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Is there a difference between Transgender and Transsexual??

Started by Lori, October 19, 2007, 05:34:50 PM

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Lori

Candice Cayne was on "The View" and stated that transgenders and transsexuals were the same, and I'm a loss for words.

http://abc.go.com/daytime/theview/index

There are two parts to it, and she was asked that question and stated that there was no difference on the second clip.

"Both have the surgery to become a woman"??
"In my world, everybody is a pony and they all eat rainbows and poop butterflies!"


If the shoe fits, buy it in every color.
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melissa90299

Who is Candice Cane? That sounds like a name for a drag queen.


I just googled her...I guess she is a wannabe dominatrix?

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Wing Walker

Lori, would you please restate your question.

Thank you.

Wing Walker
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tinkerbell

Well, let's just follow what this site has to say about definitions:

Here are the proposed definitions. I would like feedback on them.


Quote from: Site Rules definitionsCommunity Definitions:


Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

Androgyne: a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical gender roles of their society.  Androgyne have a unique gender identity which is not of the traditional genders of male or female. Androgynes may identify as beyond gender, between genders, moving across genders, entirely genderless, and as any combination or all of these.

Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Drag kings: performers, usually gay women or transgendered men - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the male gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag kings often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Drag queens: performers, usually gay men or transgendered women - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the female gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag queens often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Intersexual: a person born with the full or partial sex organs of both sexes; with underdeveloped or ambiguous sex organs; a sex chromosome karyotype other than XX or XY; or sex hormone receptor problems which prevent normal absorption of Estrogen or Androgens. Intersexual persons may seek to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Significant other: for the purpose of this site, someone close to a person who is transgender. This may be a mother, father, son, daughter, sister, brother, family member, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

->-bleeped-<-: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.


Other terms:


Post-Ops: Transsexuals who have had surgical procedures to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex. For MTF transsexuals this is generally considered to be after Genital surgery (GRS, orchiectomy, and/or penectomy), for FTM transsexuals it is generally considered to be after top surgery.

Pre-ops: Transsexuals who desire to to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex, but have not yet had the surgical procedures for whatever reason.

This is not intended to be a glossary of all tg related terms. This just defines the make-up of the community on this site. 

tink :icon_chick:
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taru

Quote from: Kiera on October 20, 2007, 05:10:17 AM
. . . but I still feel my somewhat over simplified distinction can apply! Upon reading the list of occupants included under "transgender" logically only possibly "Intersexuals" & "Transsexuals" would in all likelihood ever wind up as post-operative. In other words . . .

Some TS inviduals may for various reasons remain non-op and e.g. some androgynes do get SRS.

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melissa90299

Quote from: taru on October 20, 2007, 06:53:05 AM
Quote from: Kiera on October 20, 2007, 05:10:17 AM
. . . but I still feel my somewhat over simplified distinction can apply! Upon reading the list of occupants included under "transgender" logically only possibly "Intersexuals" & "Transsexuals" would in all likelihood ever wind up as post-operative. In other words . . .

Some TS inviduals may for various reasons remain non-op...



We are going to get into that again?
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Christo

QuoteIs there a difference between Transgender and Transsexual??

there aint no difference.  they're both people
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katia

Quote from: melissa90299 on October 19, 2007, 11:51:09 PM
Who is Candice Cane? That sounds like a name for a drag queen.


ha ha ha ha ha  that was my first thought.  weird.

Quote from: christhere aint no difference.  they're both people

>sigh<  chris, chris, chris.  you're missing the point though..
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seldom

Quote from: Kiera on October 20, 2007, 03:50:02 AM
Quote from: Lori on October 19, 2007, 05:34:50 PM"Both have the surgery to become a woman"??
Lori, in my simple mind TS denotes "post-op" while TG is not . . .

I see Whoopi is trying to "kick butts", good for her, I very much need to do the same!

:icon_bunch:

TS does not denote post-op.  I am sorry, post-ops only attitude about being TS is a bit off base and elitist in some ways and incorrect.

Tink posted the commonly refered to definitions.  However, I have noticed those OUTSIDE of the trans and queer community use TG and TS interchangably, and it is used ONLY to refer to somebody who is transsexual.  No drag queens, CD, genderqueers, etc.  They basically narrow the definition in their minds. 
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melissa90299

Amy T, word definitions are fluid especially ones which are new. And different words have different meanings to different people. Some people still refer to transsexuals even post-op as ->-bleeped-<-s, some even simply call us "men."

Posted on: October 21, 2007, 11:20:07 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on October 20, 2007, 09:38:29 AM
Quote from: taru on October 20, 2007, 06:53:05 AM
Quote from: Kiera on October 20, 2007, 05:10:17 AM
. . . but I still feel my somewhat over simplified distinction can apply! Upon reading the list of occupants included under "transgender" logically only possibly "Intersexuals" & "Transsexuals" would in all likelihood ever wind up as post-operative. In other words . . .

Some TS inviduals may for various reasons remain non-op...



We are going to get into that again?

My implication being that will this turn into an argument about non-ops not being truly transsexual.
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tinkerbell

I found this answer somewhere else...what do you think?

QuoteMany people use these terms interchangeably, but they are NOT the same thing.

'Transgender' describes a person, male or female, who dresses, behaves or presents in a manner different from their gender norm. Transgender people may, or may not undergo counselling or psychiatric assessment, and any or may not have hormone therapy. They do not have genital surgery, but may have other surgeries.

'Transsexual' describes a person, male or female, born with a congenital neurological intersex condition (Benjamin's syndrome). Transsexual people will, where possible, undergo counselling, psychiatric assessment, hormone therapy and genital surgery to treat this condition. They may also have other surgeries

tink :icon_chick:
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Jaycie

Quote from: Tink on October 21, 2007, 04:51:44 PM
I found this answer somewhere else...what do you think?

QuoteMany people use these terms interchangeably, but they are NOT the same thing.

'Transgender' describes a person, male or female, who dresses, behaves or presents in a manner different from their gender norm. Transgender people may, or may not undergo counselling or psychiatric assessment, and any or may not have hormone therapy. They do not have genital surgery, but may have other surgeries.

'Transsexual' describes a person, male or female, born with a congenital neurological intersex condition (Benjamin's syndrome). Transsexual people will, where possible, undergo counselling, psychiatric assessment, hormone therapy and genital surgery to treat this condition. They may also have other surgeries

tink :icon_chick:

Unfortunately there are a few critical flaws in these 'definitions'.

They do not have genital surgery, but may have other surgeries. <- Is not necessarily true, a person may consider themselves neither male nor female but still wish to have some type of genital surgery. Therefore being 'transgendered'  but not necessarily transsexual. ( you could go into a whole other argument here about the 'true' definition of the term transsexual but it's for another place and time )

And here - born with a congenital neurological intersex condition (Benjamin's syndrome) <- While it really does sound nice on paper,  i haven't seen anything pointing to real proof of such a thing from an 'official' source. Claiming something that may or may not exist doesn't really help the cause until it's found to be true. ( of course i could be wrong on this point )  :)

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tinkerbell

To be honest, I don't like the so called term "Benjamin's Syndrome" either as it opens another pandora box.  Besides, there isn't any scientific proof that this is indeed true.  I guess we will stick to the site definitions then which are broader and more inclusive.  Thanks very much for your answers :)

tink :icon_chick:
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Jaycie

Quote from: redfish on October 21, 2007, 08:44:00 PM
You do realize that these are all random words that some random person thought up to describe things, right? They're a system of categorization that was put on several archetyped peoples.

You can play with tiny details all you want, but in the end, none of this is actually real or concrete. The difference between Transgender and Transsexual is the differences in lettering.



-Yet another poorly-worded opinion that redfish will probably get bored with and not defend


:)  It's a pretty obvious thing.  Then again,  all the words i'm typing and that you typed also fall into your categorization. Words describe concepts so it's best to make them either as accurate as possible or widely defined enough to hold the potential possibilities under them.  It's kind of the nature of the beast when you're dealing with language in general though.  :)
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Berliegh

Quote from: Lori on October 19, 2007, 05:34:50 PM
Candice Cayne was on "The View" and stated that and I'm sort of at a loss for words.

http://abc.go.com/daytime/theview/index

There are two parts to it, and she was asked that question and stated that there was no difference on the second clip.

"Both have the surgery to become a woman"??

I went to the site but couldn't find the link?
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taru

Quote from: Lori on October 19, 2007, 05:34:50 PM
"Both have the surgery to become a woman"??

This sounds very inclusive of FTMs ;)

Then again I don't think anyone becomes a woman by surgery, SRS just makes the body congruent with what the person is.
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Lori

Quote from: Berliegh on October 22, 2007, 03:50:37 AM
I went to the site but couldn't find the link?

You have to click on more videos...its to the right a couple of frames.


My point is that a Transsexual who says she represents us made this comment and I was surprised she made it. She is on Wednesdays on that new show "Dirty Sexy Money" with Alec Baldwin.

I know what the difference is, I just wanted the thoughts of the members here.
"In my world, everybody is a pony and they all eat rainbows and poop butterflies!"


If the shoe fits, buy it in every color.
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Fer

Usage is all over the place, which causes some confusion unfortunately. For medical and other precise usage questions, use a reference book. What I can address is the meaning of these terms in the political realm.

Most organizations that once were collectively referred to as gay rights have switched to using the letters GLBT or even longer labels like GLBTIBQQ. The use of the T is for Transgendered not Transsexual.

The reason for this is that Transgendered as a form of address is intended to include all transsexuals as well. It is intended to be a broader term that refers to all sexual minorities who have any discrepancy among the list of traits such as anatomical, chromosomal, self-identification, fashion, etc that makes their gender and/or sex different from what society would usually expect.

So, in summary, my answer is that (at least in political parlance), Transgender is a broad term for at least all of transsexuals AND all cross dressers AND even a few others beyond those two groups.

Intersex people sometimes object to being swept up in such a nebulous catch-all group, so many organizations have added an I for Intersexed as well.

Transsexual: Someone seeking (pre-op) or who has undergone (post-op) procedures (hormones, surgery, etc) to change their anatomical sexual characteristics to better reflect the gender they regard as their true self.

Cross dresser: Someone who expresses, utilizes, or presents as a different gender either in part or in full and either occasionally or routinely, but without seeking to permanently alter their physical sex.

Intersex: Someone whose anatomical or chromosomal sex is either inconsistent or ambiguous. Hermaphrodites are people born with some form of each type of genitalia, for example. Other examples include people with XY chromosomes, but a condition that blocks the ability to for Y chromosomes instructions from being applied, which creates an anatomical female.
The laws of God, the laws of man, He may keep that will and can; Not I. Let God and man decree Laws for themselves and not for me; And if my ways are not as theirs Let them mind their own affairs. - A. E. Housman
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Wing Walker

QuoteCandice Cayne was on "The View" and stated that transgenders and transsexuals were the same, and I'm a loss for words.

http://abc.go.com/daytime/theview/index

There are two parts to it, and she was asked that question and stated that there was no difference on the second clip.

"Both have the surgery to become a woman"??

This Cayne person does not speak for me.

I am transsexual, F to F.  I am not transgendered and I do not use that term to describe myself.  TG is a term invented by a British cross-dresser, one Virginia Prince.  She is not transsexual and never was transsexual.  I am.

There is a huge difference to me.  Transsexual is me.  Transgender is not.  I am pre-op and on the list for surgery next June.

Wing Walker
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Steph

It's unfortunate that we can't even agree amongst ourselves on how to define ourselves.  It's not surprising that others have the same difficulty.  We seem to have this incessant need to be a part of something, and when one definition doesn't seem to work others are invented or developed so that they can find their niche, after all we're all sentient beings, well most are.

While many may not share my views I fully support Benjamin and his theories on gender etc, and the definitions that he uses. I haven't seen any new or other theories that have changed my mind.

My opinion only...  Ya it may be controversial...

I have to go with the definition that TG is the umbrella term that encompasses our community and a TS is one who is/forms part of that community.  One area where the problems start is that there is not a group (not that we need one) that deals with gender as this is where the umbrella term comes apart.  Specifically; CD, TV, are lifestyles adopted by those who are generally happy with their birth gender but need the outlet provided by these activities.  TS, and Andro,  on the other hand are completely different, they are not activities.

CD and TV engage in a physical activity however, and this is where there is some controversy, TS have an incurable medical condition, that is treatable with medications and surgeries.  Some put forward the argument that being TS is an incurable psychological condition where the brain is not congruent with the body, and after many years of dealing with my own TS'ism I'm tending to agree.

Simply put I'm a woman.

Steph
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