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There is no solution to this.....or maybe there is!

Started by jayne01, April 12, 2016, 11:22:37 PM

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Sno

Possible trigger warning...

This from my personal perspective, apologies if I'm using wrong terms etc.

For me the tipping point was realising that even at my current age (big 6' 4", and yes, hairy), there is a language and non-verbal communication barrier with the males around, and I make mistakes.

Those mistakes make me the 'outsider' - basically, as a male, I do not pass, even though I was MAAB.

I *feel* that, and yes the isolation hurts - I feel wrong.

This is in spite of my immersion in masculine society for the whole of my life.

Most of the time I feel that I, personally, have no gender (until the mirror proves me wrong). However actually actively questioning 'is it my gender?' is what makes me trans. 100%. Because Cis people don't do that *at all*, they never really question their gender. As I am discovering.

I found self acceptance of the title, for that reason as easy as the geek label, (cobol coding at 9, read the schools libraries, self taught assembly language at 13). The public acceptance, is a very, very much bigger deal...


Sno
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jayne01

Quote from: Fresas con Nata on May 20, 2016, 01:06:51 AM
Not me. I discovered this last year at 38yo. I even asked my parents and there's nothing.

How did you know the feelings were real and not something else causing you to feel this way? What made you decide you are trans?
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Fresas con Nata

Quote from: jayne01 on May 20, 2016, 04:08:32 AM
How did you know the feelings were real and not something else causing you to feel this way? What made you decide you are trans?

I can't find any reason that caused me to like women stuff. I like their clothes and want to wear them, I like how they make-up their faces and I want to be like that too. Heck I even have sexual fantasies in which I'm a woman. I go in girl mode and feel well, head high, this is me. Ok in the mirror I see myself as a guy in a dress but that will change over time. Then I go back to guy mode (work...) and it takes a lot of effort to remove the wig.

Mind you, I'm confused as hell, but then do I want to live the rest of my life as a male? NO. Would I wake up as a woman tomorrow if I could? YES. Cis people don't answer like that to these questions.

Might I be making a terrible mistake? Well then, if I'm having "fun" with all this stuff, then surely I will have REAL FUN when I need to publicly backtrack! :D
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Gertrude

Quote from: Sno on May 20, 2016, 03:00:12 AM
Possible trigger warning...

This from my personal perspective, apologies if I'm using wrong terms etc.

For me the tipping point was realising that even at my current age (big 6' 4", and yes, hairy), there is a language and non-verbal communication barrier with the males around, and I make mistakes.

Those mistakes make me the 'outsider' - basically, as a male, I do not pass, even though I was MAAB.

I *feel* that, and yes the isolation hurts - I feel wrong.

This is in spite of my immersion in masculine society for the whole of my life.

Most of the time I feel that I, personally, have no gender (until the mirror proves me wrong). However actually actively questioning 'is it my gender?' is what makes me trans. 100%. Because Cis people don't do that *at all*, they never really question their gender. As I am discovering.

I found self acceptance of the title, for that reason as easy as the geek label, (cobol coding at 9, read the schools libraries, self taught assembly language at 13). The public acceptance, is a very, very much bigger deal...


Sno

If you are trans woman, being big can be a challenge. 99.99% of woman aren't that tall and/or big. I am 6'5 and not skinny, but in my mind I am more female than male. It sucks. If there is a god, it has a sick sense of humor.
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Gertrude

Quote from: jayne01 on May 20, 2016, 04:08:32 AM
How did you know the feelings were real and not something else causing you to feel this way? What made you decide you are trans?

Because who we are is in between the ears. Denying it causes cognitive dissonance. Once admitted, I felt better, but not there yet. The desire to be authentic and align with who one is on the inside with outside is the fix.
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Deborah

QuoteHow did you know the feelings were real and not something else causing you to feel this way? What made you decide you are trans?

In my case I spent most of my life trying to make it go away.  I didn't hate myself or even feel bad about being trans.  I did however hate the way it made me feel trapped with no good way out.  As for it not being real and caused by something else, what possible other explanation is there?  I invoked Occam's Razor after intently examining it for years.  I also looked at all the counter arguments and without fail they all misrepresent what I know with certainty is going on inside my head.
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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jayne01

Quote from: Fresas con Nata on May 20, 2016, 08:07:16 AM
...but then do I want to live the rest of my life as a male? NO. Would I wake up as a woman tomorrow if I could? YES. Cis people don't answer like that to these questions....

Do I want to live the rest of my life as a male? YES. Would I wake up as a woman tomorrow if I could? NO. I just want these feelings gone, extinguished, eradicated.

Your questions above just reinforce my thinking that there is something else going on with me. I just don't know where else to turn. I've hit a dead end.
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SadieBlake

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 07:38:53 AM
How is that even possible? HRT takes years to work. How can you just switch back and forth between being feminine and masculine? There is not one single feminine feature about me. I am hairy, have a gigantic Neanderthal looking head, hairy, have a deep voice and act just like any other guy. No matter how drunk or high on drugs you may be, you will never mistake me as feminine. So how can one just switch between feminine and not feminine without any help from HRT/surgery, which makes the switching back and forth part kind of impossible.
....

Thank you. That is exactly what I am trying to say. Everyone that identifies as trans always has some link back to their childhood where they knew something was up. Even if they didn't know it at the time, thinking back retrospectively, the feelings were there.

Hrt works faster than you think, I felt the emotional changes within days and physical changes within a month, people were noticing changes within 2 months (not specifically that I was more feminine yet but I'm also not yet addressing facial hair). Like you I have no features anyone would identify as feminine.

And like most or at least many late onset trans women I had absolutely no idea until I was 40. In retrospect I can see some things but I've been actively trans for 20 years.

Again, I wrestled with this for a couple of years before deciding cross dressing  wasn't all it was about for me and longer than that to decide I was absolutely transexual and decided for then not to transition via hrt or SRS. I guess in retrospect I wish I'd not given in to pressure from my GF and explored low-dose estrogen however that's water under the bridge and the  time has not in any way been wasted, I've pursued new careers, immeasurably strengthened my relationship and been on balance pretty happy with life.

Lastly I have to wonder if learning to connect with your emotions might not also make memories you say you don't have become available to you. I know healing myself in the present  required remembering and understanding many things from my past and made the most painful memories less difficult.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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JoanneB

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 05:18:35 PM
One of the things that scares me the most is that I might one day discover and truly accept myself as trans but not for many years to come. So I would have wasted so much of my life for nothing.
I'm not totally sure exactly what your sentiment is here.

I do not see my in my case "My life ticking away" for the 50 some odd years prior to my acceptance of Yes, I am a transsexual woman. What I see today is that I could not accept, I could not take ownership of my life, and all my accomplishments prior to that time. While groping my way through the fog of despair and depression were the thoughts; "I want to be a 'Normal' guy" and I'm doing what is expected. Expected of course being the absolute minimum level of performance, anything less absolute failures. And boy did I have plenty of them I took complete ownership of because that was a yet another failure on my part on trying to be 'Normal'

Today, it is still difficult to totally 'Own' all the good, great, and cool things I have done on an emotional level. I suspect because there never was any emotion associated with them to begin with. However I firmly believe that every event in my life, in everyone's life is all part of their totality. The sum of all these events in some way go into making you, you. As long as the clock is ticking that is. I am the person I am today precisely because of those 50 some odd years prior

TBH - As of late, with the big 6-0 right around the corner I do see my life ticking away somewhat. Myself and about every other person hitting that milestone. For me feeling anything about a decade birthday is something totally new and different. A LOT of feelings I have today are mostly new and different. I actually feel things now.
.          (Pile Driver)  
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Emileeeee

How about not focusing on the "Am I trans" thoughts and focus on just being yourself. Being trans is not about making drastic changes to your body and presentation. It just means you don't quite fit into the box created by society. Try breaking down any walls that are preventing you from being 100% yourself without worrying about modifying your body. If after you're living as yourself totally you find that you can't cope with the body you're in, then consider the medical transition. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Do you act like you enjoy anything just because it's a guy thing? Stop doing that. Do you act like you don't like something because it's a girl thing? Stop doing that. Do you have anything you would like to try, but won't because you think it's too feminine? Do it anyway. Are your clothing choices because you like them and you like the way you look in them? Or were they chosen because they're manly? Wear what you want and forget everybody else. There will always be someone that disagrees with you. It's not your job to make everybody else happy. Your job is to make you happy. The only rules to being you are set by you. Nobody else has a say in that.


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jayne01

Quote from: Emileeeee on May 20, 2016, 04:36:14 PM
How about not focusing on the "Am I trans" thoughts and focus on just being yourself. Being trans is not about making drastic changes to your body and presentation. It just means you don't quite fit into the box created by society. Try breaking down any walls that are preventing you from being 100% yourself without worrying about modifying your body. If after you're living as yourself totally you find that you can't cope with the body you're in, then consider the medical transition. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Do you act like you enjoy anything just because it's a guy thing? Stop doing that. Do you act like you don't like something because it's a girl thing? Stop doing that. Do you have anything you would like to try, but won't because you think it's too feminine? Do it anyway. Are your clothing choices because you like them and you like the way you look in them? Or were they chosen because they're manly? Wear what you want and forget everybody else. There will always be someone that disagrees with you. It's not your job to make everybody else happy. Your job is to make you happy. The only rules to being you are set by you. Nobody else has a say in that.

I don't know what being 100% myself is. I don't know what it is I like just because I like it. I wear clothes so I keep warm and not walk around naked. I don't wear what I wear because it is manly or not. I don't have any fashion preferences. I just wear what is comfortable. I really don't have any identity of my own at all, male or female or anything in between. If I could choose to wear anything I wanted, I don't know what that would be, so I just go with what is practical at the time.
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Sno

have hug and a back pat {hug}

Quote from: jayne01 on May 20, 2016, 06:46:26 PM
... I really don't have any identity of my own at all, male or female or anything in between...

Have you heard of Neutrois.? or Agender.? they both fit exactly what you are describing here, and both a part of the transgender spectrum - the Switzerland of gender if you like. What I have read here, also has elements of gender-fluidity - some days feeling more female, others more male.

I'm going to start with an interesting paper (and the abstract covers the main points):

Psychiatry Res. 2015 Mar 30;226(1):173-80. doi: 10.1016/j.psychres.2014.12.045. Epub 2015 Jan 23.
Dissociative symptoms in individuals with gender dysphoria: is the elevated prevalence real?


from the paper abstract:
QuoteTherefore, because the body uneasiness is common to dissociative experiences and gender dysphoria, the question is whether dissociation is to be seen not as an expression of pathological dissociative experiences but as a genuine feature of gender dysphoria.

As has been reported in the paper above, that treating the dysphoria could help with the dissociation - I am not, however, a therapist or psychiatrist.

Neutrois and Agender folk have reported that taking HRT can silence the dysphoria (have a look in the discussion groups here), and clarify the internal gender dialog (either to the opposite gender, or remaining agender). the challenge is obviously down to the skill of the doctor prescribing and yourself on the level of physical change that is acceptable.

I'm not surprised though that this aligns with all the advice from the kind folk here ! ;)

I really feel for you, i know I feel wretched when I am dysphoric.


Sno
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PipTheCat

Hi Jayne, fellow aussie here, G'day :).

Coming a bit late to the thread but I'd like to tell you my story to see if it helps as I see some similarities didn't know really until 40, crossdressing a man in women's clothes.

In my 20's I started to dislike aspects of my male body (hair and later hips/bottom). I probably wasn't that male to begin with more likely androgynous so hence the low dysphoria. To combat hair I was shaving legs (arm hair wasn't a problem then) and at 28 to combat hips/bottom I put on some weight to get the desired effect (slight detrimental effect on waist).

Fast forward to 40 the further masculinisation (is that a word?) had me having some dysphoria but it wasn't that severe (like removing penis time). I lived with it with the help of a good non-gender specialist psychologist for which I had been going to for a couple of years for other issues. During these sessions I decided I was transgender, being gender non-conforming to gender assigned at birth, but I had not decided what flavor.

A year later I was referred by my GP to a psychiatrist because of a breakdown with depression/anxiety that became unmanageable. And in our first meeting I came out and said I was transgender and the reply was to asked if I had crossdressed to which the answer was no, so therefore I wasn't transgender. The psychiatrist saying this caused me no end of angst and confusion because I felt the label fitted somewhat. It goes to show that even specialists have biases, it took me a while to believe that even with their training they still make profound mistakes.

When I was 42 I went to gender experienced psychologist again in our first meeting I came out again and was received well regardless of the clothes I wear. I was given help with identifying myself in the transgender spectrum as I didnt feel that 100% MTF was the right thing for me. I also was given the name of a gender experienced psychiatrist to replace the previous psychiatrist I dropped because of sub-par results.

In my sessions with the new psychiatrist, I have started experimenting with crossdressing (after thinking its just clothes and they would do nothing for me) and I too have hit the why bother since I just look like a man in womens clothes. The small success (via trial and error) I have found that it is best to have pants/jeans which are sized for your hips and long length to match leg length and tops/arms which are sized for your shoulders and I guess the styles I have bought pretty much results in having a androgynous look.

I am also starting with an endocrinologist to be prescribed anti-androgens because of my dislike of certain aspects of my male body hopefully the AA with help my male based dysphoria, I guess when this is sorted out oestrogen will be next.

I pegging myself as non-binary agender/androgynous/fluid, agender because I don't feel particularly male or female, androgynous because I don't like certain aspect of male (hair, v-shape torso) and want some aspect of female (hips, bottom), and fluid because sometimes I do want breasts and a vagina, and other times I can live with the penis and testicles.

Hug, hopes this helps and good luck in finding some peace to your angst and confusion (I know it can be an ordeal).

Regards, Pip.
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jayne01

Hi Sno, thanks for the info from the paper about dissociative symptoms. Interesting! It might apply to me. This is the first I'm hearing of anything like this. No therapist has ever mentioned anything like that to me.
I don't know about Neutrois or Agender. It doesn't feel like I'm no gender. It feels like I'm a guy that has thoughts/feelings that confuse me, until I look in the mirror and get reminded that indeed I am a guy, and then those feelings go away and get replaced with a different kind of confusion of why did I have those thoughts in the first place, but I am a guy.

Hi Pip,
Thanks for sharing your story. I see some similarities to me except for the link back to a young age (in your 20's). I cannot find that link back to my youth. I find it hard to believe that I have just become transgender in my 40's with nothing to link back to a younger age. It's not like I got hit by lightning and 'bam!' Now I'm transgender. It is not making any sense to me.
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PipTheCat

Hi Jayne,

I guess though as I had these feelings when I was younger (though not as young as others when they were 4yr old or at puberty) but I didn't see it as I was transgender at that point in my life, it was just a feeling that had to be rectified. Only later when the dysphoria became worse I started to contemplate transgender and deal with it as a whole rather than just treating the symptoms of dysphoria.

So I guess the point is that maybe you could rectify your dysphoria by doing something simple and not worry about whether your transgender or not. I don't know if you said how your dysphoria manifests but maybe there are simple ways to reduce it like hair reduction, tucking, etc.

Regards, Pip.



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jayne01

Quote from: PipTheCat on May 21, 2016, 07:41:46 AM
... I don't know if you said how your dysphoria manifests ...

It is usually something as simple as passing a woman in the street who looks similar age and similar build to me. Also, seeing two women together (as a couple) sets me off, maybe because I am attracted to women, not men.

In then get thoughts in my head wishing I was these women. When I think about it, I start to feel really creepy. These women are just going about their day minding their own business and here is me wishing I could be them. That seems so messed up. It makes my own skin crawl, imagine what these ladies would think if the could read my mind. Yuck!.....I've just creeped myself out now just writing that.
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Violets

Quote from: jayne01 on May 20, 2016, 09:13:53 AM
Would I wake up as a woman tomorrow if I could? NO. I just want these feelings gone, extinguished, eradicated.

Jayne, could it be that you want these feelings eradicated purely because of external/practical reasons (ie, hurting your wife, shame, fear of repercussions from society, fear of not passing etc)? I ask this because of a seemingly contradictory statement you made recently, being:

Quote from: jayne01 on May 08, 2016, 05:47:25 PM
The idea of not being trans and perhaps never speaking of it again actually made me feel like I would be destroying part of myself.


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SadieBlake

Jayne,

in Arch Sex Behav (2012) 41:759–796 DOI 10.1007/s10508-012-9975-x
Report of the American Psychiatric Association Task Force on Treatment of Gender Identity Disorder

"In particular, those with late onset are more likely to have had unre- markable histories of gender nonconformity as children, and are less likely to be primarily sexually attracted to individuals of their natal gender, at least prior to gender transition (Lawrence, 2010)."

This is the guidance document for the APA that established the diagnostic criteria for the DSM-V.

As many of us have said, here you have it from the experts: GID with late onset tends to in fact not include childhood experience of GID, that is you're the rule not the exception.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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keira166

#378
Quote from: jayne01 on May 21, 2016, 06:10:05 AM
Hi Sno, thanks for the info from the paper about dissociative symptoms. Interesting! It might apply to me. This is the first I'm hearing of anything like this. No therapist has ever mentioned anything like that to me.
I don't know about Neutrois or Agender. It doesn't feel like I'm no gender. It feels like I'm a guy that has thoughts/feelings that confuse me, until I look in the mirror and get reminded that indeed I am a guy, and then those feelings go away and get replaced with a different kind of confusion of why did I have those thoughts in the first place, but I am a guy.

You say you are a guy (sometimes), and its just that the sight/thought of women makes you want to be them, and that makes you feel bad.  There's a version of agender that do feel they have an gender (could be you since you say you're a guy [from a few posts]), but they think it is or that it should be irrelevant and that they don't want outside pressure to define them (seems like you're stressing about gender, lol an understatement I think).  How do you know you're not this type of agender?

Personally, I'm almost that agender, but I never have gotten that sense of being man/woman, like some people do (like you do if thats what you mean when you say you're a guy[in some posts]).  I still emphasize not wanting to care though.

A lot of times it feels like I could just be a cis-guy, but I love (so much!!!) how agender/nonbinary takes pressure off trying to be someone I'm not (so I can do whatever I want, regardless of feeling masc/fem).  Somedays I don't really see a difference between me and a somewhat feminine guy (or a masculine girl, besides sex bits), the difference is how we get to the point of being comfortable expressing ourselves.  I used to (and still do a bit) worry a ton that I'm not trans enough for going to groups, but I haven't been excluded yet. 

I came out to my ma and grandma a bit ago, and they said, after thinking about it for a while, that they can't remember any signs that I might be trans at all from my childhood, besides that I was super sensitive and that I really liked purple.  Thinking back, I only remember anxiety from wanting to fit into homophobic/transphobic circles of friends.  There was no inner girl, just that I wouldn't express myself.  Puberty was a pretty null experience for me.  I didn't feel like I fit in anywhere, didn't make any serious friendships, didn't express myself, like, at all, felt cold inside, because I felt too anxious about expressing myself.  I got through it fine though. 

Quote from: jayne01 on May 19, 2016, 07:38:53 AM
Not necessarily wrong with me, but it is certainly a symptom of something.....

It will never fit someone else's narrative. We are all different. I am looking for common ground. We are all different, but not entirely 100% different. There has to be some kind of overlapping common experience that would place us in one group or another. It is that commonality I am trying to find.

I was really worried about that too, that I'm not really trans, just that I really wanted a solution.  It's a hard thing to shake. 

I think the commonality between trans people is they experience saying they're trans. 
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keira166

Quote from: jayne01 on May 21, 2016, 10:02:07 AM
In then get thoughts in my head wishing I was these women. When I think about it, I start to feel really creepy.

At least you know what you want to fix about yourself, not feeling creepy (via not wanting to want to be woman or maybe just by not feeling like its a creepy thing) [the second option is generally easier I think].  Why is it creepy to want to be someone else?  As long as you don't want to hurt them physically or emotionally, it shouldn't be creepy.  Creepy is almost a trigger word for me (I don't have PTSD, I don't want to trivialize it), because I've always felt creepy, but only a couple ppl ever actually told me I am (Those people did a number on me though).  I think its why I never expressed myself before questioning, for fear of being creepy.  It helped me to think about what creepy is.  Its a label for people to put on others who feel threatening in a subversive way.  Doesn't mean you're actually doing anything wrong, but its still so hurtful. 
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