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Things cis people do that hurt me everyday

Started by jossam, April 13, 2016, 04:23:26 PM

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jossam

Ok, I might use the words cissexism and cis normativity in this post, so let me first say what they mean, just in case someone hasn't heard of them.
Cissexism is the belief cis people are superior and standard, and that trans people are wrong or not real. It's not as hostile and as explicit as transphobia, but it can be the cause of subtly hostile behavior, for example saying that people with vaginas are all women and that people with penises are all men, that only women have periods or get pregnant, and other similar words/assumptions.

I'm really, really tired of seeing trans identities being erased and/or invalidated by everyday cissexismand cis normativity. I'm tired of seeing my identity explicitly denied or made invisible. I'm tired of the fact trans people seem to be so invisible sometimes, or, if someone acknowledges our existence, they call us "freaks" or "mentally ill", or "confused" or other bad terms.

When people misgender us, for example, they might defend themselves saying we're the wrong ones who can't accept our bodies, so we're the ones with an issue, not them. But would they say the same thing to someone who's physically disabled? Sometimes I consider my transsexualism as some kind of disability. It prevents me from doing all the things "normal" people do. It prevents me from wearing certain things, it prevents me from going certain places, sometimes I even avoid going to public restrooms.
I believe transsexualism to be a medical problem (not disease though! Mind you! I say problem because it affects us negatively on a personal level). It was proven it's not a mental illness, yet people keep calling us crazy. How does it make me feel? Horrible. Invalidated. Denied.

Let me ask for help here, because I find this place safe for me, for obvious reasons.

I don't declare war on cis people, but sometimes I get mad at them as a group, not at specific cis people (many of them are wonderful human beings, and I know huge cis supporters of the trans community), but at the whole group, in general. I know it's not something good to generalize like this, but please understand how I feel when most people deny my existence or explicitly invalidate it - and those people are all cis. A majority oppressing a minority. Classic human behavior.

Let me talk about a specific example. When I'm in a group and someone says "oh, we're all women here" and I'm there with them, it bothers me so much and it triggers me all kinds of dysphoric feelings: social dysphoria, physical dysphoria, anger, depression....things I struggle with everyday now. Because it's been more than 20 years being stuck with this body and it's starting to make me feel desperate and hopeless.
I don't understand why some people feel this overwhelming impulse to say things like "we're all women here" or something like that when in groups. It happens to me, it just happened today, a few hours ago. I wanted to scream "No, I'm not a woman, so you have a guy here!". I am pre-everything, I still have a completely female body, but seriously, this doesn't make me a woman. I wish cis people would understand! Body parts don't make us men or women, they don't even make us male or female since sex, just like gender isn't binary - we can have many combinations in only 1 body...hormone levels, genitalia, etc. so what do we pick to determine someone's sex, especially when they are transitioning? See what I mean by saying sex is not always so defined and not always binary? (not to mention intersex people, they are another example of how sex is not binary).

Calling someone a woman or a man just because of their body parts implies their gender identity and their sex are the same and align perfectly. It bothers me to no end when people automatically assume I am a woman just because I have a feminine name on my ID and I don't have a penis or a beard. I'm still a man, sure I still need to transition and stuff in order to feel good and more complete, but do my body parts really matter more than what's in my head? Really? Is this so important to cis people, my body, my genitalia? More than my personality and real gender identity?? Sigh.

My gender presentation is blatantly male/masculine. While I'm not a macho type of guy, my mannerisms are masculine. It amazes me how people still call me a woman and are so confident about it. When they see me dressing in blatantly male clothes, and having manly mannerisms! Trans erasure is so strong and deep-rooted in our society that people are completely wrapped in their wrong opinions and assumptions and won't accept to change them or even just challenge them. Assuming someone's gender is wrong. Always. Example: if I see someone whose ID says male, but has a clear feminine presentation, I think there are very high chances that person is trans. Same thing in the reverse case,female ID and masculine presentation. It has never happened to me in person, but if something like that happens someday, it would be normal for me to ask what gender they are (if they have one) and what pronouns I should use to refer to them. I know there are cis gay people who might "look trans" (very effeminate guys, butch lesbians, etc.) this is why I'd just always ask if I was so unsure. I'm aware of trans people....maybe because I'm one? Sure, but it's also common sense. Trans people exist, whether cis people want it or not  :P

I am also aware that trans people who are completely in the closet exist, so a trans woman might dress like a man and a trans man might dress like a woman, because they're completely in the closet and don't want to look "suspicious", but a simple pronoun correction or something like that can make things clear. But I'm careful about this stuff because I'm trans and I am aware of all of this. Asking someone's gender, especially when we are unsure would be a huge step towards trans friendliness! It shouldn't be weird or wrong!

Cis people take their gender for granted though, so they don't think about all these things that are pretty basic to me. And just how they take their own gender for granted, they also take everyone else's gender for granted. Still, I don't feel like excusing them completely. If we excuse them all the time and justify their ignorance, we hurt ourselves and our community. We should educate the ones who are open-minded enough to challenge cis normativity. Cis normativity hurts us trans people.

The casual everyday cissexism and cis normativity hurt me in terrible ways. It invalidates me or even denies my existence. When people say vagina = woman, they are invalidating me, calling me a woman, thus misgendering me and they do this to all the other trans men, especially the ones without a bottom surgery. Not to mention when they say XX chromosomes = woman. It's even worse because we can't change our chromosomes, so we'll always be women to ignorant people like that  ::)

No, I don't want everyone to accept me. But do you understand when I say it triggers all the negative feelings, and even self-hatred sometimes? When today they said "we're all women here" (it was a group therapy session) they made me feel invisible, denied, they made me feel fake too. It wasn't intentional, but it's a sign of how deep-rooted cis normativity is. I have a feminine name on my documents, so I'm a woman, right? WRONG. Still, I don't want to out myself to all the people there - so if it means accepting this to hide my true self and be protected, then fine.

I should probably talk to my therapist about it in private, though. No, she's not a gender therapist (there are no gender therapists in my area), but she sounds like a good, non-judgmental and open-minded therapist. I guess I should tell her the way certain things make me feel in my everyday life. I should tell her I'm trans, I should talk about all my trans-related issues, because I'm seeing her to understand my depression, and a huge part of my issues directly come from being a pre-everything trans guy. What do you think?

Sorry if it's a long post, sorry if there are grammar mistakes, I typed fast, it was a rant that originated from deep pain. I desperately need help to deal with all of this.
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Kylo

I understand how you feel. But people assume as a matter of course - it is how our brains are wired. I don't blame people for making split-second judgements of gender in a manner that our animal brains have been doing for millions of years. I do blame them for being asses if I ask them nicely to acknowledge my gender and then they don't. Because that's just a basic human courtesy. But I understand that if they read my face or voice as the wrong gender visually/aurally, especially for the first time when they are not aware of my situation, that isn't them being obstructive or invalidating. It's just human instinct to do so.

I do understand how it can be tiring. But you know, it happens to me and many other people everyday in a hundred other ways as well. People assume I'm single sometimes, and others they assume I must have kids because I'm in my 30s. They assume I'm unemployed because I'm always in to answer the door for my post when I'm not unemployed at all. Happens so much and so often that I've really had to stop thinking about how unintentionally assuming and potentially rude people can be and just write it off as "people being people". They aren't built to think too carefully about other people's feelings, even though we are social beings.

We're told a lot of the time that cisnormativity and heteronormativity is bad and negative to us but the fact is, we are rare compared to cis people. They are the norm, biologically, and we are not - not to say we are abnormal because we are creations of nature and evolution all the same, but there are many more of them and the majority views are usually the ones catered for just out of convenience. So I'm not really surprised they look blank, they don't understand, or they haven't heard much about trans people , or they 'forget' us. They just aren't thinking about us as often as we have to think about us, unless they're someone who either knows or lives with a trans person, or works with them professionally or voluntarily. Unless people have to deal with something like this specifically in their own lives, chances are they're always going to maintain a degree of ignorance with it until society educates them. It's the same with people who have other rarer medical conditions or disabilities etc. It's rare, so most people are just going to be ill-equipped to deal with it. 

But if you need helpful thoughts with this, just try to remember that your existence isn't and shouldn't be validated by the approval of other people.

One of the things that helped me recently was seeing that Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Because of that character Rocket Racoon. Now I know Rocket isn't trans, nor human, but he's a character who is unlike any other because he was taken and experimented on, and he's obviously a bit bitter and broken. There's nobody else in the universe like him, no other raccoons like him either. And he says that line "there's no thing like me except me," and he's proud of it. I appreciated that. I saw that in myself and I hope other people can see it in themselves too. We are a bit different from everybody else by being trans, but we don't need their validation to exist. Rocket wouldn't give a hoot what anybody called him, he'd just go on about his business all the same because it doesn't matter, he's a unique being. That's how I see it anyway.

I know there's always an underlying desire to belong and have people tell you the things you want to hear. But what if you didn't require that? Or not so much? Then nothing they might say or forget to say would hurt you. 
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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jossam

I know cis people are the majority and that for this reason they assume everyone they meet is cis. And I don't feel like my validation depends on other people. I'm different from the norm in many other ways. I belong to the goth subculture which is pretty mocked and criticized and considered unusual by most people....I'm on the autistic spectrum while the overwhelming majority of people aren't, etc....and these are just a few examples, I have many more. It's just trans-related behaviors that bother me.

As I said, I'll talk to my therapist. She's not a gender therapist so I might have to explain a few things? I don't know, she's still a psychologist so I assume they study gender identity issues too, but she will definitely help me detach myself from society's negative views of trans people, hence on negative views of me. She will definitely help me be more positive and stronger in general, so that my dysphoria issues (social and physical) won't prevent me from living a decent life. And then, when I'm ready to transition, I can do it....but until that moment, I want to be calm and functional. Dysphoria is obviously an issue and a sign we need at least some degree of transition (I want a full one, just saying), but we can't let it totally ruin our lives. I need to be functional enough to finish my studies and look for a job and be independent so I can transition. If I become too miserable and feel too ->-bleeped-<-ty to do things then how can I go ahead and transition? I feel like I fixed many of my issues, but there are some others that need to be fixed.
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Peep

I relate to most of what you said, and i find it and the way that some cis people discuss gender issues as if they don't have a gender identity - because they're default humans - very tiring.

But for the most part I'm really torn between hating the way we categorise people by presentation - i don't think it's right to assume that male or masculine presentation = male - and wanting to use it to make my life easier. If everyone read me as male just because I'm wearing dark plain colours, jeans and don't have visible breasts in my binder, my life would be much easier, but small chested, short haired cis women's lives would be much harder. I've always felt really out of place in groups of women or in 'womens spaces', but if I looked on the brighter side, it means that those women are accepting me regardless of my appearance or masculine energy. Which if i identified as a woman, would be a good thing. It's just a shame that I don't! I was always weirdly jealous of female groups that I've always been unable to be part of without really knowing why. It still doesn't feel great to be lumped in with the 'women' though.

Generally I try not to let the casual cis hetero normative society get me down, and look to spaces where it is being subverted, like certain parts of tumblr, youtube and here. The thing i really can't get past is people who KNOW that i'm trans and still can't stop trying to pigeon hole me as one thing or the other - either because they're 'testing' my masc, or because they're forgetting that I'm not female. It also bothers me when i see the cishet normative thinking filtering down to my younger siblings.
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Kylo

I just think you've got to live your own life and sometimes think small, not big. It's why I don't watch/read the news - it's too much negative information constantly whacking me in the face and if I think about it I've got enough to deal with just getting by in life without inviting the rest of society and its 'isms' and 'ists' into my living room for a debate, know what I mean? If I slow down, think about what is actually affecting me in my life, who is actually affecting me and not the people who may just be faceless internet trolls or anti trans news article writers or terrorists or god knows what else I feel far less oppressed and unhealthy about it. If I do read all this stuff all the time I become convinced the planet is a little goldfish bowl and I'm sharing it with absolute monsters who appear larger than life and about to devour me. Thinking about society a lot on the grand scale will do that to you.

Whether or not it's wise to retreat from the constant flow of information and ideas, I think it's been massively beneficial to my anxiety to think smaller, and appreciate that despite all the awful anti-trans stuff I hear all the time online, my own life is far from that horrendous because its own scale is small and insignificant. I'm not being oppressed, I'm not being attacked, (for which I am grateful)... and the worst I have to deal with is figuring this stuff out with my partner, and probably the odd funny look on the street. It's not ideal, but I appreciate it greatly.

Seeing your therapist will probably help. I can't say my therapist does much for me, but I think I'm an anomaly there... or maybe she is... but yeah, it's important you stay positive and focused on the goal. Finding ways to do that is paramount.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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jossam

I agree that "isolating" ourselves can be beneficial - but intense isolation can be a very bad idea, and we'd have to be intensely isolated not to feel cis heternormativity. But I'm not as bothered by anti-trans news as I am bothered by the casual cis heternormativity that gets thrown at me like the "we're all women here" thing. In other words, when it feels close to me or is directed at me. I'm trying to work on not letting that stuff bother me, but it's hard because I'm not an emotionless robot (sometimes I can be though, but when it comes to other people's feelings, not mine). I have feelings, I can't just ignore when people try to always lump me in with women. I can ignore it once, twice, but after the third time it gets tiring, exhausting, even depressing.

I can't avoid watching/reading the news. I'm super interested in politics, but it's more like international stuff, where trans people aren't mentioned. Also, my college career requires that I am informed about world news, politics and society/ies.
In my post I don't refer to random faceless trolls or faceless anti-trans people that I will never meet in my life, this is why I made the personal example of the "we're all women in this group" thing that happened to me in person, in my life. Sure, in my post I was talking about cis normativity in general, but just to rant and explain where the specific cis normativity I experience in my daily comes from. It comes from institutionalized cis normativity - then I get it in my everyday life when people automatically assume I'm a woman. I might suck at explaining myself though.

I appreciate that I'm not oppressed in the sense of how trans people are being oppressed in some US states with the absurd bathroom laws. But the fear of people denying a job or being ->-bleeped-<-s to me because of who I am is still there sometimes. I want to be realistic and not be in a dream world....I might meet wonderful people and wonderful employers who won't care about my transition and stuff, but I might also meet people who would deny me a job or fire me just for being trans...and I want to be psychologically prepared in case it happens. While most people I meet end up liking me and being nice to me, I still have to be careful because many others might be ->-bleeped-<-s....and I already met some, including one of my friends who said offensive things.

QuoteI try not to let the casual cis hetero normative society get me down, and look to spaces where it is being subverted, like certain parts of tumblr, youtube and here.
Good for you, but life out there in the world is not tumblr or youtube....again, I might meet an ignorant employer who might deny me a job and other stuff like that. I need to get out of my comfort zone at some point....to find a job, to find a house, to be independent. And it won't be like the trans friendly part of the internet. Still, I know I might and probably will meet good people who will accept me no matter what, like my friends do.

I've had my share of insults (and not just weird looks) in my life, and invalidating comments, so maybe that's why now I'm really tired and bitter. And pissed.

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jossam

QuoteBut for the most part I'm really torn between hating the way we categorise people by presentation - i don't think it's right to assume that male or masculine presentation = male
I don't think it's right either because I'm aware of cis women who look masculine, and this is why I said asking someone what gender they truly are is the only way to know for sure, and that this should become accepted as normal in everyday life and not just in some trans activism fantasy land.
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arice

People that post transphobic comments in discussions that have absolutely nothing to do with transgender rights. I am sick of "transgender is psychosis" commentary or "I think I'm a cat trapped in a human body" jokes. I understand that most cis gendered persons never question their gender but I with that more of them would question their ability to empathise... After all, I can't imagine not questioning my gender but I can empathise with them...

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arice

Quote from: jossam on April 13, 2016, 07:53:15 PM
I don't think it's right either because I'm aware of cis women who look masculine, and this is why I said asking someone what gender they truly are is the only way to know for sure, and that this should become accepted as normal in everyday life and not just in some trans activism fantasy land.
I also would like to see less emphasis placed on gender... I think we need to approach the point where assigning someone to a gender isn't the first thing we try to do... there are so many more important things about everyone.
I don't know if you've ever read the short story "X" by Lois Gould... I loved that story as a teenager. I wanted to be X and also to raise my future kids that way (of course my kids ended up being cis gendered and unwilling to participate in said social experiment).

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freebrady2015

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 13, 2016, 05:24:56 PM
I do understand how it can be tiring. But you know, it happens to me and many other people everyday in a hundred other ways as well. People assume I'm single sometimes, and others they assume I must have kids because I'm in my 30s. They assume I'm unemployed because I'm always in to answer the door for my post when I'm not unemployed at all. Happens so much and so often that I've really had to stop thinking about how unintentionally assuming and potentially rude people can be and just write it off as "people being people". They aren't built to think too carefully about other people's feelings, even though we are social beings.

We're told a lot of the time that cisnormativity and heteronormativity is bad and negative to us but the fact is, we are rare compared to cis people. They are the norm, biologically, and we are not - not to say we are abnormal because we are creations of nature and evolution all the same, but there are many more of them and the majority views are usually the ones catered for just out of convenience.

But if you need helpful thoughts with this, just try to remember that your existence isn't and shouldn't be validated by the approval of other people.


I know there's always an underlying desire to belong and have people tell you the things you want to hear. But what if you didn't require that? Or not so much? Then nothing they might say or forget to say would hurt you.

Don't really want to argue about this as we must just have different world views but just pointing out that someone assuming I'm unemployed is not quite the same thing as being misgendered. Being misgendered and subjected to cis-sexism all day every day is hurtful on a completely different level.

Cisnormativity is negative because it perpetuates a false reality that enables a culture that discriminates against, hates and others trans people. Gender and sex are not binary like most cis people believe, so in that sense cis people are not the norm as there is no norm.

While someone might not need the validation of others, it's impossible to remove yourself from your surrounding culture and reality.

For me it's too harmful to keep living in a world that misgenders me every day which is why transition is the only option.

Just my 2c
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AnxietyDisord3r

QuoteLet me talk about a specific example. When I'm in a group and someone says "oh, we're all women here" and I'm there with them, it bothers me so much and it triggers me all kinds of dysphoric feelings: social dysphoria, physical dysphoria, anger, depression....things I struggle with everyday now. Because it's been more than 20 years being stuck with this body and it's starting to make me feel desperate and hopeless.

Bingo, been there. Nothing like the "gals", "ladies", and my favorite, "isn't it great that you're the first woman to do ----".

It's been 23 years since my body betrayed me, and I've struggled with major depression on and off since then. I don't really blame cis people, they can hardly be blamed for not "getting" it. I kind of blame psychologists and sex researchers, though. They're the ones who put us in the DSM. They're the ones still spreading nonsense about how we're mentally ill. (Some of them can't stand that it's a developmental, neurological condition that psychology has nothing useful to contribute to for an individual patient.) Since the late 19th century in the West, very learned researchers have been categorizing and pathologizing sexual minority people. What before might have been seen as an individual quirk began to be seen as major social deviance. It was psychologists who convinced everyone that sexual orientation and gender identity were highly malleable.

Life's too short to just hate people. I believe most cis people are capable of being educated. When my identity was gay, I educated a lot of people, and so did thousands of other out gay people, and now people understand sexual orientation much better than they did before. I think the same is possible with trans, and we have help, we have an infrastructure already in place. It's actually easier this time around even though there are fewer of us.
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AnxietyDisord3r

Quote from: arice on April 13, 2016, 09:32:13 PM
People that post transphobic comments in discussions that have absolutely nothing to do with transgender rights. I am sick of "transgender is psychosis" commentary or "I think I'm a cat trapped in a human body" jokes. I understand that most cis gendered persons never question their gender but I with that more of them would question their ability to empathise... After all, I can't imagine not questioning my gender but I can empathise with them...

Well, it's totally outside of their scope of experience. It just befuddles them.

Many cis gendered people believe the myth that when you're a toddler and you're told that gender is penis/no-penis, and you look between your legs, then that is how gender identity is formed. I think more major media stories about children coming out will help with this misconception.

Your comment about the cat made me think, though. I've been wondering about the furry subculture. I'm not super versed in it, but I wonder if some people involved in it experience dysphoria and this is their way of dealing with it? There are other kinds of dysphoria than gender dysphoria. I mean, I get the impression that most people at a furry convention are just LARPing, and that's cool. (The only person I ever knew who was a furry didn't want to change his body but wanted his girlfriend to. #winning #feminism)
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Peep

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on April 15, 2016, 04:28:18 AM
Your comment about the cat made me think, though. I've been wondering about the furry subculture. I'm not super versed in it, but I wonder if some people involved in it experience dysphoria and this is their way of dealing with it? There are other kinds of dysphoria than gender dysphoria. I mean, I get the impression that most people at a furry convention are just LARPing, and that's cool. (The only person I ever knew who was a furry didn't want to change his body but wanted his girlfriend to. #winning #feminism)

Weirdly the thing that bothers me most about people comparing furries/ otherkin to trans people is that furries/ otherkin/ animals can still have a gender? surely you get afab furries that would rather be a male tiger or amab ones that don't identify with gender at all - who would be agender cats? I know you get people on tumblr that say that their 'gender' is 'fox' or 'cat' or whatever but I think they're not really meaning gender, they're meaning identity, and there are other forms of identity than gender. I don't know if there are people who identify both as trans or nonbinary and otherkin or furry, but I feel like if there are they're being overlooked haha

They're different things that are only compared because of the element of physically altering the body or presentation. But if an afab person gets pregnant their bodies change, and they become a parent, but they're not referred to as 'transitioning' because they're not (unless they also happen to be trans, but they're still separate things). If you're aging you're not 'transgenerational' and if you're dying you're not 'transvital'...
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Kylo

I'd guess furry has more in common with a fetish or hobby than an identity or orientation - at least that's how I seem to encounter it mostly online.

But then I'm told that when I was a young kid I definitely identified more with animals than people and was always claiming I wanted to be an animal and not a person. I don't remember it well but I'm told I was very anti-human.  :laugh: I wonder if it did have something to do with feeling inhuman due to trans trappings or something. I have no idea.

I can say now I don't have that feeling at all. Kids really seem to love animals though, and some really prefer them to human beings. I don't think it's appropriate for the furry culture to be identified alongside us, though. I think that would be a quite different thing, and probably doesn't help us much to be associated with some of that subculture. No offense to furries and scalies but it's typically a hobby/dress-up or fetish from what I see around, and not belonging under the LGBT umbrella politically.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Peep

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 15, 2016, 11:22:31 AM
But then I'm told that when I was a young kid I definitely identified more with animals than people and was always claiming I wanted to be an animal and not a person. I don't remember it well but I'm told I was very anti-human.  :laugh: I wonder if it did have something to do with feeling inhuman due to trans trappings or something. I have no idea.

This was me too - that's why i find it so tiring when people ask me what kinds of gendered toys I played with as a child. I played with Lion King things and I've never identified as a lion (although I did fight with my cis male friend over who got to be the boy lion...) I didn't grow up to be a horse or even work with them, but I certainly spent a lot of time pretending to be one as a child.
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lil_red

What fired me up more than anything is when someone says that a trans person does not need to transition, they need to accept their bodies and get over it.  To me this is the equivalent of telling an amputee or person born without a limb that they don't need a prosthetic, they need to accept their body and get over it.  We all know that giving an amputee a prosthetic greatly increases their quality of life. I just don't understand why people can't try to open their minds just a little and see that it is the same for Trans people and transitioning.
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Devlyn

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on April 15, 2016, 04:28:18 AM
Quote from: arice on April 13, 2016, 09:32:13 PM
People that post transphobic comments in discussions that have absolutely nothing to do with transgender rights. I am sick of "transgender is psychosis" commentary or "I think I'm a cat trapped in a human body" jokes. I understand that most cis gendered persons never question their gender but I with that more of them would question their ability to empathise... After all, I can't imagine not questioning my gender but I can empathise with them...

Well, it's totally outside of their scope of experience. It just befuddles them.

Many cis gendered people believe the myth that when you're a toddler and you're told that gender is penis/no-penis, and you look between your legs, then that is how gender identity is formed. I think more major media stories about children coming out will help with this misconception.

Your comment about the cat made me think, though. I've been wondering about the furry subculture. I'm not super versed in it, but I wonder if some people involved in it experience dysphoria and this is their way of dealing with it? There are other kinds of dysphoria than gender dysphoria. I mean, I get the impression that most people at a furry convention are just LARPing, and that's cool. (The only person I ever knew who was a furry didn't want to change his body but wanted his girlfriend to. #winning #feminism)

I know we have some fursuiters here on the site, and for some of them your comment is spot on. In light of that...

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on April 15, 2016, 11:22:31 AM
I'd guess furry has more in common with a fetish or hobby than an identity or orientation - at least that's how I seem to encounter it mostly online.

But then I'm told that when I was a young kid I definitely identified more with animals than people and was always claiming I wanted to be an animal and not a person. I don't remember it well but I'm told I was very anti-human.  :laugh: I wonder if it did have something to do with feeling inhuman due to trans trappings or something. I have no idea.

I can say now I don't have that feeling at all. Kids really seem to love animals though, and some really prefer them to human beings. I don't think it's appropriate for the furry culture to be identified alongside us, though. I think that would be a quite different thing, and probably doesn't help us much to be associated with some of that subculture. No offense to furries and scalies but it's typically a hobby/dress-up or fetish from what I see around, and not belonging under the LGBT umbrella politically.

...comments like this are less than helpful. I'm a crossdresser, not a furrie, but I don't have to go far around here to find someone labeling me as a fetishist. So how about we all stop it with the "fetish" label?

Thanks, I know you will.

Hugs, Devlyn
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arice

I have to say that I'm surprised that my cat comment has triggered an entire shift in the thread...
I want to clarify that my problem is with people making JOKES about being a cat trapped in a human body as a way to belittle trans experiences...

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Peep

Quote from: arice on April 20, 2016, 11:52:50 AM
I have to say that I'm surprised that my cat comment has triggered an entire shift in the thread...
I want to clarify that my problem is with people making JOKES about being a cat trapped in a human body as a way to belittle trans experiences...

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That's a doubly annoying thing as they're belittling furries AND trans people! "Who would want to be a CAT right??"

I also hear a lot of people commenting on how birds and tigers aren't homosexual or transgender. But they don't have a social construction of gender... and hundreds of animal species exhibit homosexual activity. Besides, birds and monkeys don't do art, literature, philosophy, science, technology, religion... People don't like to think of themselves as simple animals (unless they're furries ;) ) until they can use 'biology' (as they learned it in highschool) to tear down someone else. 
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arice

Quote from: Peep on April 20, 2016, 05:28:59 PM
That's a doubly annoying thing as they're belittling furries AND trans people! "Who would want to be a CAT right??"

I also hear a lot of people commenting on how birds and tigers aren't homosexual or transgender. But they don't have a social construction of gender... and hundreds of animal species exhibit homosexual activity. Besides, birds and monkeys don't do art, literature, philosophy, science, technology, religion... People don't like to think of themselves as simple animals (unless they're furries ;) ) until they can use 'biology' (as they learned it in highschool) to tear down someone else.
Exactly. I am a biologist so people who know me know not to try that tactic with me. I will tear it down with all the mating patterns observed in nature...


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