

She's a post-op TS herself, and really knows her stuff.  I take her very seriously.

~  BB
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daisybelle

Who & Where

QuoteShe's a post-op TS herself, and really knows her stuff.  I take her very seriously.

She would be at the top of my list...

Daisy
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Rachael

there is no medical evidence for or against progesterone for transgender patients...
also, androgen blockers arent complicating things, thats E, AAs just lower things
not change things...
if anything, shes got it backwards...
R :police:
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Omika

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2007, 03:36:13 PM
there is no medical evidence for or against progesterone for transgender patients...
also, androgen blockers arent complicating things, thats E, AAs just lower things
not change things...
if anything, shes got it backwards...
R :police:

One of my best friends is well-versed in endocrinology, and my doctor really knows what she's doing.  My friend also agrees she's going about this correctly.  So...  once again I find myself irritated at completely opposing arguments from people on these forums.  I know I'm in good hands, and that I feel great.  I'm no medical expert, but I know several people who are, so I think I'll take their advice.

Thanks for the...  concern?  I guess? 

~ BB
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Rachael

i was just wondering, ive NEVER seen that aproach before in hrt prescribing... (not that im an expert by any means)
i guess shes the one with the MD...
R :police:
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Omika

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2007, 04:01:16 PM
i was just wondering, ive NEVER seen that aproach before in hrt prescribing... (not that im an expert by any means)
i guess shes the one with the MD...
R :police:

Estrogen is known to raise blood pressure, and if administered without progesterone, it is also known to increase the risk of cancer.  I've heard several doctors say this.  No to mention, women who go through puberty produce progesterone as well as estrogen, so prescribing one without the other seems silly. 

Like I said, it's not just her opinion, either.  I guess it depends on where you live?  I live in California, and my family is from San Francisco.  There are a lot of specialists and experts in this field available to me.

~ BB
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Rachael

um, they produce it when pregnant... not before in any effective level....

and estrogen raises it, spiro lowers it.. omg ying and yang!
hey, natal women can live with the cancer risks of being female, i think ill cope.
R :police:
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ketti

I only started antiandrogens resently after being on estrogen for almost a year.. i don't know if it was an intentional decision or something.. i have had three different peaple prescribing me hormones so far, and they all seem to have completely different opinions on how it is supposed to be done... :icon_dizzy:
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Caroline

Quote from: Blair on October 19, 2007, 04:14:59 PM
Estrogen is known to raise blood pressure, and if administered without progesterone, it is also known to increase the risk of cancer.  I've heard several doctors say this.  No to mention, women who go through puberty produce progesterone as well as estrogen, so prescribing one without the other seems silly. 

Estrogen without progesterone increases the risk of endometrial cancer.  Not something transwomen really need to worry about.  I've never heard of progesterones offsetting the increase in risk for any other cancers.  As someone deemed at high risk for breast cancer (pending the results of some genetic tests) I'd love to hear otherwise if you can provide any sources.
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Ell

Quote from: Andra on October 19, 2007, 04:31:32 PM
Estrogen without progesterone increases the risk of endometrial cancer.  Not something transwomen really need to worry about.  I've never heard of progesterones offsetting the increase in risk for any other cancers.  As someone deemed at high risk for breast cancer (pending the results of some genetic tests) I'd love to hear otherwise if you can provide any sources.

i agree. while progesterone is certainly good for natal women on HRT, it is often not even indicated for trans women on HRT. however, if it really does assist with breast growth, i want some.
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Omika

Let me put it to you this way.  As far as breast growth goes, I've barely been on my estrogen and progesterone dosage for two months, and I can't wear a normal sized shirt without it being very noticeable that I have breast development.  I'm so not used to it, I just wear sports bras because they're simple and comfortable, so I don't even know if I qualify for a cup size yet.  It might be a combination of my young age (twenty-three) and genetics (my mother and sister have very large breasts), but like I said, my doctor knows her stuff.  I trust her!

~ BB
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tinkerbell

I guess it all depends on your endo.  Mostly they start you out with a minimum estrogen dosage for three months just to see how you respond to it.  If after three months, your T levels are still high for a female, then they may increase the estrogen intake and prescribe an anti-androgen. 

My endo started me with a very high dosage of estrogen; it was three years later (and due to liver toxicity) when she prescribed Spironolactone & decreased my estrogen intake.  Did this changed improve my health?  Somewhat but unfortunately my liver enzymes are still very high despite being post-op.  :-\

tink :icon_chick:
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Keira

Your Endo probably prescribed you conjugated E or Ethinilestradiol (the later is especially troublesome) since I doubt someone could push the dosage of estradiol valerate high enough to damage the liver especially if taken by injection, though with estradiol Cypionate, there would be slight chance since its more concentrated enabling much higher dosages. Estradiol is basically the natural female hormones and pregnant women have massive amounts with little adverse toxicity on the liver. The problem with ethinilestradiol is that its very difficult to break down and at a high dose creates a lot of bad byproducts when its metabolised by the liver.

Using estrogen alone to push down T levels is not really done anymore, because endo's used ethinilestradiol to do it and the result was a lot of DVT and in rarer cases liver problems. Using estradiol would not cause this problem, but doctors prefer to not relly only estrogen to do the job. The advantage of spiro is that it blocks both production of T at the testes and at the  T receptor, so its action is quicker.

As for progesterone, usually if its given, its not given immediatly because it needs breast tissue to work on and it conteracts the effects of estrogen and since people start with lower doses of estrogen, you don't want that. After 6-12 months, you can add it. In GG's progesterone arrives when the menses start, that's 2 years at least after puberty started and breast started growing, so getting progesterone later seems to be how its done in nature.
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shanetastic

I just figure for the most part it's different between everyone.  I don't think really anything is going to be the same from a person to person, as all their perspectives are different.  But either way, whatever works and in safe I think is a good choice, so if those two work for you, I would imagine your fine.
trying to live life one day at a time
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